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Post by fanbloodytastic on Apr 16, 2019 13:20:41 GMT
In the last devchat they said the primal archon prevents enemy models from being placed within 12” of it and called out that this is really good against LotF and recursion. This hasn’t gone through CID yet so it is just a possibility at the moment.
I could have the 12” range wrong, not 100% sure.
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Post by jisidro on Apr 16, 2019 16:46:47 GMT
Well...
LotF makes a big splash and suddenly you have a shield guards that appears from out of play to receive the attack (Umbral Guardian) and a model that denies places in a big area. I don't think it's cause and effect but perhaps DH was tested with some of these options in play?
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Post by paradox on Apr 16, 2019 17:10:08 GMT
Well... LotF makes a big splash and suddenly you have a shield guards that appears from out of play to receive the attack (Umbral Guardian) and a model that denies places in a big area. I don't think it's cause and effect but perhaps DH was tested with some of these options in play? Given how the Infernals CID went, I think youre giving the dev team FAR too much credit.
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Post by anderfreak on Apr 16, 2019 19:36:15 GMT
Well... LotF makes a big splash and suddenly you have a shield guards that appears from out of play to receive the attack (Umbral Guardian) and a model that denies places in a big area. I don't think it's cause and effect but perhaps DH was tested with some of these options in play? Given how the Infernals CID went, I think youre giving the dev team FAR too much credit. Given the entire history of WMH development I think you're giving them too little. This is exactly how the power curve of mk2 evolved, something powerful would get released that shakes up the meta, then something new would come out that provides counter play and the meta would adjust again. It's not manipulated 10 steps ahead or anything, but I know they brainstorm future counter play for models during its development. LotF has been out in the wild from CID just long enough that they are certainly aware that some counter play would be appreciated in the near future. Also, I think you attribute every rule that doesn't please you to be the product of incompetence. You have a really high opinion of your opinions.
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Post by paradox on Apr 16, 2019 20:29:03 GMT
Given how the Infernals CID went, I think youre giving the dev team FAR too much credit. Given the entire history of WMH development I think you're giving them too little. This is exactly how the power curve of mk2 evolved, something powerful would get released that shakes up the meta, then something new would come out that provides counter play and the meta would adjust again. It's not manipulated 10 steps ahead or anything, but I know they brainstorm future counter play for models during its development. LotF has been out in the wild from CID just long enough that they are certainly aware that some counter play would be appreciated in the near future. Also, I think you attribute every rule that doesn't please you to be the product of incompetence. You have a really high opinion of your opinions. Summoning mechanic roller coaster ride pretty much speaks for itself.
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Post by anderfreak on Apr 16, 2019 23:21:19 GMT
Given the entire history of WMH development I think you're giving them too little. This is exactly how the power curve of mk2 evolved, something powerful would get released that shakes up the meta, then something new would come out that provides counter play and the meta would adjust again. It's not manipulated 10 steps ahead or anything, but I know they brainstorm future counter play for models during its development. LotF has been out in the wild from CID just long enough that they are certainly aware that some counter play would be appreciated in the near future. Also, I think you attribute every rule that doesn't please you to be the product of incompetence. You have a really high opinion of your opinions. Summoning mechanic roller coaster ride pretty much speaks for itself. Only because you don't like where it ended up. Get over it.
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Post by paradox on Apr 17, 2019 1:12:39 GMT
Summoning mechanic roller coaster ride pretty much speaks for itself. Only because you don't like where it ended up. Get over it. Like you should get over my opinion you dont agree with?
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Post by paradox on Apr 17, 2019 1:17:23 GMT
More seriously, I STRONGLY doubt that Infernals/Oblivion stuff was remotely in place running up to, or during, Dev Host CID.
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Post by custardboy on Apr 17, 2019 2:05:45 GMT
It doesn't really matter because the Archon is a minion and isn't available to everyone and no minion should be auto include in every army. Most factions can't take it, so most factions still suck the LotF. 12" is a huge bubble, especially for recursion which tends to struggle in the game anyway. I really doubt that.
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Post by jisidro on Apr 17, 2019 8:17:18 GMT
Given the entire history of WMH development I think you're giving them too little. This is exactly how the power curve of mk2 evolved, something powerful would get released that shakes up the meta, then something new would come out that provides counter play and the meta would adjust again. It's not manipulated 10 steps ahead or anything, but I know they brainstorm future counter play for models during its development. LotF has been out in the wild from CID just long enough that they are certainly aware that some counter play would be appreciated in the near future. Also, I think you attribute every rule that doesn't please you to be the product of incompetence. You have a really high opinion of your opinions. Summoning mechanic roller coaster ride pretty much speaks for itself. I give them a lot of credit but the roller-coaster prevented real testing of a lot of rules. The CID tried to define everything at the same time from the summoning to the specifics of each model. It took me a long time, CID wise, to believe they had no idea of the summoning they wanted.
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Post by sand20go on Apr 17, 2019 14:00:40 GMT
Summoning mechanic roller coaster ride pretty much speaks for itself. I give them a lot of credit but the roller-coaster prevented real testing of a lot of rules. The CID tried to define everything at the same time from the summoning to the specifics of each model. It took me a long time, CID wise, to believe they had no idea of the summoning they wanted. +1. But I also think it gets at that PP has limited playtest capabilities. If you think about it realistically, it would require significant man hour investments. They have a relatively small development group - who also needs/is working on Riot Quest, MonPoc, Oblivion Campaign, etc. etc. The staff instability doesn't lend themselves to a happy group of volunteer playtesters showing up 2-3 nights a week in Seattle to run stuff through the paces week after week after week.) So what we saw, I think, was a summoning mechanic that had gotten 5-10 play test games in (maybe more but definately not in aht high 2 figures of games) and then was released into the wild with tweeks coming fast and furious as more play testing and discussion of recaps found themselves. I think the way to really unpack this for LotF is to go back (if you really are bored) and look at all the playtested games with him and see how many had some of the Oppressive jank in them. I would bet you some bits from my bit jar that probably less than 1/2 and so he slipped through. They have been loath to nerf things immediately (tend to agree) unless it is a really horrid oversight and thus he is where he is. Not meant as a criticism of PP - just an observation. If they wanted to really playtest as much as we expect them to they would have 3-4 people JUST doing that - likely costing them a minimum of 200,000 all in when you consider benefits, taxes, etc. That is a BIG investment. Alternative is to have 1 or 2 guys cultivating that group of volunteers in Seattle with NDAs.....but that probably only saves you 100K since the skill set to be able to organize and cultivate that is limited -- and that guy/gal is putting in LONG days of both sitting in on development meetings AND organizing and collecting data from Playtest sessions. PS. And having just gotten back from a LONG con I can tell you that the idea of playing WM/H for 8 hours a day; 5 days a week SOUNDS good on paper but likely would grow very old very fast - especially at the wages that PP could afford (entry level white collar work). Sure, we love this hobby. Not sure we love it that much and I know I feel fine to take a break or 2 after just 3 days of that sort of immersion in the hobby.
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Post by Deadneck on Apr 18, 2019 4:28:12 GMT
I give them a lot of credit but the roller-coaster prevented real testing of a lot of rules. The CID tried to define everything at the same time from the summoning to the specifics of each model. It took me a long time, CID wise, to believe they had no idea of the summoning they wanted. +1. But I also think it gets at that PP has limited playtest capabilities. If you think about it realistically, it would require significant man hour investments. They have a relatively small development group - who also needs/is working on Riot Quest, MonPoc, Oblivion Campaign, etc. etc. The staff instability doesn't lend themselves to a happy group of volunteer playtesters showing up 2-3 nights a week in Seattle to run stuff through the paces week after week after week.) So what we saw, I think, was a summoning mechanic that had gotten 5-10 play test games in (maybe more but definately not in aht high 2 figures of games) and then was released into the wild with tweeks coming fast and furious as more play testing and discussion of recaps found themselves. I don't think many people have a problem with the limitations that they have on internal playtesting due to staffing. I would argue that the part people dislike in CID is when they steadfastly refuse to listen to consistent feedback and change course if needed. They've shown they'd rather hammer a square peg into a round hole rather than simply accept their original intent just doesn't work. There's a word of wisdom in any design position that you should never get so hooked on an idea that you can't let it go, and I think they have a tendency to keep their vision on life support even when everyone tells them it's not working. Perhaps I'm alone in thinking this, but between the Infernal CID and the way they shut down any discussion that steps even slightly outside of the box they've set up during testing that's the issue I'm left with.
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Post by streetpizza on Apr 18, 2019 15:34:51 GMT
+1. But I also think it gets at that PP has limited playtest capabilities. If you think about it realistically, it would require significant man hour investments. They have a relatively small development group - who also needs/is working on Riot Quest, MonPoc, Oblivion Campaign, etc. etc. The staff instability doesn't lend themselves to a happy group of volunteer playtesters showing up 2-3 nights a week in Seattle to run stuff through the paces week after week after week.) So what we saw, I think, was a summoning mechanic that had gotten 5-10 play test games in (maybe more but definately not in aht high 2 figures of games) and then was released into the wild with tweeks coming fast and furious as more play testing and discussion of recaps found themselves. I don't think many people have a problem with the limitations that they have on internal playtesting due to staffing. I would argue that the part people dislike in CID is when they steadfastly refuse to listen to consistent feedback and change course if needed. They've shown they'd rather hammer a square peg into a round hole rather than simply accept their original intent just doesn't work. There's a word of wisdom in any design position that you should never get so hooked on an idea that you can't let it go, and I think they have a tendency to keep their vision on life support even when everyone tells them it's not working. Perhaps I'm alone in thinking this, but between the Infernal CID and the way they shut down any discussion that steps even slightly outside of the box they've set up during testing that's the issue I'm left with. That's mostly a Soles problem. Conversations with all other Dev's seem to go reasonably well but whenever Soles pops in he's really intractable. Given that he's the boss I'm sure the poop flows down hill from there.
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Post by sand20go on Apr 18, 2019 22:18:35 GMT
I don't think many people have a problem with the limitations that they have on internal playtesting due to staffing. I would argue that the part people dislike in CID is when they steadfastly refuse to listen to consistent feedback and change course if needed. They've shown they'd rather hammer a square peg into a round hole rather than simply accept their original intent just doesn't work. There's a word of wisdom in any design position that you should never get so hooked on an idea that you can't let it go, and I think they have a tendency to keep their vision on life support even when everyone tells them it's not working. Perhaps I'm alone in thinking this, but between the Infernal CID and the way they shut down any discussion that steps even slightly outside of the box they've set up during testing that's the issue I'm left with. That's mostly a Soles problem. Conversations with all other Dev's seem to go reasonably well but whenever Soles pops in he's really intractable. Given that he's the boss I'm sure the poop flows down hill from there. I am not going to name names because that isn't useful. What I would say is that I am not sure the development team puts competitive warmachine front and center in their thoughts. So you get "weird stuff" like the new gun on the Oblivion solo that is a quasi TK. That clearly is broken in competitive warmachine with Killboxes and scenario play. If you are doing beer and pretzels it is fun. You could even see the tension on the CID roll out.
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Post by paradox on Apr 19, 2019 3:10:26 GMT
That's mostly a Soles problem. Conversations with all other Dev's seem to go reasonably well but whenever Soles pops in he's really intractable. Given that he's the boss I'm sure the poop flows down hill from there. I am not going to name names because that isn't useful. What I would say is that I am not sure the development team puts competitive warmachine front and center in their thoughts. So you get "weird stuff" like the new gun on the Oblivion solo that is a quasi TK. That clearly is broken in competitive warmachine with Killboxes and scenario play. If you are doing beer and pretzels it is fun. You could even see the tension on the CID roll out. Corneir’s gun cant place warcasters, warlocks, or masters though, so it does absolutely nothing for Killbox. It can place for scenario play, but theres a fair bit of “cant place” counterplay exisiting in the meta so probably not a huge deal. Its strong, but probably not for the stated reasons.
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