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Post by sand20go on Apr 15, 2019 14:38:29 GMT
He'll make his points back for sure if you let yourself get charged by him. Which admittedly can be pretty hard to play around sometimes. If you just bird and then the pseudo thresher early game then that's generally a bad trade for a piece that can sometimes double his return with the right buffs. It does take usually 9-13 pts of models to make him do the crazy and assassinate a caster so there's that to consider. If you're clever with your game you can keep your caster safe from take out the support so the threat isn't quite on the same level. I find he struggles to take out high value pieces like junior casters without his buffs. He will struggle to get past the armour 20 of sevvy0 for instance unless he's full of corpses. I've taken to just running the pot with him, and commit him turn 3. He's full of corpses and then has the puppet master from the pot / telekenisis from Krueger 2 / hunters mark for the insanity. While you're not scalping out the important stuff early game, he will usually kill enough infantry to make him worth it. Particularly against stuff like menoth who can be slow in certain builds. While I see where people are coming from, from the stand point of "he's killing my caster without even thinking", maybe don't put your caster in feast range camping next to nothing. If you do the math then a fairly light caster camping 4 (which is pretty standard) will live pretty much all the time. I agree that he's got serious output with the right buffs and can spot remove from the other side of the table, but legion also do that for the entire game with ravagores. Once you pop your feast off, he's done because he's always dead the following turn. Ready for the ensuing mouldy internet cabbage and flames to start pouring out of my computer. But with the pot isn't he likely full at least 2/3rd of the time on turn 1? I am in complete agreement that absent error (which is understandable under clock but "fixable" by experience and learning) he should not be getting TOO many bottom 1/top 2 assassinations. Probably 90% gotcha's and then 10% brain farts). My concern is that I can't think of another elite solo that can kill so much in such a big bubble. Sure, you have things like Yuri who can get work done with thresher but it is in a 11 inch bubble that is VERY easy to predict. Meanwhile, absent a forest to abuse, Yuri is SIGNIFICANTLY more squishy and to get work out of him you have to accept "risks". My own opinion is that the game isn't improved by having a very low risk/high reward solo that should, absent either a complete brain fart OR WTC level positioning on clock on the unpack, at a minimum earn his points back. I have to believe that we are going to see a nerf. Possibly one of a number of them given Circle's "overperformance" in several recent cons and attractiveness to players with multiple armies to play.
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snap
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Post by snap on Apr 15, 2019 16:03:03 GMT
He'll make his points back for sure if you let yourself get charged by him. Which admittedly can be pretty hard to play around sometimes. If you just bird and then the pseudo thresher early game then that's generally a bad trade for a piece that can sometimes double his return with the right buffs. It does take usually 9-13 pts of models to make him do the crazy and assassinate a caster so there's that to consider. If you're clever with your game you can keep your caster safe from take out the support so the threat isn't quite on the same level. I find he struggles to take out high value pieces like junior casters without his buffs. He will struggle to get past the armour 20 of sevvy0 for instance unless he's full of corpses. I've taken to just running the pot with him, and commit him turn 3. He's full of corpses and then has the puppet master from the pot / telekenisis from Krueger 2 / hunters mark for the insanity. While you're not scalping out the important stuff early game, he will usually kill enough infantry to make him worth it. Particularly against stuff like menoth who can be slow in certain builds. While I see where people are coming from, from the stand point of "he's killing my caster without even thinking", maybe don't put your caster in feast range camping next to nothing. If you do the math then a fairly light caster camping 4 (which is pretty standard) will live pretty much all the time. I agree that he's got serious output with the right buffs and can spot remove from the other side of the table, but legion also do that for the entire game with ravagores. Once you pop your feast off, he's done because he's always dead the following turn. Ready for the ensuing mouldy internet cabbage and flames to start pouring out of my computer. But with the pot isn't he likely full at least 2/3rd of the time on turn 1? I am in complete agreement that absent error (which is understandable under clock but "fixable" by experience and learning) he should not be getting TOO many bottom 1/top 2 assassinations. Probably 90% gotcha's and then 10% brain farts). My concern is that I can't think of another elite solo that can kill so much in such a big bubble. Sure, you have things like Yuri who can get work done with thresher but it is in a 11 inch bubble that is VERY easy to predict. Meanwhile, absent a forest to abuse, Yuri is SIGNIFICANTLY more squishy and to get work out of him you have to accept "risks". My own opinion is that the game isn't improved by having a very low risk/high reward solo that should, absent either a complete brain fart OR WTC level positioning on clock on the unpack, at a minimum earn his points back. I have to believe that we are going to see a nerf. Possibly one of a number of them given Circle's "overperformance" in several recent cons and attractiveness to players with multiple armies to play. 1. You overestimate my dice. Also I'd like to add I was running him in COTW for this example. But yes definitely full on turn 1 probably if in dev host. 2. Well in our faction alone we have the bloodweaver night witch, which with lightning tendrils will mulch a lot more than LOTF. So they are out there, we just can't think of any right now. I remember gerlack slaughterborn doing similar tings to me. LOTF still needs a ton of support to be considered game breaking and by the time you take that into account it's not that bad. Other options of a similar calibre will tend to need the same kind of support. 3. Nerf is right. I think he'll totally be getting a nerf. The thing that puts him over the edge is the ability to trivially kill low camp casters by getting through their armour. So take away the strength buff from death powered.
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Post by sand20go on Apr 15, 2019 17:05:13 GMT
2. Well in our faction alone we have the bloodweaver night witch, which with lightning tendrils will mulch a lot more than LOTF. So they are out there, we just can't think of any right now. I remember gerlack slaughterborn doing similar tings to me. LOTF still needs a ton of support to be considered game breaking and by the time you take that into account it's not that bad. Other options of a similar calibre will tend to need the same kind of support. 3. Nerf is right. I think he'll totally be getting a nerf. The thing that puts him over the edge is the ability to trivially kill low camp casters by getting through their armour. So take away the strength buff from death powered. To me though the nightwitch is a good example of a solo that is "OK". Yes. She can get from Kruger electro leaps and that can SOMETIMES be a problem....but sometimes not if it leaps to the adjacent model you hoped to bounce to on your killing spree. Your opponent will have to be able to position well but doable. Ignoring TK (cause it applies to both), that inear threat of 12 inches is also managable - and if you get aggressive with her ARM 11/5 boxes melts to nearly everything. Risk vs. Reward.
To me the right fix with Lord is NOT necessarily to weaken his offensive melee output....it is to increase risk (no puppet master, lower the Rat a point, lower the range) so that if I commit to using him just as an opening bullet to disrupt plans it might fail.....and then I just lost my free solo. Right now he just feels like a model that requires limited thought to create a strong opening (analogy with chess) and with 90%+ options creates a board state that advantages the operator.
(And I would agree that he is less aggregious in Call than in DH. I have limited sympathy for a solo that you can hang back and apply as a late game finisher. LOTS of factions have that. Killed many a warlock with buffed eliminators or a Drakhun. Bears in old MK2 got HUGE amounts of work done in the late game. What I think doesn't work in WM/H is a solo that does that EARLY game because then the next 2 hours feels like "less than fun.")
One other nerf that actually could work (and would be quasi thematic). Make him spell warded. No TK, no buffs outside of feat. No puppet master. I BELIEVE (too lazy to confirm) that he still can get the pot to hand him off corpses. Now you have to honestly guage that RAT 7 shot. Sure. You probably will hit.....but you might not.....cause it isn't that hard to get even MOW defenses up to 12 and often to as high as 14. You will have to consider - do I risk the 30% chance I will miss and lose him or hold him back and wait for a truly good time to commit. THAT is a good wargame. The "I will just park him center board and then go pick up the best 10 points of models in a 16+Base+Reach bubble" is NOT a good wargame.
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Post by kjata on Apr 15, 2019 17:50:54 GMT
I think spell ward might be my favourite proposed nerf yet. Removes all the potential for abuse, but still leaves him as pretty awesome. I've taken him totally unsupported plenty of times and he's never felt egregious like that.
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Post by brotem on Apr 15, 2019 18:42:38 GMT
sand20go While Spell Ward prevents majority of buffs from affecting LotF (Storm Rager, TK, Stone Skin, Scything Touch, Hand of Fate, Pupet Master, Guidance or anything else i forgot), he can still get his pile of corpses from Spirit Cauldron and reroll on EVERY attack from Iona's Feat (Or at least for the raven) and Divine Inspiration from Blood Shaman. So while it nerfs LotF for almost every caster it still changes nothing for the caster that is plowing tournaments the most. Your other ideas like placement restrictions or lowering Rat i like even less. Let him be unique and viable but not tactical nuke at the same time. That's why i would like to see nerf hammer to hit Iona first then just take away death powered from LotF and lower range on raven to 8". While i myself am not on recieving end of Tharn rampage i can see it is overtuned, but only those two models need changes.
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satyr
Demo Gamer
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Post by satyr on Apr 16, 2019 4:23:58 GMT
That's why i would like to see nerf hammer to hit Iona first then just take away death powered from LotF and lower range on raven to 8". While i myself am not on recieving end of Tharn rampage i can see it is overtuned, but only those two models need changes. Nerfing Iona, and removing death powered, and lowering the ravens range is a bit of an over correction. If people lost their mind over changing mad dogs and karchev in the same update, doing all three things you suggest is going to be just as upsetting to the circle community as the mad dog situation was to the khador community. Don’t get me wrong both models could use minor changes to bring them down a bit, but any change to Iona should not directly effect LotF otherwise it could end up being too much. I would personally change surefoot and phantasm to solid ground and occultation, on Iona and lower LotF sword to range 1 to make shield guards more relevant. But I play Grayle instead of Iona so I’m not an expert. I also wouldn’t mind spell ward being the nerf LotF gets, that or changing stealth to prowl so he is more limited in where he can stand without being shot. More than anything I just want it resolved so people will stop complaining about circle.
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Post by fanbloodytastic on Apr 16, 2019 5:27:09 GMT
If people are looking at nerfs, what about making it so he can’t be a free solo? (Potentially with a +1 point increase, not sure if that would be needed)
This would keep what is fun about lord of the feast, make him restrictive to list building if you want to include support like the pot, and hopefully make him less of a no brainer for lists.
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Post by jisidro on Apr 16, 2019 10:05:52 GMT
I know LotF is FOTM but
Cannot be taken for free in Devourer's host? 7pt solo? Really? It's a theme that restricts BG and makes the devourer's avatar a virtual merc choice? That makes no sense.
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snap
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Post by snap on Apr 16, 2019 10:59:36 GMT
Sorry to be pedantic. He's 6 pts.
The problem with the sacred ward change is it's putting casters like Grayle back on the shelf. He's currently seeing play at the moment due to storm rager.
Possibly a rule such as "this model can only be affected by friendly faction spells and abilities". Would fit the theme nicely and also curb the attrition swing the croc pot currently gives it. You'll then have to get the charge off in order to be full up on corpses before birding. No more just bird from 16 inches away unless you're taking a well and killing your opponents stuff first. Thus putting some of the control into your opponents hands again making it a better play experience.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 16, 2019 11:02:25 GMT
Possibly a rule such as "this model can only be affected by friendly faction spells and abilities". Would fit the theme nicely and also curb the attrition swing the croc pot currently gives it. You'll then have to get the charge off in order to be full up on corpses before birding. No more just bird from 16 inches away unless you're taking a well and killing your opponents stuff first. Thus putting some of the control into your opponents hands again making it a better play experience. And simultaneously removing the option for the opponent to blast him away with spells, making him even more safe?
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snap
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Post by snap on Apr 16, 2019 11:46:26 GMT
True. Probably a better way of wording it. "This model cannot be affected by Friendly non faction spells and abilities".
You get the gist?
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Post by fanbloodytastic on Apr 16, 2019 12:28:26 GMT
I know LotF is FOTM but Cannot be taken for free in Devourer's host? 7pt solo? Really? It's a theme that restricts BG and makes the devourer's avatar a virtual merc choice? That makes no sense. I get it if you think he doesn’t need a nerf at all, but isn’t tweaking whether he is able to be free or not a more elegant change than taking on even more rules as others are suggesting? I think this hits the perceived issue pretty well by making the lists that buff him to the level where he can 1 round heavies more restrictive. It would barely affect other lists that take the LotF but aren’t focused on him.
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Post by jisidro on Apr 16, 2019 12:35:32 GMT
I'd rather not go that way. Themes already have weak points rule/logic wise no need to make them even more unintuitive and clunky.
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Post by fanbloodytastic on Apr 16, 2019 12:44:11 GMT
Okay, fair enough. At this point it seems like PP has decided to address the LotF with the new primal archon anyways. So he probably shouldn’t be touched at all until we see how that shakes out.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 16, 2019 12:55:11 GMT
At this point it seems like PP has decided to address the LotF with the new primal archon anyways. So he probably shouldn’t be touched at all until we see how that shakes out. Where do you get that from?
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