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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 3, 2019 20:19:18 GMT
Id like to have a faction discussion on how everyone is either dealing or struggle vs. Tharn (specifically Iona). I've played a couple matchups and have yet to win and usually feel disadvantaged. The Iona Devourer's Host has some good advantages vs. a broad spectrum;
Mass Low Pow Shooting/high Pow shooting - Rapid Regen, tough, no knockdown, -5 rng, and +2 def really lower the effectiveness here. Maybe this is different in other factions, but WGI and our Jack shooting struggle here in my experience.
High Value/High output Models - Armored corps and jacks. I haven't played AC into Iona Tharn, but it doesn't give me a fuzzy feeling. These low model count armies are Tharn's bread and butter, those POW 18 charges get the most value here. 2-3 Tharn ravagers kill jacks reliably, key note on Feat turn. I suspect 15~ demo/shockies would fair the same.
Low Value/Massed Bodies - The mini feat is butter here, it might be possible to bait out, but an experienced player could work around this.
Lord Of The Feast has been discussed ad nauseam, and he a fantastic cover all piece that can ruin many plans. I don't want this to be a complaining thread, but rather a discussion on how Khador is approaching Circle. I say circle, because what may counter Tharn might also need to cover a BOO brick (Bradigus in my experience).
The conclusion I've come to is that Tharn is going to require a heavy control caster and struggle a bit with stealth. Khador's stable of control casters, Irusk2, Sorsch1, Old Witch1, Butcher3 (he kills so much I consider him control), and possibly considering harkevich as a counter feat.
-Sorscha1 is a strong contender. Her feat and icey grip are consistent and effective. She lacks hitting power and I'm not sure how to build her to counter brick lists. -Irusk2, I'm not sure his control feat is enough, Tharn have pathfinder in abundance as well. Tough is nice to stop the massacre, but not reliable I'd say. -Old Witch1 is interesting, she has the capability to kill tharn herself, her feat has nice control aspects but can be unreliable, and struggles into high armor. -harkevich. Have not been a fan recently, but Armor 23 jacks could really stand up vs the Tharn Iona alpha, and also play well into a circle BOO pairing. -Butcher3, depending on his list he can play into almost anything.
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mrtuna
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by mrtuna on Mar 3, 2019 20:24:47 GMT
You forgot OW2 and zerkova1, both are very controlly
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 3, 2019 20:44:30 GMT
You forgot OW2 and zerkova1, both are very controlly Zerkova 2 for sure, OW2 with reihnholdt could be a thing.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 3, 2019 20:44:33 GMT
Sorscha 1 - Wolves of Winter. Your Circle Player will mend their evil ways and stop playing Skew QUICKLY.
And with Brittle Frost and Doomies you can sucessefully take on all but the worst bricks....and you have your other list (AC; Butcher 3) for those. Seriously, S1 is a near hard counter for Tharn. Takes a BIT of skill but honestly not a lot in a game with pre measuring - just don't be near enough to the bird's (if they have the Storm raptor)'s Start pulse to allow her to get shot off the board. Otherwise, laugh at their frustration to be locked out of scenario and taking doomies to the face (with hopefully the escort their for the bubble).
There MIGHT be other answers - but this is by far the best one.
Seriously, I think you have ALL the answers you will need.
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vlad
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 53
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Post by vlad on Mar 4, 2019 3:12:36 GMT
I don’t think AC is a good drop into Iona1, but I think Malakov2 can play a 50%ish game. I played twice and both were close games (won both, barely). Viktor putting two fire AoEs helps as Rapid Healing doesn’t work against the fire damage, and small based units can only spread so much. Malakov2’s feat, properly timed, can blunt the damage output of Iona1’s list making it a long slog fest where Malakov2 can push out ahead.
I’ve currently built Sorscha1 in JotW as a Circle drop, but have yet to try it out against Iona1. I think Sorscha1 can work well against Iona1 in any theme, and with the ability to control one unit every turn, I don’t think Tharn have the punch to take down 75 point of Khador jacks, thus I wanted to try JotW first, especially since local players are using Iona1 as their primary ARM cracker at the moment.
Another line of thought I plan on testing is Karchev1 jack spam in JotW and Butcher3 in WGK or JotW with 4-5 jacks, of those 2-3 clam jacks. I think those might have better match-ups into Wurmwood then a Sorscha1 list with a Viktor, while also being difficult for Iona1 to deal with.
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 4, 2019 4:12:30 GMT
sand20go, I like this idea lot, the more I think about the matchup the more I like it. Sorscha does nothing directly for models and works mostly through freezing grip, her feat, and FOW. Doomies can't benefit directly and do a lot of work without too much assistance. I'm going to give this a try, already dojo'ing some lists. vlad, I played Karchev WGK with 4 jacks and a gun carriage into Iona. Not a pretty matchup. I think the issue with JoTW is that Iona/DH can chew through 75 points of our jacks, few tharn bring down our jacks consistently. Past feat turn if they do enough damage to our jacks 2-3, then it's going to be a slow fight on either side. The problem I found is scenario, Tharn push very hard up the board. B3 on the other hand, I think he is a great matchup into most things (except harbinger/Faithless masses, rough). He was my next go to beyond trying S1 WoW now.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 4, 2019 5:13:25 GMT
When people talk about jack spam, what jacks are they actually talking about? Marauders? Is it worth running Devastators instead? Under either a damage buffing caster like B1 or Karchev (btw can Tharn be knocked down?), a resilience buffing caster like Hark, Strak2, or Malakov2, or under a caster who does the work himself (B3)? Also, does Rain of Death trigger Rapid Healing?
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Post by borderprince on Mar 4, 2019 8:17:55 GMT
Another for Sorscha1 in Wolves. Doomreavers like medium infantry and can handle a reasonable amount of ARM/boxes, especially if you have enough of them.
And don't forget Kodiaks - Vent Steam is not an attack, so doesn't trigger Rapid Healing. Vent Steam first, then finish off with regular attacks (shocking - our fighting in forests jack works well against people who fight in forests!). Unfortuantely for Soul Samurai this doesn't work for Rain of Death - it is a *Attack, and Rapid Healing triggers off attacks.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 4, 2019 9:54:57 GMT
Unfortuantely for Soul Samurai this doesn't work for Rain of Death - it is a *Attack, and Rapid Healing triggers off attacks. I suspected as much, just couldn't be bothered to check myself. Of course it also does way more damage if you can make base contact, and with Bulldoze can in theory help getting more models in base contact anyway. But yeah, Kodiaks are cheaper, have Pathfinder, can push the lines of engagement farther forwards, aren't scared of making attacks like Devastators, and make more attacks. The question is what's more important here: all that, or having a better chance of surviving the alpha?
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Post by hocestbellum on Mar 4, 2019 9:58:21 GMT
When people talk about jack spam, what jacks are they actually talking about? Marauders? Is it worth running Devastators instead? Under either a damage buffing caster like B1 or Karchev (btw can Tharn be knocked down?), a resilience buffing caster like Hark, Strak2, or Malakov2, or under a caster who does the work himself (B3)? Also, does Rain of Death trigger Rapid Healing? You should know by now that PP doesn't do Tough without anti-KD tech any more! The shaman has Hunter's Grace which prevents it within CMD. With regards to the jacks, I've wondered if Berzerkers have a place as a first line. They're cheap enough to be expendable, and they hit hard enough to paste a Ravager. It means they can't really be ignored. If they use the feat to either destroy or tank them, then happy days! Inaccuracy could be an issue, but I'd not be worried about rolling a 7 with two attacks and berserk. And at an outside push, the explosion is not an attack and affects a huge area. I'd need to get it on the table to see how it plays out; it seems like good positioning would be key, and it's hard to guess how that might look in-game. As for the overall thing; Sorscha1 is great into any infantry that isn't Storm of the North. I think AC might work if you were playing a caster that can deny charges, like Irusk2. It seems that if you can disrupt their massive feat charge then they've not really got the hitting power to deal with things. The difference between a boosted P15-18 and an unboosted P13-16 is massive. That's just theory, though; my Circle opponent switched to playing Kill Team, so I'm well behind the meta there.
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igor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 122
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Post by igor on Mar 4, 2019 11:29:51 GMT
I know this is wishfull thinking but bear with me. If only Assault Kommandos said "Winter Guard" somewhere, I would exchange my Infantry unit i WGK in an instant. Strangle Gas would solve all of our problems in an instant, and having Joe giving them For the Motherland would be fantastic. Anyway, on a slightly more serious tone. Are there any good way of giving our Assault Kommandos a +2 to hit (besides aiming)? RAT 6 agains Ravagers are just on the average mark. I have been thinking something like this to solve the Ravager infestation (a modification of my standard WGK list):: Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand [Irusk 2] Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Greylord Adjunct [4] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Winter Guard Artillery Kapitan [3] Assault Kommandos (min) [10] Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [0(4)] Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [4] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [4] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (min) [8] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (min) [8] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] I am not sure I'm happy. All Winter Guards are now min-units But, perhaps I'll give it a try.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 4, 2019 12:00:02 GMT
Are there any good way of giving our Assault Kommandos a +2 to hit (besides aiming)? Strakhov1 still gives them +1 right? Is that a "good" way? His feat will also help with terrain and getting the alpha, maaaaaaybe he has game here? ... I have no freaking clue.
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Post by borderprince on Mar 4, 2019 12:47:58 GMT
With regards to the jacks, I've wondered if Berzerkers have a place as a first line. They're cheap enough to be expendable, and they hit hard enough to paste a Ravager. It means they can't really be ignored. If they use the feat to either destroy or tank them, then happy days! Inaccuracy could be an issue, but I'd not be worried about rolling a 7 with two attacks and berserk. And at an outside push, the explosion is not an attack and affects a huge area. I'd need to get it on the table to see how it plays out; it seems like good positioning would be key, and it's hard to guess how that might look in-game. So maybe a Vlad1 WGK list? Use the Advance Moves for your front line of Berserkers, who get a nice S&P buff and have a decent threat range via feat (in theory they out-threat Ravagers, at least without Vengeance moves, pathfinder issues and so on). You could get 4 Berserkers, 3 Kodiaks and a Marauder, 4 WG artillery pieces and a min unit of sac pawns in a 75 point list.
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Post by hocestbellum on Mar 4, 2019 13:44:40 GMT
Well, Vlad1 certainly runs them well, but I a) wouldn't take 4 and b) wouldn't use the feat on them. Or at least, not for the sacrifice play thing.
In my mind, I've got the Berserkers out in front; if I use the feat on them then I don't get to use it on my more reliable jacks, meaning they're stuck with a threat of 8". By keeping the feat in reserve, I can keep my second line of jacks a few inches further back, keeping them safer and leaving my opponent in a potentially tricky position; if he doesn't deal with the Berserkers they can hit the heart of his army. If he does deal with the Berserkers everything he sends gets wrecked by my second line.
But I wouldn't want to spend loads of points on the Berserkers; 2-3 would do, I think. I didn't even really mean it as part of a jack-heavy list. I'd be interested to see what it could achieve in a list where you don't need the jacks for heavy lifting.
I also worry that you've designed that list just for the Tharn; topping out at P16 could mean trouble against tougher bricks or jack-heavy lists.
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Post by borderprince on Mar 5, 2019 13:04:50 GMT
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