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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Feb 11, 2019 0:52:33 GMT
Because we're all aware of how much it costs to make a 75pts WMH army and what would it accomplish really? It would just reduce the thread to bickering over cherry picked examples. Yet, you were cherry picking examples by using the 75pm WMH army... Did people start commonly playing any other point size?
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 11, 2019 0:59:27 GMT
I claim this entire argument is moot. Warma could half all MSRPs tomorrow. More players would not come. GW could double priced tomorrow. I doubt that many players would leave. In the big picture, war gaming is a time hungry not a cost hungry game for many of its players (like me) Or a little bit of both, like me. But you are right. People won't flock to WMH until they know they won't be driven out by the hyper-competitive.
People are driven out by the hyper-competitive in 40K, there just happen to be enough casuals floating around, or even competitive players WILLING to play casually. Some people are driven back by the hobby aspect of WMH. It is easier than Corvus Belli's Infinity, thanks to its Heroic Scale, but their resin and metal do not model as easily or as well as Citadel models do. In addition, the detail on troops for WMH and Infinity is crazy high, while quite minimal for most of the Citadel models when it comes to painting. The money will either be there or it won't. It is a hobby, so it will always be based on available income and the local community's inclusiveness, even for the scary modeling and painting detail we see for Infinity and WMH. Yet, you were cherry picking examples by using the 75pm WMH army... Did people start commonly playing any other point size? Yeah, ZERO points. You know, the standard Battlebox one starts a JML with?
Of course in Mk 1, it was closer to 120 points, but then, too, the Warcaster cost points instead of freeing them up. Mk 2 was about 12 points, because the Warcaster could discount a Light instead of most of a Colossal.
It is there for the introduction to the game, why not use it instead of expecting them to go whole hog in to the experience when they may prefer other aspects of the game.
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Post by sand20go on Feb 11, 2019 3:30:25 GMT
Well.....
I am looking at the LVO Masters Champion Lists pair.
I don't have time to do the exact math with but 2 Seige and 1 Derp and Double Immortals with fixings you are looking at about $750 MSRP for the 2 lists . Now remember, this is the new hotness - with likely at least $300-400 in post Immortals CID investment.
THAT is the problem with the game right now. Bluntly there is a "play to win" aspect of what we are seeing. The game still comes down to skill but there are advantages in being willing to invest significantly on an ongoing basis to chase "hotness".
That is the biggest challenge WM/H has - do you really tell someone that to be competitive they have to drop that much money?
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Post by mcdermott on Feb 11, 2019 4:00:06 GMT
Well..... I am looking at the LVO Masters Champion Lists pair. I don't have time to do the exact math with but 2 Seige and 1 Derp and Double Immortals with fixings you are looking at about $750 MSRP for the 2 lists . Now remember, this is the new hotness - with likely at least $300-400 in post Immortals CID investment. THAT is the problem with the game right now. Bluntly there is a "play to win" aspect of what we are seeing. The game still comes down to skill but there are advantages in being willing to invest significantly on an ongoing basis to chase "hotness". That is the biggest challenge WM/H has - do you really tell someone that to be competitive they have to drop that much money? I'll take things that have never been any different in GW for 1000 alex. New codex creep has always been a thing
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Post by sand20go on Feb 11, 2019 4:08:46 GMT
Well..... I am looking at the LVO Masters Champion Lists pair. I don't have time to do the exact math with but 2 Seige and 1 Derp and Double Immortals with fixings you are looking at about $750 MSRP for the 2 lists . Now remember, this is the new hotness - with likely at least $300-400 in post Immortals CID investment. THAT is the problem with the game right now. Bluntly there is a "play to win" aspect of what we are seeing. The game still comes down to skill but there are advantages in being willing to invest significantly on an ongoing basis to chase "hotness". That is the biggest challenge WM/H has - do you really tell someone that to be competitive they have to drop that much money? I'll take things that have never been any different in GW for 1000 alex. New codex creep has always been a thing The problem is that the core marketing message for GW is NOT competitive play. In fact, very little of the marketing message is that. Conversely, that is at the heart of PP.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Feb 11, 2019 5:07:04 GMT
I'll take things that have never been any different in GW for 1000 alex. New codex creep has always been a thing The problem is that the core marketing message for GW is NOT competitive play. In fact, very little of the marketing message is that. Conversely, that is at the heart of PP. Competitive play hasn't been the marketing message from PP either. Which in my opinion is a failure of marketing for Mk3. "Your army your way" was most certainly not a call to action for the highly competitive. Also. The ITC 40k Tournament at LVO had a 4000 dollar prize for the winner.
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 11, 2019 5:13:03 GMT
I'll take things that have never been any different in GW for 1000 alex. New codex creep has always been a thing The problem is that the core marketing message for GW is NOT competitive play. In fact, very little of the marketing message is that. Conversely, that is at the heart of PP. It may not be the core marketing message of GW, but it is for a good portion of American communities, I can tell you that. And don't act like PP doesn't put out anything but competitive marketing.
Codex alterations can lead to the purchase of everything but the Troop array and possibly the HQs. The Heavy Support and Lord of War kits are not often cheap, and often require 3 purchases to be viable, while Elites run the gambit of not-as-cheap 5-man kits purchased in twos to singletons purchased at a high level. Heck, the 7th Ed SM Codex saw a massive purchasing desire for Razorback or Drop Pod kits when they could take 6+ of them or their Rhino bases for zero points. I bet they really felt the bite when 8th Edition came along and removed that Army Build option along with making Transports less desirable (from the reports I've read).
Fantasy Battles could be just as bad, with each box only providing 2 Ranks of the Core unit (if it was a current sprue, a mid-point if older), and 1 Rank for the rest (if not a monster, and even then). AoS cleared some of that mess up, just to add a new set of disasters to the formula.
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Post by mcdermott on Feb 11, 2019 7:33:09 GMT
Its funny because the best received killteam product is arena, the competitive tournament expansion/format
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Post by beardmonk on Feb 11, 2019 9:15:40 GMT
We need to accept that WMH is not a game that everyone will like. I also play Malifaux. M3e will be a huge boost for the game etc but despite all a of that I have to accept that many people who are put off by the card mechanic or athletics of the game will never play it. It’s the same with WM/H.
In the last 6 months or so I think the community has come along in great leaps and bounds in terms of becoming more positive, looking to the future. Chain Attacks community builders is part of that but the community just feels more “alive” than it did before. We are sorting out our own internal messes. However I think that as a game we still have an image issue when it comes to the rest of the wargaming community. Price and cost/value is part of that issue for all the reasons we have discussed here on this thread. I hope that this is something that the new CEO will start to tackle in some way. But the image of WMH needs addressing. And even when/if it is, there are people who will still hate on the game.
In some ways WMH is the Crossfit of the wargaming community 😊
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mrtuna
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by mrtuna on Feb 11, 2019 14:37:50 GMT
In some ways WMH is the Crossfit of the wargaming community 😊 No way, that would be 40k. Crossfit is flashy and glamy and spreads a lie (work REALLY hard for an hour a few times a week - you will look like these crossfit champions on ESPN - fact check - people who win crossfit games do not train using crossfit, as it isn't optimal). Warmahordes is the grungy dirty gym powerlifting of wargaming. Bunch of huge meatheats in a garage with no heat grunting and lifting hundreds of pounds of deadlift just to say they can. Ain't no prize and glory for playing warma.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Feb 11, 2019 18:01:36 GMT
Its funny because the best received killteam product is arena, the competitive tournament expansion/format What tells you it's the best received?
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Feb 11, 2019 18:46:57 GMT
Its funny because the best received killteam product is arena, the competitive tournament expansion/format What tells you it's the best received? I assume he's going by internet opinion, which like many things isn't a great barometer for public opinion due to the vocal minority being the most obvious presence.
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Post by mcdermott on Feb 11, 2019 20:31:49 GMT
What tells you it's the best received? I assume he's going by internet opinion, which like many things isn't a great barometer for public opinion due to the vocal minority being the most obvious presence. So internet opinion is dead on when it comes to complaining about warmahordes but not really the best barometer when it comes to GW products selling better when they're aimed at competitive tournament play. I see, I see....
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Feb 11, 2019 21:34:19 GMT
I assume he's going by internet opinion, which like many things isn't a great barometer for public opinion due to the vocal minority being the most obvious presence. So internet opinion is dead on when it comes to complaining about warmahordes but not really the best barometer when it comes to GW products selling better when they're aimed at competitive tournament play. I see, I see.... Don't remember saying that. But I will say that the WMH community is much smaller and taking part in the online community is much more important due the competitive nature of the game.
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Post by mcdermott on Feb 11, 2019 22:03:11 GMT
Really? Cause like 3/4 of the old eugene community listened to a couple podcasts, posted in their own circle of social media (private forums and chatrooms) and viewed "the internet community" as a flaming pile of hot trash good for very little other than regurgitating other peoples lists and overreacting to every nerf or buff. Methinks the online community overvalues its position in the competitive nature of the game.
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