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Post by jisidro on Mar 29, 2019 10:31:03 GMT
But one ravager coming trough shuld not be able to kill 10-15 models no problem. And yes, spreading helps, but after the lines have engaged, spreading isn't always possible. No problem is a huge exageration. Do the math on 10 models hitting on 3+ and autokilling and you'll be surprised. But yes, DH seems to be overperforming. As I said theme benefit and pot is where I'd take the hammer.
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Post by Dev Null on Mar 29, 2019 10:33:51 GMT
This. Reminds me of the people who used to use stones only to double port and never realized they can heal, remove fury, anchor a clutch hellmouth, etc. The Pot is amazeballs. Wait, you can teleport with stones? I just put them in my list for fury control and to give the bad guys something to shoot at that I don't care about much...
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Post by brotem on Mar 29, 2019 13:05:05 GMT
But one ravager coming trough shuld not be able to kill 10-15 models no problem. And yes, spreading helps, but after the lines have engaged, spreading isn't always possible. No problem is a huge exageration. Do the math on 10 models hitting on 3+ and autokilling and you'll be surprised. But yes, DH seems to be overperforming. As I said theme benefit and pot is where I'd take the hammer. There are many ways to manipulate dice in DH and if you combine them you get almost 100% chance to clear the board even without the pot. With feat from Iona and Divine Inspiration you have 99,7% to hit def 12, 98,6% to hit def 13, 96,2% to hit def 14 at mat 7. Assuming you break armor without rolling, with multiple corpses you won't fail unless your targets roll their tough or have a way to deny you a corpse. Bloodweaver Night Witch will avoid those issues but she has lower melee range and can't get corpses. If anything remove Divine Inspiration from Blood Shaman and nerf Iona's feat.
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Post by snotling on Mar 29, 2019 13:06:43 GMT
But one ravager coming trough shuld not be able to kill 10-15 models no problem. And yes, spreading helps, but after the lines have engaged, spreading isn't always possible. No problem is a huge exageration. Do the math on 10 models hitting on 3+ and autokilling and you'll be surprised. But yes, DH seems to be overperforming. As I said theme benefit and pot is where I'd take the hammer. Thats what corpses are for, even one makes a huge difference, and the one in a good position to surf will most likely get zwo more from the pot.
Concur on the pot tho. make the corpse ability only friendly faction would be the best change to bring tharn in line.
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Post by newangel on Mar 29, 2019 14:01:59 GMT
I had plenty of experience with Una2 and Pot in DH before the CID changes. Ravagers, IMO, are not over-performing. They simply don't just die to guns on the way in quite so trivially now. For sure there is now more and better support available, but I don't think that necessarily makes them over the top. Ravagers move quickly, hit reasonably hard and die fast when hit back with any kind of boosted damage roll. No KD Tough throws a spanner in the works sometimes, but the same applies to any faction that brings models that also can randomly tough and not be KD.
My experience is that the outlier is LotF. He starts off looking reasonable, until you add Shifting Stones, Pot, Mist Speaker, Blood Shaman and any kind of Str buff. Then he can just randomly win the game, or swing attrition so heavily that he might as well have. It looks like a large investment (and it is - 16pts isn't cheap, along with all the activations that turn), but it's pretty easy to make space for these things anyway and they all have multiple roles to fill when considering list building.
The more I think about it the more I feel changing the pot is the right call. But I'm also not sure that Ravagers (or other models that collect corpses in the theme) deserve the nerf.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 29, 2019 14:55:07 GMT
The more I think about it the more I feel changing the pot is the right call. But I'm also not sure that Ravagers (or other models that collect corpses in the theme) deserve the nerf. There'll still be the Well of Orboros to pass corpses around, just not quite so trivially.
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Post by jisidro on Mar 29, 2019 16:09:23 GMT
No problem is a huge exageration. Do the math on 10 models hitting on 3+ and autokilling and you'll be surprised. But yes, DH seems to be overperforming. As I said theme benefit and pot is where I'd take the hammer. There are many ways to manipulate dice in DH and if you combine them you get almost 100% chance to clear the board even without the pot. With feat from Iona and Divine Inspiration you have 99,7% to hit def 12, 98,6% to hit def 13, 96,2% to hit def 14 at mat 7. Assuming you break armor without rolling, with multiple corpses you won't fail unless your targets roll their tough or have a way to deny you a corpse. Bloodweaver Night Witch will avoid those issues but she has lower melee range and can't get corpses. If anything remove Divine Inspiration from Blood Shaman and nerf Iona's feat.
Using your %s you get: 99.7% after 10x it's a 97% but add tough and it's a 2% 98.6% after 10x is 87% w/tough it's 2% 96.2% after 10x is 68% w/tough it's 1% So with an extreme example of RR and Divine inspirarion tough cancels the pac-man.
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Post by brotem on Mar 29, 2019 16:58:13 GMT
99.7% after 10x it's a 97% but add tough and it's a 2% 98.6% after 10x is 87% w/tough it's 2% 96.2% after 10x is 68% w/tough it's 1% So with an extreme example of RR and Divine inspirarion tough cancels the pac-man. I wasn't making argument that single ravanger will eat 10 models easly but with right conditions it's posible. Not only that but placing 10 models in close proximity is often mistake anyway, still they eat non-tough, non-construct infantry. Ravagers were good at that before CID but now they are easier to deliver and they gained one free corpse. Also fishing out chieftain makes unit less scary. The real issue is Iona, blood shaman and LotF (but just a little) in my opinion not ravagers.
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Post by jacobi on Mar 30, 2019 10:57:38 GMT
I would say every DH list starting with two max units ravagers + UA without hesitation proves clearly that the real problem are the ravagers.
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Post by newangel on Mar 30, 2019 11:23:48 GMT
Just to clarify the above...I typically don't run 2 units of Ravagers. Went to a local steamroller today and only used 1 unit.
And to further clarify what I wrote. I can understand why some players enjoy using 2 units. They are typically the workhorse unit of the theme. However, I enjoy the additional options and utility granted by using Bloodweavers and Bloodtrackers. That doesn't really leave space for a second unit of Ravagers.
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Post by brotem on Mar 30, 2019 13:21:00 GMT
I would say every DH list starting with two max units ravagers + UA without hesitation proves clearly that the real problem are the ravagers. That's not the problem with ravagers they are the only infantry unit in DH that you can throw into the zone and it won't get cleared by blast damage, they are also one of the few units that makes use of theme benefit. I know there is blood pack but they are mainly ranged and 0,5" PS11 melee is just an insult. Death wolves doesn't count for theme benefits and aren't tharn.
If there is a single choice for melee oriented unit in whole theme, no wonder you are forced to take two units. And it was PP's intention to make ravagers main unit of the theme. You will still see bloodweavers but only because of ambush.
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Post by newangel on Mar 30, 2019 13:35:58 GMT
Bloodweavers combined with Wolf Rider Champions are a great way to harass flanks. Ambush is certainly cool, though forcing models towards the centre where we can get proper mileage from control feats such as eKrueger, Wurmwood or Baldur1 is also a huge boon. Then there's the fact that they bring a further source of Grievous Wounds to the table and I think it's fair to say that they totally have a place (dependent on list build of course).
I've tried dropping them from my Baldur1 list time and again and it has simply never been as effective without them.
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Post by paradox on Mar 30, 2019 14:55:50 GMT
Yeah, ravagers are pretty good, and there are compelling reasons to start with two units. But calling them autoinclude? Not so sure on that. I see LotF and gator pot windmill slammed into every DH list over ravagers. Same with B&C. And blood pack are a super strong consideration. As are wolf rider builds.
No, ravagers are not the problem, and neither are theme hearts. Because two units are hardly the start point for dev host builds. Common, sure. But, like, thatd be saying EI is busted cause its full of exemplars....
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Mar 30, 2019 19:52:48 GMT
Honestly the place to go is to nerf LotF, since he swings attrition so hard in favour of the DH player.
His identity has always been (and the draw to play him is) his infantry-threshing fire-and-forget nature. The problem is that he's murdering things he shouldn't be murdering - taking out a full ARM 18 heavy, threatening assassinations, I've even claimed a full unit of ARM 19 Chosen. That's not OK.
Answer is simple, really. Kill death-powered, maybe up his ARM a smidge accordingly, and call it a day. He will still do great things into infantry, he will threaten zero-camp casters, and he might kill 1 or 2 high-ARM infantry like chosen, but no more. Now you have a model that is still fun and compelling without being oppressive.
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Post by jisidro on Mar 30, 2019 20:33:29 GMT
I would say every DH list starting with two max units ravagers + UA without hesitation proves clearly that the real problem are the ravagers. I think it proves that corpse token bonus REALLY favors medium VS small base Tharns.
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