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Post by sand20go on Apr 19, 2019 15:20:47 GMT
I am not going to name names because that isn't useful. What I would say is that I am not sure the development team puts competitive warmachine front and center in their thoughts. So you get "weird stuff" like the new gun on the Oblivion solo that is a quasi TK. That clearly is broken in competitive warmachine with Killboxes and scenario play. If you are doing beer and pretzels it is fun. You could even see the tension on the CID roll out. Corneir’s gun cant place warcasters, warlocks, or masters though, so it does absolutely nothing for Killbox. It can place for scenario play, but theres a fair bit of “cant place” counterplay exisiting in the meta so probably not a huge deal. Its strong, but probably not for the stated reasons. ?? 1) Scenario play - you thought you were camping the flag? now you are not. You thought you were contesting? Nope. While HUGE bases can't be placed there are a ton of other things in the meta which can and there are NOT that many "you can't place anything in my army" effects which are common across the competitive meta.
2) Killboxes. You can't score killbox on your turn ANYWAY (aka moving them out). By this I mean that kill box forces caster just a bit closer and her (his?) gun allows you to open up lanes and LOS. If you are hanging way back in a non-scenario beer and pretzels' game than it is fine. Who cares. Distance is the great savior. But in KB games your distance isn't going to be great and her gun provides everything you would want and more in opening up assassination runs.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Apr 19, 2019 23:03:01 GMT
Corneir’s gun cant place warcasters, warlocks, or masters though, so it does absolutely nothing for Killbox. It can place for scenario play, but theres a fair bit of “cant place” counterplay exisiting in the meta so probably not a huge deal. Its strong, but probably not for the stated reasons. ?? 1) Scenario play - you thought you were camping the flag? now you are not. You thought you were contesting? Nope. While HUGE bases can't be placed there are a ton of other things in the meta which can and there are NOT that many "you can't place anything in my army" effects which are common across the competitive meta.
2) Killboxes. You can't score killbox on your turn ANYWAY (aka moving them out). By this I mean that kill box forces caster just a bit closer and her (his?) gun allows you to open up lanes and LOS. If you are hanging way back in a non-scenario beer and pretzels' game than it is fine. Who cares. Distance is the great savior. But in KB games your distance isn't going to be great and her gun provides everything you would want and more in opening up assassination runs.
Huge bases can absolutely be placed. Colossals, Garguantuans, and Structures cannot be placed. Battle Engines can be placed all day.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Apr 21, 2019 15:32:48 GMT
Boosting, slightly more than buying attacks, is the mechanic that provides the greatest tactical flexibility in this game, i.e. dice roll enhancement. (One of my personal reasons I prefer my BEs with buy/boost token gaining abilities, better flexibility for that amount of points, TEP and VoJ for example). Justifiably, it's limited on warrior units, as they have the tactical flexibilities to defensively spread out, and to offensively concentrate or spread out attacks/damage.
Nearly an entire Theme army with the ability Tactics: gain an initial boost/buy token.
I imagine this 'Tactics' in any of my other Factions (6 WM, 4 Hordes other than my Circle) as an ability replacing a benefit for their weakest (warrior class model availability) theme, and KNOW it would be a marvelous, if not miraculous improvement. Even without the ability to gain more buys/boosts.
And now couple it with the spread-out advantage of a unit AND the ability to gain additional token(s) through destroying opposing models for rechargeable tactical flexibility.
Iona also has a Feat (damage, survivability/ARM and accuracy buffs!) that given to any Faction's weakest caster would vault it far forward up the ladder of competitive options.
If not broken, these combined elements are rather 'over-tuned' relative to opposing options. The trick remains to re-tune, or not?, hopefully without the gutting of adjustments in the past (Mad Dogs, et al, Stormlances, et al).
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Post by paradox on Apr 21, 2019 16:43:15 GMT
Boosting, slightly more than buying attacks, is the mechanic that provides the greatest tactical flexibility in this game, i.e. dice roll enhancement. (One of my personal reasons I prefer my BEs with buy/boost token gaining abilities, better flexibility for that amount of points, TEP and VoJ for example). Justifiably, it's limited on warrior units, as they have the tactical flexibilities to defensively spread out, and to offensively concentrate or spread out attacks/damage. Nearly an entire Theme army with the ability Tactics: gain an initial boost/buy token. I imagine this 'Tactics' in any of my other Factions (6 WM, 4 Hordes other than my Circle) as an ability replacing a benefit for their weakest (warrior class model availability) theme, and KNOW it would be a marvelous, if not miraculous improvement. Even without the ability to gain more buys/boosts. And now couple it with the spread-out advantage of a unit AND the ability to gain additional token(s) through destroying opposing models for rechargeable tactical flexibility. Iona also has a Feat (damage, survivability/ARM and accuracy buffs!) that given to any Faction's weakest caster would vault it far forward up the ladder of competitive options. If not broken, these combined elements are rather 'over-tuned' relative to opposing options. The trick remains to re-tune, or not?, hopefully without the gutting of adjustments in the past (Mad Dogs, et al, Stormlances, et al). Warriors of the Old Faith give All The Cav boost impact attacks. And can charges are also boosted. Its not overwhelming. And cav hit as hard as Iona-feated ravagers, except they need no buffs to do it. IMO the power of boosting to hit charges with hearts on ravagers is VASTLY overstated in meta discussions these days. Like Skarre1 and Kallus1 bith do this turn over turn with a spell. A theme benefit that approximates a cav benefit or spell is solid and reasonable.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Apr 21, 2019 18:35:05 GMT
Boosting, slightly more than buying attacks, is the mechanic that provides the greatest tactical flexibility in this game, i.e. dice roll enhancement. (One of my personal reasons I prefer my BEs with buy/boost token gaining abilities, better flexibility for that amount of points, TEP and VoJ for example). Justifiably, it's limited on warrior units, as they have the tactical flexibilities to defensively spread out, and to offensively concentrate or spread out attacks/damage. Nearly an entire Theme army with the ability Tactics: gain an initial boost/buy token. I imagine this 'Tactics' in any of my other Factions (6 WM, 4 Hordes other than my Circle) as an ability replacing a benefit for their weakest (warrior class model availability) theme, and KNOW it would be a marvelous, if not miraculous improvement. Even without the ability to gain more buys/boosts. And now couple it with the spread-out advantage of a unit AND the ability to gain additional token(s) through destroying opposing models for rechargeable tactical flexibility. Iona also has a Feat (damage, survivability/ARM and accuracy buffs!) that given to any Faction's weakest caster would vault it far forward up the ladder of competitive options. If not broken, these combined elements are rather 'over-tuned' relative to opposing options. The trick remains to re-tune, or not?, hopefully without the gutting of adjustments in the past (Mad Dogs, et al, Stormlances, et al). Warriors of the Old Faith give All The Cav boost impact attacks. And can charges are also boosted. Its not overwhelming. And cav hit as hard as Iona-feated ravagers, except they need no buffs to do it. IMO the power of boosting to hit charges with hearts on ravagers is VASTLY overstated in meta discussions these days. Like Skarre1 and Kallus1 bith do this turn over turn with a spell. A theme benefit that approximates a cav benefit or spell is solid and reasonable. Cavalry are very expensive, though, and those casters were designed with that spell in mind. Also that benefit (line breaker) already existed on a variety of similar models, Long Riders with solo, trollblood and Khador battle engines. Only giving one corpse to half the models would be a nightmare for bookkeeping, but it would allow so much more counterplay as people focus on those.
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Post by paradox on Apr 21, 2019 20:57:00 GMT
Warriors of the Old Faith give All The Cav boost impact attacks. And can charges are also boosted. Its not overwhelming. And cav hit as hard as Iona-feated ravagers, except they need no buffs to do it. IMO the power of boosting to hit charges with hearts on ravagers is VASTLY overstated in meta discussions these days. Like Skarre1 and Kallus1 bith do this turn over turn with a spell. A theme benefit that approximates a cav benefit or spell is solid and reasonable. Cavalry are very expensive, though, and those casters were designed with that spell in mind. Also that benefit (line breaker) already existed on a variety of similar models, Long Riders with solo, trollblood and Khador battle engines. Only giving one corpse to half the models would be a nightmare for bookkeeping, but it would allow so much more counterplay as people focus on those. 20pts. Exactly ravagers + chief. And ravagers were designed in CID with boosts in mind, and openly beta tested, even! Iona was even heavily tested with them. A boost is a boost. Source isnt relevant to the effect on the table. Theres counterplay to ravagers, too. People just have to put it on the table. Ive faced Iona ravagers. I also play it. Its good. Strong in the current meta. It aint broke, though.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Apr 21, 2019 22:15:19 GMT
Warriors of the Old Faith give All The Cav boost impact attacks. And can charges are also boosted. Its not overwhelming. And cav hit as hard as Iona-feated ravagers, except they need no buffs to do it. IMO the power of boosting to hit charges with hearts on ravagers is VASTLY overstated in meta discussions these days. Like Skarre1 and Kallus1 bith do this turn over turn with a spell. A theme benefit that approximates a cav benefit or spell is solid and reasonable. Cavalry are very expensive, though, and those casters were designed with that spell in mind. Also that benefit (line breaker) already existed on a variety of similar models, Long Riders with solo, trollblood and Khador battle engines. Only giving one corpse to half the models would be a nightmare for bookkeeping, but it would allow so much more counterplay as people focus on those. Cavalry are not significantly more expensive than ravagers (20 points for 5 models, 20 points for Ravagers + CA), and they are almost always significantly harder to remove (Vengers are 12/18, and go to 20 after being damaged), Ulhans are 18 with unyielding. They also have a longer threat range (Ravagers match it if you get vengeance, which is not at all the same, given the dynamics of vengeance positioning (the forward models die so that the rear models can advance, vs. static threat of 13+ for cavalry), and tend to hit harder into non-single wound infantry. They also get boosted attack rolls EVERY time they charge, whereas ravagers start with one boost, and if they use it, that's it. It's very common for you to run out of hearts if the enemy isn't running infantry to re-up from. Hearts are a fantastic piece of flexibility for Ravagers. It makes them very good at dealing with most target profiles...once. They're not broken, though.
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Post by jisidro on Apr 22, 2019 9:51:50 GMT
... IMO the power of boosting to hit charges with hearts on ravagers is VASTLY overstated in meta discussions these days. Like Skarre1 and Kallus1 bith do this turn over turn with a spell. A theme benefit that approximates a cav benefit or spell is solid and reasonable. I completely disagree with this. The starting heart makes ravagers good into anything. High Def? Boosted MAT 7 HIGH ARM? Brutal Charge Got Jammed? Sure, I got a boosted hit or dmg as needed. I don't think they are broken but they are really good.
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Post by paradox on Apr 22, 2019 13:23:24 GMT
... IMO the power of boosting to hit charges with hearts on ravagers is VASTLY overstated in meta discussions these days. Like Skarre1 and Kallus1 bith do this turn over turn with a spell. A theme benefit that approximates a cav benefit or spell is solid and reasonable. I completely disagree with this. The starting heart makes ravagers good into anything. High Def? Boosted MAT 7 HIGH ARM? Brutal Charge Got Jammed? Sure, I got a boosted hit or dmg as needed. I don't think they are broken but they are really good. Well, ypur second point has nothing to do with hearts. But yes, ravagers that get delivered have flexibility. And they absolutely mulch troopspam. They do decent into armor, but PS15 charges only take you so far.
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Post by kineath on Apr 24, 2019 13:53:27 GMT
[/quote]Well, ypur second point has nothing to do with hearts. But yes, ravagers that get delivered have flexibility. And they absolutely mulch troopspam. They do decent into armor, but PS15 charges only take you so far. [/quote]
Exept that we have quite a few casters with a damagebuff (or armor debuff)
Being able to boost attack or damage is a really good ability for infantry.
I still feel the biggest offender in Devourers Host is the CrocPot. And most notably the ability to give corpses. Sidenote: the wording on DevHost is such that the CrocPot ALSO starts with a corpsetoken. Giving it 2-4 tokens on turn 1. Which means it is impossible for any model with Hearteater to not be full turn 1.
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Post by paradox on Apr 24, 2019 14:02:43 GMT
Exept that we have quite a few casters with a damagebuff (or armor debuff) Being able to boost attack or damage is a really good ability for infantry. I still feel the biggest offender in Devourers Host is the CrocPot. And most notably the ability to give corpses. Sidenote: the wording on DevHost is such that the CrocPot ALSO starts with a corpsetoken. Giving it 2-4 tokens on turn 1. Which means it is impossible for any model with Hearteater to not be full turn 1. I 100% agree that the Croc Pot, and how it affects LotF and B&C, are the really crux of people’s issues with Dev Host and Iona. Were the Croc Pot unable to give corpses to LotF or Caul, those models are suddenly TONS less oppressive. Make Croc Pot FFM for corpse delivery, and cut Death Powered from LotF, and Dev Host is no longer an issue. Maybe LotF gets a couple stat buffs in the deal. But Im pretty confident its mainly Croc Pot.
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Post by kineath on Apr 24, 2019 14:31:07 GMT
Exept that we have quite a few casters with a damagebuff (or armor debuff) Being able to boost attack or damage is a really good ability for infantry. I still feel the biggest offender in Devourers Host is the CrocPot. And most notably the ability to give corpses. Sidenote: the wording on DevHost is such that the CrocPot ALSO starts with a corpsetoken. Giving it 2-4 tokens on turn 1. Which means it is impossible for any model with Hearteater to not be full turn 1. I 100% agree that the Croc Pot, and how it affects LotF and B&C, are the really crux of people’s issues with Dev Host and Iona. Were the Croc Pot unable to give corpses to LotF or Caul, those models are suddenly TONS less oppressive. Make Croc Pot FFM for corpse delivery, and cut Death Powered from LotF, and Dev Host is no longer an issue. Maybe LotF gets a couple stat buffs in the deal. But Im pretty confident its mainly Croc Pot. Maybe Deathpowered isn't even that bad if he can't be full of corpses turn 1. If he has to kill enemy models in order to get full it at least gives your opponent a turn to deal with him.
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Post by Dev Null on Apr 25, 2019 0:25:00 GMT
Maybe Deathpowered isn't even that bad if he can't be full of corpses turn 1. If he has to kill enemy models in order to get full it at least gives your opponent a turn to deal with him. It's still pretty brutal. Having finally put him on the table the other day I'm getting what all the fuss is about, and I didn't play him with the pot. With that huge range and Stealth to help cover the approach, it can be hard to deal with him til after he's had his fun. Not impossible, of course, just hard. And if he gets a few models in his reach, he'll likely have corpse tokens by the time he's finished his initial spin... Deathpowered with 2 corpses (after buying an attack) meant he was pretty much auto-killing some reasonably hefty infantry without boosts, so every attack bought paid for itself with another corpse. I think that was felt so lopsided in our game at least; that I could keep buying attacks forever, and still end on 3 corpses for the ARM buff. It felt like it should at least cost me something to keep buying attacks.
I don't normally like to wildly speculate about how to fix a model - I don't really see the point - but maybe if he could only get corpses from his initials, not the bought attacks? So that the bought attacks would actually cost you ARM later, and would have a limit? That would make for a pretty fiddly rule though, and would be different from the normal Heart Eater.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Apr 28, 2019 15:49:35 GMT
Also think the Cauldron is the source of most of the problems in DH, but also... the CID was tested with that thing in mind. I'm not sure where it went wrong. Some models seem to be have directly designed with the Cauldron as part of their synergy, namely Caul I think. He will never really be able to get 3 corpse tokens without the Cauldron and I feel like B&C were designed as a fire and forget missile meant to hit way above their weight class (kind Great Bears of Circle). They worked nicely in theme when you could stack multiple corpse tokens on single models. Ravagers were less oppressive too before the theme benefit got changed. Personally I always thought that was a mistake and I think it's a big part of why double ravagers are so ubiquitous.
Personally, I wouldn't cry too much if the theme benefit were changed back to 10 points of Tharn get 1 heart token.
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Post by paradox on Apr 28, 2019 15:56:27 GMT
Also think the Cauldron is the source of most of the problems in DH, but also... the CID was tested with that thing in mind. I'm not sure where it went wrong. Some models seem to be have directly designed with the Cauldron as part of their synergy, namely Caul I think. He will never really be able to get 3 corpse tokens without the Cauldron and I feel like B&C were designed as a fire and forget missile meant to hit way above their weight class (kind Great Bears of Circle). They worked nicely in theme when you could stack multiple corpse tokens on single models. Ravagers were less oppressive too before the theme benefit got changed. Personally I always thought that was a mistake and I think it's a big part of why double ravagers are so ubiquitous. Personally, I wouldn't cry too much if the theme benefit were changed back to 10 points of Tharn get 1 heart token. I would. It was a shitty benefit that made as many forced includes, but with Wolf Sworn models instead. But it went wrong when they used a minion model to prop up a theme. Thats shit design, and never should have happened.
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