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Post by streetpizza on Feb 25, 2019 18:04:55 GMT
RE: ravagers. I guess we have to ask if a unit + CA + solo, + caster attachment + theme benefit+ feat + sacrified model + maybe a minion unit buff should be able to have serious melee output complained of here. Thats ALOT to put into a unit’s performance. It should have output. The question isn't SHOULD that combo have output because of course it should. Even a 4pt model on its own SHOULD have output. The question is, "is that output commensurate with points and activation time invested in it," or "does the output of that combo exceed the investment compared to comparable costed options," and lastly "does that combo create a module with or without reasonable counter play." The question is considerably more complex then what you're presenting.
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Post by paradox on Feb 25, 2019 18:16:31 GMT
RE: ravagers. I guess we have to ask if a unit + CA + solo, + caster attachment + theme benefit+ feat + sacrified model + maybe a minion unit buff should be able to have serious melee output complained of here. Thats ALOT to put into a unit’s performance. It should have output. The question isn't SHOULD that combo have output because of course it should. Even a 4pt model on its own SHOULD have output. The question is, "is that output commensurate with points and activation time invested in it," or "does the output of that combo exceed the investment compared to comparable costed options," and lastly "does that combo create a module with or without reasonable counter play." The question is considerably more complex then what you're presenting. Disagree.
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Post by paradox on Feb 25, 2019 18:24:33 GMT
Heres some pretty easy counterplay: Feora1. Blazing Effigy, Wall of Fire, and feat are all non-attack damage sources that completely bypass Rapid Healing. Add no-spells Covenant to turn off shamens, lose the no-KD effects.
Literally one of my go-to lists since last edition naturally solves Dev Host.
One of my more recent go-tos: Rez2 + Corbeau. Handle what little beasts they brought, then laugh all the way to the bank.
There are solutions out there. Two of my lists I like most accidentally deal with Tharn. Git gud?
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Post by streetpizza on Feb 25, 2019 18:34:44 GMT
Didn't say there wasn't counter play I said the larger question of is a combo OP needs to include that component to answer it.
The blaze off hand nature of your responses highlights the problem with both the NERF NOW! and IT'S FINE! argument camps I'm seeing.
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Post by paradox on Feb 25, 2019 18:49:58 GMT
Didn't say there wasn't counter play I said the larger question of is a combo OP needs to include that component to answer it. The blaze off hand nature of your responses highlights the problem with both the NERF NOW! and IT'S FINE! argument camps I'm seeing. On B&C and LotF I can see some room for nerfs. Maybe its just as simple as croc pot is FFM keyed, though. On ravagers? Man, Im alot less convinced. They really are not too much more than before. Aggressively good? Maybe, but I dont think ravagers need a hot fix so soon after CID. Answers exist, people just need to adjust. The real issues are probably elsewhere in the theme, and Im hardly against some nerfs there. But ravagers? You need to show me lots more, cause Im sick of Madrak1 BoH bullshit. And no one is calling for nerfs there, that I can see.
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Post by streetpizza on Feb 25, 2019 19:31:25 GMT
But ravagers? You need to show me lots more, cause Im sick of Madrak1 BoH bullshit. And no one is calling for nerfs there, that I can see. This is my larger problem with the community. We get these powerful things that everybody else has to deal with but when its their turn they don't even try they just call for nerfs. I would really like to see the meta settle before any of this really gets going into serious discussion territory.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 25, 2019 19:39:59 GMT
Ravagers and LoTF are slightly overtuned, and I can see them being toned down slightly. The screaming about Circle is Firetrucking hilarious, though, given that Skorne is currently significantly stronger as a faction (and has more broken shit) than Circle does.
LVO? sure, there were 4 Circle players in the final...but there were 6 Skorne players. The winner of the event? Skorne player.
Most of what needs to happen to answer Circle (as usual, and as was the case with Anamag, Kolgrimma, etc before them) is a meta adjustment.
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Post by paradox on Feb 25, 2019 19:47:33 GMT
Meanwhile I can drop this and no one bats an eye: Theme: Exemplar Interdiction 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
High Exemplar Cyrenia - WJ: +28 - Hierophant - PC: 3 - Fire of Salvation - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Indictor - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14)
Exemplar Warder - PC: 0 High Exemplar Gravus - PC: 8 - High Exemplar Gravus (Continued) Scrutator Potentate Severius - PC: 0 - Dervish - PC: 7 Wrack - PC: 1
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Exemplar Cinerators - Leader & 4 Grunts: 13 - Exemplar Cinerator Officer - PC: 0 Knights Exemplar - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Knights Exemplar Officer - PC: 4 Knights Exemplar - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Knights Exemplar Officer - PC: 4 Knights Exemplar - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 - Knights Exemplar Officer - PC: 4
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Post by jisidro on Feb 26, 2019 12:25:57 GMT
RE: ravagers. I guess we have to ask if a unit + CA + solo, + caster attachment + theme benefit+ feat + sacrified model + maybe a minion unit buff should be able to have serious melee output complained of here. Thats ALOT to put into a unit’s performance. It should have output. What are you thinking of?
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Post by jisidro on Feb 26, 2019 12:37:36 GMT
Didn't say there wasn't counter play I said the larger question of is a combo OP needs to include that component to answer it. The blaze off hand nature of your responses highlights the problem with both the NERF NOW! and IT'S FINE! argument camps I'm seeing. On B&C and LotF I can see some room for nerfs. Maybe its just as simple as croc pot is FFM keyed, though. On ravagers? Man, Im alot less convinced. They really are not too much more than before. Aggressively good? Maybe, but I dont think ravagers need a hot fix so soon after CID. Answers exist, people just need to adjust. The real issues are probably elsewhere in the theme, and Im hardly against some nerfs there. But ravagers? You need to show me lots more, cause Im sick of Madrak1 BoH bullshit. And no one is calling for nerfs there, that I can see. Given the output associated with getting corpses the croc pot might as well be a tharn model. Ideally the croc pot would be a Tharn pot able to count for points and then LotF/B&C could be trimmed (I am not convinced they need it.) as it is it's a 65pt theme.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Feb 26, 2019 12:48:51 GMT
Given the output associated with getting corpses the croc pot might as well be a tharn model. Why doesn't that thing want to work for Cryx anyway?
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Post by jisidro on Feb 26, 2019 13:35:44 GMT
Given the output associated with getting corpses the croc pot might as well be a tharn model. Why doesn't that thing want to work for Cryx anyway? No idea, is Cryx using it?
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Post by paradox on Feb 26, 2019 13:38:13 GMT
RE: ravagers. I guess we have to ask if a unit + CA + solo, + caster attachment + theme benefit+ feat + sacrified model + maybe a minion unit buff should be able to have serious melee output complained of here. Thats ALOT to put into a unit’s performance. It should have output. What are you thinking of? Really, theres several ways to go, right? Depending on your caster and available buffs. But lets just take Iona. Your ravagers and chief can mini feat, under Ionas feat, with a model getting DI from the bloodshamen, they have theme hearts, and maybe the croc pot tops one off and hands out puppet strings. Charge that into any mix of things and you probably get some results.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Feb 26, 2019 13:38:35 GMT
Why doesn't that thing want to work for Cryx anyway? No idea, is Cryx using it? No, because it doesn't work for Cryx, as a Mercenary. In fact, it's a Minion only. That's what I meant, not "Why doesn't it work after it's been put into a list?"
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Post by paradox on Feb 26, 2019 13:38:54 GMT
On B&C and LotF I can see some room for nerfs. Maybe its just as simple as croc pot is FFM keyed, though. On ravagers? Man, Im alot less convinced. They really are not too much more than before. Aggressively good? Maybe, but I dont think ravagers need a hot fix so soon after CID. Answers exist, people just need to adjust. The real issues are probably elsewhere in the theme, and Im hardly against some nerfs there. But ravagers? You need to show me lots more, cause Im sick of Madrak1 BoH bullshit. And no one is calling for nerfs there, that I can see. Given the output associated with getting corpses the croc pot might as well be a tharn model. Ideally the croc pot would be a Tharn pot able to count for points and then LotF/B&C could be trimmed (I am not convinced they need it.) as it is it's a 65pt theme. Isnt that the Well?
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