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Post by kjata on Apr 7, 2019 20:20:15 GMT
Quitting the game is a bit dramatic over one model, especially in a faction that's seen 2 seperate nerfs on a caster that dialed up a light beast up to 11. Anyone with 5 woldwatchers or 6 scars fells floating around is going to survive a croc pot nerf.
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snap
10 Point Advantage
Posts: 78
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Post by snap on Apr 9, 2019 15:15:56 GMT
Quitting the game is a bit dramatic over one model, especially in a faction that's seen 2 seperate nerfs on a caster that dialed up a light beast up to 11. Anyone with 5 woldwatchers or 6 scars fells floating around is going to survive a croc pot nerf. *looks over at the 6 wold watchers gathering dust* Pepperidge farm remembers.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Apr 9, 2019 18:19:00 GMT
Remember the Croak Raiders! When Secret Masters gets the CID it deserves then... then I will come into my kingdom. All my horded minions minis will have their day! And my multiple units of Druids, Mistriders, and Woldstalkers! (assuming the latter gets added to the theme)
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Apr 11, 2019 16:12:57 GMT
I mean, croaks were broken beyond belief when released. I think they're fine now, got a leg up after their over-nerf, it's just the silliness of Theme math that keeps them off tables.
I don't think they have a schedule long enough for a secret masters CiD. strong contender for worst theme in the game, and my that trophy has some sad contenders.
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Post by streetpizza on Apr 11, 2019 16:16:22 GMT
I mean, croaks were broken beyond belief when released. I think they're fine now, got a leg up after their over-nerf, it's just the silliness of Theme math that keeps them off tables. I don't think they have a schedule long enough for a secret masters CiD. strong contender for worst theme in the game, and my that trophy has some sad contenders. In its current form Secret Masters at least has a few lists which can do well. Wild hunt has it beat by a country mile for our worst theme.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Apr 11, 2019 18:06:00 GMT
Really? I have a Wild Hunt list (Tanith) I'm happy to play. Can't say the same for secret masters
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Post by kjata on Apr 11, 2019 21:21:04 GMT
I've seen some pretty cool secret masters lists with morv1. Mortality plus farrow brigands does a lot of work.
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Post by cainuslupus on Apr 13, 2019 1:26:54 GMT
*sorry this one got a bit ranty but people suggesting FF on the pot drives me nuts* To me the pot going friendly faction is the absolute worst solution of any I've heard so far. Making that change would constitute the most egregious bait and switch on a relatively expensive model that I've ever seen from PP. How many of us already own one or more witch doc crocs that became useless in the transition to MKIII while Ruhpert continued to strut his stuff on the WM side of things? Hordes needs minion options that actually function within our armies in a reasonable manner which is comparable to the utility that merc options bring to WM armies. Ragman, Sylys, Corbeau, Reinholdt, Ruhpert, A&H with various ranking officers, Anastasia, Gorman, Taryn and Orin all offer great non faction utility support in mercs (combat oriented solos are another matter). On the hordes side we get saddled with the likes of Targ, witch doc, Kwaak, for our "support" minions. Very few are actually usable for their support purpose with notable exceptions like Lanyssa (also in WM), Hutchuk (also in WM but a more expensive version of Gorman), the chef and mist speakers. The croc pot is a shining example of how that support can be done right for hordes using minions. Going friendly faction on the pot would be hitting the wrong model for the wrong reasons and slapping every non-minion player that bought one in the face. Focus the changes on the feast and other tharn models as required but leave the pot out of it. Ayup. It's infuriating to see people continuously suggest nerfing the pot. IF LoTF needs a nerf, make his sword 1" reach. But I don't see him as any more egregious than Sev0, the Derp Guardian, or the Derp Turtle, and I'll not be thrilled if we see a bunch of circle nerfs without bringing down those models too. Werent you a champion of balance during Primal Terrors CiD? Lol. Thats just sad... It's the same BS arguments and same BS discussion as with Karchev, Haley2, Nemo3, Una2 etc. Are DH broken, negative experience and sad to play against? Yes. Will they be nerfed rather than power creeping rest of the factions to their level? Yes, they will be nerfed, rather sooner than later. Does threatening to leave the game if your OP shit get nerfed is childish? You decide, but sure as hell didn't stopped Stormlances and Laddermore nerf. No matter how many pages you'll produce here about DH being perfectly legit and balanced they will be brought down to more sensible level. Now please continue, I'm just checking if there are other people seeing some kind of pattern here (just different armies), or I'm just imagining things.
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Post by streetpizza on Apr 13, 2019 2:25:53 GMT
Really? I have a Wild Hunt list (Tanith) I'm happy to play. Can't say the same for secret masters I'm happy to play wild hunt with Tanith, Wurmwood, Mohsar, Morv1 and Morv2. Doesn't mean that its actually good. I can fully admit that I haven't put my full testing time behind that endeavor though. Meanwhile we have actual international tournament players bringing SM to events and doing well proving its viability. Personally I'll be piloting two SM lists at the SOO at the end of the month and they've been impressing me so far in testing (one in champs and one in masters). SM looks even better to me once the well drops but I could say the same about WH.
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Post by sand20go on Apr 14, 2019 19:16:16 GMT
Lots of discussions but in my mind what would be "nice" with LOtF is to find ways (and there are a variety of them) to increase his risk. One way would be to reduce his RAT by a point (or possibly even 2). Another would be to disallow puppetmaster on him. A third would be to keep his kit COMPLETELY the same BUT require him to be in the front arc - so that he can not trivially ignore shield wall. Poor positioning (as opposed to master level position required) should mean you loose more (aka, you can't just advance in a 20 man clump). Solid positioning of cheap ass 1.2 point models means he might pick up 3 but then isn't making his points back.
After the raven teleport He should be ridiculously fragile though - so perhaps eliminating the ARM buff of the corpses against MELEE (aka, we want him to be decent against drifting blasts but not oppressive as a model that shuts down a third of your board as you have to send 2 units worth of activations to remove him). As effective would be to reduce him down to 5 boxes. WHat we absolutely don't want is him to raven/teleport and then, because of his threat, demand more than 7 points of models to hit him in return.
It is a 7 point solo. Yes, I know it is free, it should do between 4 and 10 points of work and, in return, demand 4 to 10 points worth of models to eliminate. This isn't hard. It is called balance.
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Post by jisidro on Apr 15, 2019 9:57:34 GMT
He is usually a 12/16 8 box after going in... He is a true glass cannon.
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Post by redcathal on Apr 15, 2019 10:15:45 GMT
He's also 6 points
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 15, 2019 10:40:35 GMT
He's also a laser guided glass cannon that is extremely hard to manage before it makes his points back and/or kills your caster.
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snap
10 Point Advantage
Posts: 78
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Post by snap on Apr 15, 2019 11:25:52 GMT
He'll make his points back for sure if you let yourself get charged by him. Which admittedly can be pretty hard to play around sometimes.
If you just bird and then the pseudo thresher early game then that's generally a bad trade for a piece that can sometimes double his return with the right buffs. It does take usually 9-13 pts of models to make him do the crazy and assassinate a caster so there's that to consider. If you're clever with your game you can keep your caster safe from take out the support so the threat isn't quite on the same level. I find he struggles to take out high value pieces like junior casters without his buffs. He will struggle to get past the armour 20 of sevvy0 for instance unless he's full of corpses.
I've taken to just running the pot with him, and commit him turn 3. He's full of corpses and then has the puppet master from the pot / telekenisis from Krueger 2 / hunters mark for the insanity. While you're not scalping out the important stuff early game, he will usually kill enough infantry to make him worth it. Particularly against stuff like menoth who can be slow in certain builds.
While I see where people are coming from, from the stand point of "he's killing my caster without even thinking", maybe don't put your caster in feast range camping next to nothing. If you do the math then a fairly light caster camping 4 (which is pretty standard) will live pretty much all the time. I agree that he's got serious output with the right buffs and can spot remove from the other side of the table, but legion also do that for the entire game with ravagores. Once you pop your feast off, he's done because he's always dead the following turn.
Ready for the ensuing mouldy internet cabbage and flames to start pouring out of my computer.
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Post by sand20go on Apr 15, 2019 14:27:14 GMT
He is usually a 12/16 8 box after going in... He is a true glass cannon. Shouldn't he be 12/17 with one corpse if he has been sent in to kill a BUNCH of infantry. Otherwise 12/17 but now he is engaging something with multi-boxes encouraging you to adjust order of activations and use something in your backfield to kill him to free things up.
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