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Post by cainuslupus on Feb 11, 2019 22:31:33 GMT
My take: - models for this game are shitty (design, material, assembly) and very expensive, to the point it makes one sad how out of touch PP is - but second hand market was never cheaper where I live, you can buy shit for 25% of retail price (back in the day 70% of cheapest internet store was gentlemans agreement), sometimes less, it's crazy! - except there are so few people to play with it feels like poor investment (I kinda regret now buying Circle/Legion models for 15% value) - GW stopped being stupid (purging heretics in management did help) and does stuff people expects of them - marvelous design pouring out of CiD like Tharns or Judicator further alienates players. I mean FFS, Pagani need a standing ovation on the way out, I've been at team tourney this weekend and met new player who just played against double Judis three times in a F-ing row. I'm sure he'll stay in the game after having such meaningful tactical experience! I've also met newbie who was brutalized by both Iona and Anamag. Pagani, if you're reading this: you had one job and messed it completelly. If someone who knows Pagani is reading this, please deliver him this message. - And Judicator. Oh, boy, Judicator. Of all Gargossals they could go braindead it had to be the ugliest one by a large margin. You know how people get hooked by looking at beatiful minis at scenery of the table - except this game with flat terrain and double derp Duplo models that look like made from paper-mache. There is something in PP stupidity that makes you wan't to hug them and ask "Why are you doing this to yourself? Because of lazines?". Or maybe they had full warehouses of this crap and I'm just naive? - I've won 4 and lost one game, so I'm not salty, just sad. - hardcore competitive crowd is not though - good for them - fortunatelly I'm not one of them and I'm planning having fun in upcoming Vanguard campaign - I have no faith in PP anymore and plan to spent my money elsewhere.
Also I'm not as edgy as McDermont (despite my efforts) but what can you do: no amount of hard work can substitute true talent.
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Post by dogganmguest on Feb 12, 2019 0:29:08 GMT
My take: <<Cautious optimism>> Don't hold back, man! I don't think Pagani necessarily needs to bear the brunt of that attack though. It's not like the whole show was run by him, and it is still possible the plan was to boost everything up a bit to be on an even level (but that level is not the average now, making average stuff look worse). Since there's still so much left to work on, it's going to take at least 2-3 years to find out if that is even true.
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Post by challenger on Feb 12, 2019 6:11:59 GMT
In some ways WMH is the Crossfit of the wargaming community 😊 No way, that would be 40k. Crossfit is flashy and glamy and spreads a lie (work REALLY hard for an hour a few times a week - you will look like these crossfit champions on ESPN - fact check - people who win crossfit games do not train using crossfit, as it isn't optimal). Warmahordes is the grungy dirty gym powerlifting of wargaming. Bunch of huge meatheats in a garage with no heat grunting and lifting hundreds of pounds of deadlift just to say they can. Ain't no prize and glory for playing warma. I don't know what 40k does to spread lies. It's more casual and more relaxed, both community and balance wise. But people have fun throwing their dice and working on their models and i never see them act super religious about 40k like Warmachine people act towards 40k
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Post by challenger on Feb 12, 2019 6:22:30 GMT
On an unrelated note:
i think one myth needs to be dispelled which is the myth that Warmachine is only competing with Warmachine sized games. It's a fairly common defense of the price gap that i've seen, which is extremely convenient way to handwave the flood of smaller skirmish games on the market.
At the end of the day, if it's hitting the same "decision making, tactical buzz" while also being a mini game that lets you have cool models you enjoy working on and talking about and rolling some dice with friends it's competing with Warmachine. People only have so much time and money for a hobby, if everyone had unlimited time and unlimited money then we wouldn't have to choose.
Consider someone has $100 a week they want to spend on their miniatures hobby divided out into their paint, models and accessories, and they have one to two nights a week they can play for a few hours. What is more likely to win out if the same itch is being scratched anyway, the more expensive one or the less expensive ones that come with better quality models? (<-- Let's not joke, PP's models are pretty bad quality on the scale of minis)
That's just talking price-wise, there's some much more specific personal arguments on *why* you'd prefer WMHs lore/models/gameplay to another game however.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Feb 12, 2019 10:23:05 GMT
PP's new models are pretty great. The resin/metal combination is excellent and I gladly pay premium for them. Unfortunately the game sucks, but at least they finally got the model thing right IMO. (To provide some reference/context, I've worked with models from Wyrd, Warcradle, GW, CMON, Scale 75, Painting Buddha, Kingdom Death, GCT Studios etc etc.. forgetting some for sure).
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Feb 12, 2019 12:46:20 GMT
PP's new models are pretty great. The resin/metal combination is excellent and I gladly pay premium for them. Unfortunately the game sucks, but at least they finally got the model thing right IMO. (To provide some reference/context, I've worked with models from Wyrd, Warcradle, GW, CMON, Scale 75, Painting Buddha, Kingdom Death, GCT Studios etc etc.. forgetting some for sure). While I agree PP models are better than they used to be it took them way too long to get to this standard so the model line is full of ugly sculpts and the game has a reputation for them. Their their plastics are also still behind even smaller competitors like Wyrd.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Feb 12, 2019 13:05:19 GMT
Can I just interupt here and say that PPs Models are NOT generally bad quality? Who claims that? Restic models are not very good quality. Metal Models are BETTER than anything GW made back in the day. Resin Quality is BETTER than forgeworld. Hard plastic is wose, not in quality, but in amount of Detail and design. And more little Detail is not always better. Go build and paint 30 Skitarii and then post again ...
Most of the things that you need will be Metal/Resin and those are good models. The Restic is bad, but they tone it down more and more. And Bad means more work to prepare, but nothing tha you cannot get good quality minis out of.
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Post by slaughtersun on Feb 12, 2019 13:44:35 GMT
As with any line, PP has great models and crap models.
For every gw knight i can find you a mountain king... for every possessed chaos space marine i can show you some blighted nyss swordsmen...the list is endless and to ve fair, irrelevant.
PP models have vastly improved in the last few years... plastic not so much but its getting there.
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 12, 2019 14:13:27 GMT
On an unrelated note: i think one myth needs to be dispelled which is the myth that Warmachine is only competing with Warmachine sized games. It's a fairly common defense of the price gap that i've seen, which is extremely convenient way to handwave the flood of smaller skirmish games on the market. At the end of the day, if it's hitting the same "decision making, tactical buzz" while also being a mini game that lets you have cool models you enjoy working on and talking about and rolling some dice with friends it's competing with Warmachine. People only have so much time and money for a hobby, if everyone had unlimited time and unlimited money then we wouldn't have to choose. Consider someone has $100 a week they want to spend on their miniatures hobby divided out into their paint, models and accessories, and they have one to two nights a week they can play for a few hours. What is more likely to win out if the same itch is being scratched anyway, the more expensive one or the less expensive ones that come with better quality models? (<-- Let's not joke, PP's models are pretty bad quality on the scale of minis) That's just talking price-wise, there's some much more specific personal arguments on *why* you'd prefer WMHs lore/models/gameplay to another game however. No, that's not a myth, though. Might as well say that if you're a fan of basketball, you're a fan of golf. They're both about people putting a ball in a hole. Most of the size comparisons have been with Warhammer, not with Infinity or Malifaux, which is the exact opposite direction.
There was an "introductory price" post which compared WMH to Infinity, but that, too, was improperly comparing two levels of product purchase. In almost the same breath, he tried to compare to a sports board game, too. Nor was it dismissed as not using the hobby dollar and time of the purchaser.
In short, your "myth" is a straw man, at least for this forum. It may be a reason used in your local group, but it really doesn't fly here.
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Post by cainuslupus on Feb 12, 2019 14:20:34 GMT
Can I just interupt here and say that PPs Models are NOT generally bad quality? Who claims that? Restic models are not very good quality. Metal Models are BETTER than anything GW made back in the day. Resin Quality is BETTER than forgeworld. Hard plastic is wose, not in quality, but in amount of Detail and design. And more little Detail is not always better. Go build and paint 30 Skitarii and then post again ... Most of the things that you need will be Metal/Resin and those are good models. The Restic is bad, but they tone it down more and more. And Bad means more work to prepare, but nothing tha you cannot get good quality minis out of. Generally as of most models you get? It's very bad quality, subpar comparing to existing competition. Even if model looks great it's usually shit to assemble. There are of course good models, like Croc Pot, but they are unfortunatelly rare. BAHI models are generally shit AFAIK needing hours to assemble because of gigantic gaps and not matching parts. GW stopped producing metals how many years ago? So it's cute you're comparing to them. But they are usually good models that are painful to assemble. Literary painful, every Nyss bring new scars when you try to pin those little wrists to smaller hands. And restic models are often impossible to get good results without insane amount of work because some genius at PP thought it would be funny to run mould lines at most intricate detail, like ornamented armour or face (lol).
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Feb 12, 2019 15:05:39 GMT
Generally as of most models you get? It's very bad quality, subpar comparing to existing competition. Even if model looks great it's usually shit to assemble. There are of course good models, like Croc Pot, but they are unfortunatelly rare. BAHI models are generally shit AFAIK needing hours to assemble because of gigantic gaps and not matching parts. GW stopped producing metals how many years ago? So it's cute you're comparing to them. But they are usually good models that are painful to assemble. Literary painful, every Nyss bring new scars when you try to pin those little wrists to smaller hands. And restic models are often impossible to get good results without insane amount of work because some genius at PP thought it would be funny to run mould lines at most intricate detail, like ornamented armour or face (lol). GW makes Metal miniatures to this day. They just don't make new ones anymore, and they are slowly fading out (Penitent engine is still metal as are regimental advisors and anything from "made to order"). These Miniatures have worse quality than PP. Most people did not assemble GW Metal for a while, but I still have some stuff lying around here and it has not aged well at all. Yes PPs recent models are newer designs, but then you would have to admit that they impoved on quality over time. You also cannot blame anything on Nyss hunters, c'mon they seem to be infamously horrible. Modern metal/resin models work very well for PP. And how are people(I'm NOT trying to be offensive, kay?) not able to remove a mold line from a face? Its annoying but far from impossible... And yes just for the record the GW metal minis also have them on their faces sometimes and often over detail. For the new GW plastics to really remove mold lines is also a horror. People that claim they are not there, aren't looking close enough(yes many piece have clever designs, but a mold is still a mold that makes lines). I may be oldschool there, but I am okay with PPs minis requiring some handcraft and even modern GW sprues keep you (very!) busy building the miniatures. I never build any non GW/PP so that is just my horizion of knowledge
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Post by slaughtersun on Feb 12, 2019 15:57:37 GMT
What i've found with the recent GW plastics (which are awesome and way ahead of what any other company is doing out there save perhaps for Malifaux, dont get me wrong!) Is that there are too many little details that are just begging to be broken: pipes and tentacles and little blades and other stuff.
Removing mold lines from them is a nightmare as are removing them from plasma coils.
The overall assembly / weight for transport is better than metal but thats about it.
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Post by cainuslupus on Feb 12, 2019 16:00:04 GMT
Generally as of most models you get? It's very bad quality, subpar comparing to existing competition. Even if model looks great it's usually shit to assemble. There are of course good models, like Croc Pot, but they are unfortunatelly rare. BAHI models are generally shit AFAIK needing hours to assemble because of gigantic gaps and not matching parts. GW stopped producing metals how many years ago? So it's cute you're comparing to them. But they are usually good models that are painful to assemble. Literary painful, every Nyss bring new scars when you try to pin those little wrists to smaller hands. And restic models are often impossible to get good results without insane amount of work because some genius at PP thought it would be funny to run mould lines at most intricate detail, like ornamented armour or face (lol). GW makes Metal miniatures to this day. They just don't make new ones anymore, and they are slowly fading out (Penitent engine is still metal as are regimental advisors and anything from "made to order"). These Miniatures have worse quality than PP. Most people did not assemble GW Metal for a while, but I still have some stuff lying around here and it has not aged well at all. Yes PPs recent models are newer designs, but then you would have to admit that they impoved on quality over time. You also cannot blame anything on Nyss hunters, c'mon they seem to be infamously horrible. Modern metal/resin models work very well for PP. And how are people(I'm NOT trying to be offensive, kay?) not able to remove a mold line from a face? Its annoying but far from impossible... And yes just for the record the GW metal minis also have them on their faces sometimes and often over detail. For the new GW plastics to really remove mold lines is also a horror. People that claim they are not there, aren't looking close enough(yes many piece have clever designs, but a mold is still a mold that makes lines). I may be oldschool there, but I am okay with PPs minis requiring some handcraft and even modern GW sprues keep you (very!) busy building the miniatures. I never build any non GW/PP so that is just my horizion of knowledge Few clarifications: removing mould lines from fine detail (like face) is arduous task with shitty PP restic. I know this for a fact, so does Circle people who had missfortune to assemble Mist Riders. I have some GW metals, they're nice (if little carricatural). PP are mostly looking better, but are pain to assemble. Clearing mould lines from hard plastic is a breeze. You can even buy a tool for that which works great. When speaking of Nyss I had in mind ALL metal Nyss, like fairly new Witches for Legion. Attaching those hands - mmmhmm. So much fun. New GW sprues keeps you busy? Which ones? They are fun to assemble, same as Wyrd or Mantic(Renedra) ones. But even PP restic is below new Mantic ones. slaughtersun - buy citadel plastic cleaning tool. You will thank me later. It removes mouldlines from hard plastic easilly and you really need to try to destroy even small detail with it. It's probably only Citadel tool worth its price (everything else you'll buy cheaper from hobby stores).
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Feb 12, 2019 16:25:26 GMT
I've been at team tourney this weekend and met new player who just played against double Judis three times in a F-ing row. I'm sure he'll stay in the game after having such meaningful tactical experience! I've also met newbie who was brutalized by both Iona and Anamag. Pagani, if you're reading this: you had one job and messed it completelly. If someone who knows Pagani is reading this, please deliver him this message. - And Judicator. Oh, boy, Judicator. Of all Gargossals they could go braindead it had to be the ugliest one by a large margin. You know how people get hooked by looking at beatiful minis at scenery of the table - except this game with flat terrain and double derp Duplo models that look like made from paper-mache. During this tournament I saw the Trident and the Railless Interceptor for the first time...and what a disappointing sight it was! Really tiny for a model which is supposed to be formidable and huge. In addition - featureless, boring design. Other BE's can look so epic and impressive - Animantarax, Supreme Guardian or the Legion Throne are pretty cool, if costly. But would be incredibly disappointed if I got a sad, cheap toy like the Trident or Interceptor after paying through the nose for it.
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Post by peemster on Feb 12, 2019 21:35:08 GMT
Can I just interupt here and say that PPs Models are NOT generally bad quality? Who claims that? Restic models are not very good quality. Metal Models are BETTER than anything GW made back in the day. Resin Quality is BETTER than forgeworld. Hard plastic is wose, not in quality, but in amount of Detail and design. And more little Detail is not always better. Go build and paint 30 Skitarii and then post again ... Most of the things that you need will be Metal/Resin and those are good models. The Restic is bad, but they tone it down more and more. And Bad means more work to prepare, but nothing tha you cannot get good quality minis out of. Hear, hear!
I disagree with this, though - "For the new GW plastics to really remove mold lines is also a horror."
My experience has been that GW plastics are by far the easiest, quickest models to clean and assemble. Mold lines are never easier to clean than when on hard plastic.
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