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Post by sand20go on Mar 4, 2019 16:02:16 GMT
To be of a critical voice, even though I like the general idea. What about Menoth? Imo if you go with S1 WoW you have a problem fighting Menoth since S1 might very well work into new Harbi, but I don't see it working into HR at all. Also the second list needs to cover all variations of shooting or you loose to any Cygnar, CG, Rasheth out there Great points and on my mind. As much as for my benefit (remembering models and things) as for others.... CG. We agree. Wolves in this version is going to struggle with "spray for days" and Huge bases. Ergo the other list (in my case Vlad2, for others very possibly Irusk2) needs to be tuned in a way to take those on. However, with Maurader and Strike Tanker (and arguably the Seige Chariot) we have some things that can "punch up" and put significant damage on things like the Vulcan or the Railess at Range. See above for the math if you can get 2 strike tankers and a Drakhun onto a Railess. Interesting turn. Feat and put out 3 superserums on the above and try to kill one Railess. Remainder (hopefully at least 2) go on Shocks to move up as road blocks to stop charges onto Victor who then forces the Vulcan or other jack to "back up". Next turn you try to shoot the next Railess off the table/Bully The Vulcan back. The other advantage is that absent 3 units I think you can truly consider going without Altanas, putting in Saxon and freeing up additional points so you can get closer to quad tankers. I got a month to do some testing. Pie plates of nope can be your friend given correct positioning. Cygnar - Would seem to be getting, absent Gravediggers, AC and then that creates challenges for them because of the arm and box skew. Again, with some fine tuning of the Vlad2 list you have the things to go hunting Stormstriders or Colls. Not worried. Menoth - Here I think we have some challenges. The book's 5 inch bubble insn't great for no stationary but helps and keeps S1 honest. No Spells within 10 bigger as that means FIVE doomies committing to the stupid thing and that is a BAD trade. Gravus is an even bigger issue without shooting. (thus the argument for destroyers) as no stationary on Exemp. models creates serious challenges in EI. Add in Self Sacrifice and Damage sharing to shut down zerk and I think that the Wolves into Menoth seems "bad" and thus you have to try to wring out the win with AC. Again, Huge base hunters and hoping for a good drift from a rocket pod into some demos for a sweet sweet vengenance move to take out a Coll. Now it should be said that with Beast-09; Ruin and Sorsha1 herself the list CAN play for assassination. B with shield guard, doomies and Hyperaggressive creates some real questions for people. Ruin is Ruin. S1 is S1 and while you don't have "pop and drop" in the list you Still can put out a decent amount of damage and force their caster to stay back. Can AC cover all? Well I think I will take my chances. Remember, just the PRESENCE of S1 and 30 doomies is going to force a lot of your opponents to drop their dudes be gone list unless they out chicken your chicken (que Vizzini from Princess Bride). By fine tuning your AC to take on huge bases at Range I think that you start to be OK here). PS. You mentioned Winds. And while the shooting CAN be a challege I would point out..... A) Spell ward means no influence of note, bloodmark, or breath of corruption (except on own models or through drifts) B) No real way to stop freezing of their units. C) Fog and Clouds means def 15 doomies. That isn't necessarily something the turtles want to see and often can miss D) GENERAL rareness of sprays (this lists kryponite would be the Railess, for example, or the Bird for the Autohitting pulse) is a challenge. Sentinals are a recognized issue (see Makeda game above) E) As the above games suggest - Scenario. Use a unit (or 2) to get deep and jam/contest. Score. And then hold back a unit (or 2) to kill off things he sends into your's. Doomies with Brittle frost punch significantly above their weight. For laughes and chuckles ran Buy or Boost. 6 doomies and the Koldun Lord (to land the Brittle) have a 91.5% chance of killing an undamaged Derp. If he wasn't able to medicate and it has 3 damage, the odds go up to 95.6%. So force him in - by freezing/killing the stuff that would get there. Derp commits. Kill Derp. Refreeze the infantry.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Mar 4, 2019 21:36:07 GMT
Hey sand20go , did this ever come up? Nobody seems to be talking about it (unless I missed it) Sorscha_1 can start the game with Upkept FoW Adjunct can help Sorscha_1 upkeep Fog of War all game long Adjunct can also help Sorscha_1 ignore her own FoW thanks to Eyeless sight So she can basically stay at DEF 20 vs Shooting all game long, and spell sling like a boss edit: fixed DEF cause my selective dislexia got the better of me
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Post by smoothcriminal on Mar 4, 2019 21:56:24 GMT
Nice. Snow queen is back.
Grievous on doomies should counter self-sacrifice or anything that stops berserk really.
I wouldn't be too afraid of anti-freeze aura as long as it's limited. Opponent can't keep both flanks covered by it. Trolls with innate anti-freeze would be a problem but doomies with grievous are also good against them.
S1+adjunct+kolduns+ternion+Ruin+grievous counter every single protective tech out there. The only things you are afraid of are those that can remove doomies enmasse from outside their threat of 13". And even if things go bad for you the Sorscha get out of jail free assassinate card is still on the table and opponent has to respect it or lose.
At least one jack definitely should be a shooting one.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 4, 2019 22:03:46 GMT
Hey sand20go , did this every come up? Nobody seems to be talking about it (unless I missed it) Sorscha_1 can start the game with Upkept FoW Adjunct can help Sorscha_1 upkeep Fog of War all game long Adjunct can also help Sorscha_1 ignore her own FoW thanks to Eyeless sight So she can basically stay at DEF 19 vs Shooting all game long, and spell sling like a boss It never came up but it is an important interaction.
And not Def 19 but Def 20 (base 16; Windrush+2; Concealment +2). She really is hard to hit.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 4, 2019 22:05:45 GMT
At least one jack definitely should be a shooting one. Maybe. I am not sure that is as clear cut as that. The opportunity to get BOTH Ruin and Beast on the table at the same time is a really tempting one. Beast because of shield guard and Ruin, as you point out, for dispel and more spell hate. I don't win game 3 without 2 beatsticks.
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 4, 2019 22:29:22 GMT
At least one jack definitely should be a shooting one. Maybe. I am not sure that is as clear cut as that. The opportunity to get BOTH Ruin and Beast on the table at the same time is a really tempting one. Beast because of shield guard and Ruin, as you point out, for dispel and more spell hate. I don't win game 3 without 2 beatsticks. I like ruin, but the possibilities with a destroyer in this list are so powerful. With adjunct, bad santa, and forge seer your destroyer is sniping out solos everywhere. Even lord of the feast needs to be scared, key solos (yes you tharn shaman) are getting bopped on the head. He can start to pull his weight with the proper support.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 5, 2019 3:00:14 GMT
I like ruin, but the possibilities with a destroyer in this list are so powerful. With adjunct, bad santa, and forge seer your destroyer is sniping out solos everywhere. Even lord of the feast needs to be scared, key solos (yes you tharn shaman) are getting bopped on the head. He can start to pull his weight with the proper support. Do you think he should be marshaled on the forgeseer?
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 5, 2019 3:12:16 GMT
I like ruin, but the possibilities with a destroyer in this list are so powerful. With adjunct, bad santa, and forge seer your destroyer is sniping out solos everywhere. Even lord of the feast needs to be scared, key solos (yes you tharn shaman) are getting bopped on the head. He can start to pull his weight with the proper support. Do you think he should be marshaled on the forgeseer? I'd say no, for points reasons and power up. Puppet master boosted RAT 4s can hit upwards of def 16 with a good deal of reliability. If he aims, say goodbye.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 5, 2019 4:09:37 GMT
I was worried about the points - spamming Doomies seems less effective if you soend too many points on other stuff. I just hate to give up that Blessed. Crush is nice too when you have Boundless Charge.
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 5, 2019 4:24:18 GMT
Blessed is nice, but what's better is guidance from the adjunct, who also likes sorscha1. Plus that koldun lord who doesnt need to feed focus to the destroyer can brittle frost something in similar effect to crush. The destroyer seems to use the WoW support extremely effective.
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Post by borderprince on Mar 5, 2019 13:03:44 GMT
Maybe. I am not sure that is as clear cut as that. The opportunity to get BOTH Ruin and Beast on the table at the same time is a really tempting one. Beast because of shield guard and Ruin, as you point out, for dispel and more spell hate. I don't win game 3 without 2 beatsticks. I like ruin, but the possibilities with a destroyer in this list are so powerful. With adjunct, bad santa, and forge seer your destroyer is sniping out solos everywhere. Even lord of the feast needs to be scared, key solos (yes you tharn shaman) are getting bopped on the head. He can start to pull his weight with the proper support. Thinking about it, you can get this:
Sorscha1
-Ruin
-Destroyer -Adjunct
Doomreavers + UA
Doomreavers + UA
Doomreavers
Doomreavers
Doomreavers
Ternion (free)
Koldun Lord
Koldun Lord
And still have 13 points left over. You've lost one Ternion and Beast'09. No Forgeseer, but I'm not sure he's necessary for the Destroyer - the Adjunct gets you magic weapons, and while Blessed is a lovely ability, I don't think it's essential.
If you really want a shield guard you can get a Rager and either another Escort or a unit of mechaniks. If you're less fussed for the shield guard, give Sorscha a Juggernaut or Kodiak for more hitting power. If you're planning on playing into Tharn, probably the Rager (for Lord of the Feast) and another Escort (more healing shut down). Looks like the battlegroup and the Adjunct vs free Ternion are the real points of flex/disagreement here.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 5, 2019 14:40:12 GMT
There are lots of nice moments to get spot removal. So I am not sure that one example is going to change ANYONE's mind but.....
Assuming that the LofT has loaded up with corpses from the pot (thus Def 12; ARM 19; 8 boxes) you have a 7.8% chance of 1 shooting him. If you hit BrittleFrost it is a 49% chance. And you BETTER hit that coinflip because if you don't you can expect to lose whatever is around the destroyer or the koldun lord. This assumes 2 focus.
While better against the Shaman you only have a 70% chance of forcing the tough roll (so in combination 46%). Again, best hit it cause now your destroyer is likely very close to the Tharn....so you probably have frozen them ANYWAY and/or popped the feat so that the Shaman isn't casting his Hunters Grace the next turn so no knock down.
It is counterintuitive. Sorscha is SUPPOSED to have some range to play the old school (Mark1?) Freeze and Drop game. And perhaps, over time, you will want that. But at least SO FAR in testing I think the advantages of having 2 serious beat sticks, with reach, and means of increasing output really is an advantage. ONe thing I would NEVER give up in this sort of build is Beast (or the 5th unit of Doomies). The 5th unit proved critical because doomies die. I tried 4 with Zerkova1 and I just never had the staying out. Beast with Sheild Guard and Hyperaggressive and Cold immunity just creates some miserable situations for your opponent - Shoot at doomies and get shield guarded and possibly get a Beast to Face. Don't shoot and get Doomies to face. Those are the choices I LOVE giving opponents.
And forgeseer is there so I can BC both jacks and windrush and still do work....or Freezing G, WR and still be fully loaded. Indeed, because of how utterly uber bad santas are you can empower three times - allowing you to in the above situation fully load up both jacks.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 5, 2019 14:45:22 GMT
I like ruin, but the possibilities with a destroyer in this list are so powerful. With adjunct, bad santa, and forge seer your destroyer is sniping out solos everywhere. Even lord of the feast needs to be scared, key solos (yes you tharn shaman) are getting bopped on the head. He can start to pull his weight with the proper support. Thinking about it, you can get this:
Sorscha1
-Ruin
-Destroyer -Adjunct
Doomreavers + UA
Doomreavers + UA
Doomreavers
Doomreavers
Doomreavers
Ternion (free)
Koldun Lord
Koldun Lord
And still have 13 points left over. You've lost one Ternion and Beast'09. No Forgeseer, but I'm not sure he's necessary for the Destroyer - the Adjunct gets you magic weapons, and while Blessed is a lovely ability, I don't think it's essential.
If you really want a shield guard you can get a Rager and either another Escort or a unit of mechaniks. If you're less fussed for the shield guard, give Sorscha a Juggernaut or Kodiak for more hitting power. If you're planning on playing into Tharn, probably the Rager (for Lord of the Feast) and another Escort (more healing shut down). Looks like the battlegroup and the Adjunct vs free Ternion are the real points of flex/disagreement here.
Yes. The near mandatory pieces with her are the 5 units of doomies, the adjunct and the 2 bad santas. That is 62 points (prior to freebees). After that I think you have the flexibility the theme allows. Ternions are nice (cause 3 free things are always nice) but could be forgone to start adding things like Fenris (good) or E1 (great with stationary).
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 5, 2019 15:53:18 GMT
I'm Hesitant on bringing Ruin. I love the jack, but I love beast 09 more with S1, and without testing the destroyer he still seems like a great utility piece. Im fighting myself between fenris and alexia, but this is what i cooked up.
War Room Army
Khador - Hounds of The Queen
Theme: Wolves of Winter 3 / 3 Free Cards 74 / 75 Army
Kommander Sorscha - WJ: +29 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Beast 09 - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Destroyer - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
Alexia, Mistress of the Witchfire - PC: 7 - Thrall Warrior Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 4
Greylord Ternion - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
THEME: Wolves of Winter ---
GENERATED : 03/05/2019 10:51:34 BUILD ID : 2071.19-02-05
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Post by sand20go on Mar 5, 2019 16:29:10 GMT
I'm Hesitant on bringing Ruin. I love the jack, but I love beast 09 more with S1, and without testing the destroyer he still seems like a great utility piece. Im fighting myself between fenris and alexia, but this is what i cooked up. War Room Army Khador - Hounds of The Queen Theme: Wolves of Winter 3 / 3 Free Cards 74 / 75 Army Kommander Sorscha - WJ: +29 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Beast 09 - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Destroyer - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) Alexia, Mistress of the Witchfire - PC: 7 - Thrall Warrior Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 4 Greylord Ternion - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 THEME: Wolves of Winter --- GENERATED : 03/05/2019 10:51:34 BUILD ID : 2071.19-02-05 Depending on the Alexia1 rules I like this a lot. Your Hellfire I think adds the "punch" to provide the additional range power that would allow you to freeze and drop if they go too low on focus....or "option A" of having S1 freeze; Destroyer shoot; and then you spit out 3 thralls after an 8 inch move to go charge and kill their caster. At least as I understand things it gets even sillier (but thematic!) as you could have a doomie move up and kill 3 of his mates, feed alexia souls, allow her to activate to do the above and then GG your jaw dropped opponent. LIKE IT!
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