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Post by Charistoph on Feb 10, 2019 15:58:57 GMT
- The focus on tournament level competitive play and the ending of the Press Ganger programme means that most WMH groups only play 75pts Steamroller games which has the knock on effect of barring people from easily finding games until they have a full army. Again because of themes a full list is more like 100pts when you account for "free" warjacks, solos and CAs. PP has A focus on tournament level competitive play, and only at the behest of the community, it is not THE focus of the company.
GW has not designed either 40K or AoS to be a competitive game, but there was as much tournament of both happening at LVO this weekend as their was of WMH (one guy even had his army stolen, may he get it back). The only difference is that GW hasn't made ATC/ITC a regular setup like PP did with Steamroller at the community's behest. In other words, PP listened to their community while GW ignores them.
The PG program didn't reduce the competitive aspect of the game. In fact, it promoted it even more in some areas as many PGs tried to set them up for their benefit.
PP has released numerous scenarios and side games over the years for narrative play, but the COMMUNITY ignored them, and would have with or without the PG program. If there is any obsession on 75pt Steamroller in your local community, it is the players that are the problem, not PP.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Feb 10, 2019 16:29:33 GMT
- The focus on tournament level competitive play and the ending of the Press Ganger programme means that most WMH groups only play 75pts Steamroller games which has the knock on effect of barring people from easily finding games until they have a full army. Again because of themes a full list is more like 100pts when you account for "free" warjacks, solos and CAs. PP has A focus on tournament level competitive play, and only at the behest of the community, it is not THE focus of the company.
GW has not designed either 40K or AoS to be a competitive game, but there was as much tournament of both happening at LVO this weekend as their was of WMH (one guy even had his army stolen, may he get it back). The only difference is that GW hasn't made ATC/ITC a regular setup like PP did with Steamroller at the community's behest. In other words, PP listened to their community while GW ignores them.
The PG program didn't reduce the competitive aspect of the game. In fact, it promoted it even more in some areas as many PGs tried to set them up for their benefit.
PP has released numerous scenarios and side games over the years for narrative play, but the COMMUNITY ignored them, and would have with or without the PG program. If there is any obsession on 75pt Steamroller in your local community, it is the players that are the problem, not PP.
I'm aware of this but I wanted to stay focussed on the pricing issues rather than devolve into another community blaming rant. And while GW competitive events are big, you need to remember just how big the Warhammer community is. For every competitive Warhammer player theres probably 50 casual players who will never go near a tournament, whereas WMH players generally aspire to tournaments.
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 10, 2019 16:40:23 GMT
PP has A focus on tournament level competitive play, and only at the behest of the community, it is not THE focus of the company.
GW has not designed either 40K or AoS to be a competitive game, but there was as much tournament of both happening at LVO this weekend as their was of WMH (one guy even had his army stolen, may he get it back). The only difference is that GW hasn't made ATC/ITC a regular setup like PP did with Steamroller at the community's behest. In other words, PP listened to their community while GW ignores them.
The PG program didn't reduce the competitive aspect of the game. In fact, it promoted it even more in some areas as many PGs tried to set them up for their benefit.
PP has released numerous scenarios and side games over the years for narrative play, but the COMMUNITY ignored them, and would have with or without the PG program. If there is any obsession on 75pt Steamroller in your local community, it is the players that are the problem, not PP.
I'm aware of this but I wanted to stay focussed on the pricing issues rather than devolve into another community blaming rant. And while GW competitive events are big, you need to remember just how big the Warhammer community is. For every competitive Warhammer player theres probably 50 casual players who will never go near a tournament, whereas WMH players generally aspire to tournaments.
You brought it up in that point which did not state anything about pricing. You talked about focus and the PG, and only mildly (and inaccurately) referenced list size without mentioning cost.
And for every WMH player at a tournament, there are probably 50 players who don't know there are other local casual players who would like to play with them because the Steamrollers drove them out.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Feb 10, 2019 18:06:17 GMT
I'm aware of this but I wanted to stay focussed on the pricing issues rather than devolve into another community blaming rant. And while GW competitive events are big, you need to remember just how big the Warhammer community is. For every competitive Warhammer player theres probably 50 casual players who will never go near a tournament, whereas WMH players generally aspire to tournaments.
You brought it up in that point which did not state anything about pricing. You talked about focus and the PG, and only mildly (and inaccurately) referenced list size without mentioning cost.
And for every WMH player at a tournament, there are probably 50 players who don't know there are other local casual players who would like to play with them because the Steamrollers drove them out.
I brought it up because the cost of entry is linked to the communities attitude. PGs didn't just run tournaments, they organised intro evenings, growth leagues and alternative formats which meant that even if you were new and only had a 25pts list you would still have opportunities to play. The large price of entry to even play a game is a symptom of the communities attitudes. We seem to agree on this point and I'm saying price is an issue that is linked. I've dropped out of playing BECAUSE I'm a casual player driven out by the theme format and competitiveness and that is primarily due to the fact that the cost of modifying my armies to fit themes (that I don't really want to play in the first place) is prohibitive. If given the choice of spending €100 on a second identicle, monopose unit of Iron Fangs and solos (and still not meet the theme list) or €100 of various AdMech units I can use straight away I know which I'd prefer.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Feb 10, 2019 19:13:15 GMT
The 40k rules are free as well. Here: www.games-workshop.com/en-IE/Battle-Primer-2017-ENGSo I don't feel like writing a big long post as I'm mobile-posting so I'll summarize. - Perception of value is a thing. GW kits tend to have loads of extra bits and recently have been clearly designed to encourage kit bashing. For example AdMech Skitarii, Genestealer Cult Acolytes and Militarum Tempestus Scions are all compatible with each other. PP models are monopose or have only 2 or 3 sculpts per unit for the most part. You can repose some of the jacks but it takes some work to do anything really interesting. - GW don't discourage kitbashing or conversion which adds to the value of having a lot of spare bits in their kits. I managed to repair the broken off hatch from a Leman Russ by sticking a man in the hatch, adding some AdMech bits and now I have a new tank commander. - GW do not focus on the competitive side of the game, they cultivate playing games within a social circle. This means imbalances and keeping up with rules is only an issue if you play against strangers and don't know if you'll be playing That Guy at the FLGS. Unless your friend is That Guy. Or you are. Most Warhammer players play with friends who will be less insistent on keeping everything up to date or will share their rulebooks and will be less competitive. Keeping up with the tournament meta is not the norm in most Warhammer circles because people lean towards casual play more than competitive. Have you really been following much of what has been going on with 8th, and much of the new GW model releases? The amount of monopose models GW has been releasing, lacking many extra bits (to reduce kitbashing), is insane. Nearly the entire new Death Guard model release is monopose, the Primaris are monoposed, as the weapons for the Intercessors and Hellblasters are keyed to specific arms... Soooo, your only real option is changing the heads and shoulder pads around. The new monopose kits are the future of 40k, as that has been the overall theme of the relases in 8th edition, as near every release 8th edition release has been monopose, or barely changeable to stop people buying from 3rd party bits sellers. The newer GW policy of "No kit no rules" that came about after the Chapter House fiasco, is also another kick in the crotch to kitbashing, because unless it can be bought in a kit, the models lost that option. So the simple conversion/kitbash of a Librarian on a bike was removed from the Codex (among MANY others in the books), as it is no secret that the Indexes are there as a stopgap measure, and they will eventually go away. Making models invalid is something PP does not do, GW does ALL the time. GW just this week cut the fantasy Orc Boys and Boar Riders from the AoS line, and their warscrolls have been moved to Legacy, to die with the rest of the Tolkien-esque non easily IP copywrited fantasy models. Gw has also had a huge focus on the competitive side of 8th edition, as they have the guys from Frontline Gaming working as playtesters for the game, even though the data will be skewed since they only play their own ITS system of 40k. "The Rule of Three", the Fly nerf, the Blood Angels Smash Captain nerf, the "Boots on the Ground" rule, the extra CP for detachments change, the Flyrant, Shining Spear, Guilliman, Magnus, Razorback, Azreal, Mehpiston, and nerfs to many others... Have been the result of tournament data, and talks with tournament players. Did you also see the recent White Dwarf that featured two competitive soup armies by tournament players in that issues battle report? And I would really like to know where you play, that people don't care if you aren't keeping your rules up to date. In the places I have lived and played 40k in (New Hampshire, Georgia, North Carolina, Colorado, and now Texas)... Your statement has only been true of the games I play in my own house on my own gaming table, as my opponent and I are likely drinking, so we are likely playing wrong anyways due to beer. Most places I have lived, people want you to be playing the most up to date rules, and with how available tournament data for 40k is, any forum user will have that data thrown in their face on any 40k forum they are part of. Go onto the forum DakkaDakka (mainly a 40k/AoS forum)... Tournament data, and what units are competitive are in EVERY tactics and general discussion thread. Those tactics threads which only came out when their Codex dropped, have many of them that are over 100 pages long, with a few over 200 pages, that are in depth discussions on what models/options are performing well in tournaments, and the viability of many of the trash 40k units in casual games. And at almost every store I have played at, that tournament data is discussed in the store as well, as people don't like wasting money or time on garbage units. So again, games in 40k are generally a handful of units from each codex that is souped in to the main army now. I can play my Tallarn as a really incoherent and nonsense Astra Militarum army... And still smash a competitive Grey Knights list... Because the ENTIRE army is trash. Even with the new Bolter beta rule, Grey Knights blow. Really badly. Same with most Marine lists, as they cannot keep up with the books that came after them, where models were just getting more and more shots, and more and more AP to set them apart... All of that making a Marine army's T4 3+ save not worth jack. I find it funny that you are acting like EVERY Warmachine/Hordes group is always playing 75 point timed Steamroller deathclock games ONLY using tournament lists. Since I have started playing Warmachine again, I have yet to see a "netlist" in person, and my games have all been casual. Just yesterday, while our games of Warmachine were going on, the 40k players at the store were running their usual jank lists against each other, with the added bonus of running the new super-jank of the Genestealer Cults. Edit. And the rules primer you said is free for 40k? Those rules are pretty much worthless, as they do not have the (lol) "Advanced" rules, missions, detachments, CP, main rulebook stratagems... So, they aren't even a real ruleset, just some crap to get brand new players a quick into.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Feb 10, 2019 19:51:09 GMT
The discussion isn't "who is better" the argument is "does PP have a price issue" to which many people say it does. Most of us agree that GW and WMH are roughly equivalent price so then why is GW more popular? Which is what a majority of my post was about. Its clear you have issues with GW but your personal grudges aren't what we're discussing. Also if you think GW doesn't have a lot of room for kitbashing join the Inquisimunda Facebook group. They dream up stuff I could never conceive of.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Feb 10, 2019 20:17:13 GMT
The discussion isn't "who is better" the argument is "does PP have a price issue" to which many people say it does. Most of us agree that GW and WMH are roughly equivalent price so then why is GW more popular? Which is what a majority of my post was about. Its clear you have issues with GW but your personal grudges aren't what we're discussing. Also if you think GW doesn't have a lot of room for kitbashing join the Inquisimunda Facebook group. They dream up stuff I could never conceive of. Haha, you are the one that brought that up to begin with... But my points were that the overall value of GW vs PP models is less. As models are likely to become worthless in a Chapter Approved or new edition, or to just end up being deleted as options. I am far less likely to want to do extensive conversions, or buy expensive models, when that purchase will no go very far. My Mk.I Winter Guard and 'jacks are just as valid now as they have been, they have not been deleted from the game, and will continue to always be useful. The same cannot be said of 40k models, as they are likely to go away like my Rough Riders of Griphon Heavy Mortars. A more current example is most of the Marine line becoming Direct Order Only from GW, and the Primaris models slowly working on phasing out the old Marine line in favor of them. So soon my full Battle Company of Blood Angels may not even be playable? And did you read my example of making a Guard squad with their options? The heavy and special weapon options (besides a Flamer and Grenade Launcher), are not in the base kit. So a 70-ish point of Cadian Guard Infantry with a Lascannon and Plasma Gun cost: -$29 base kit -$39.50 for the heavy weapon teams box -$25 for the Command Squad box to get a Plasma Gun Sooo $93 to make one squad? You may be able to stretch it to two squads if you pick up the $10 box of 5 Snap Fit Cadians... But $103 for two squads that comes to 140 of 2,000 points? AoS has fairly decent value if you buy the recent kits, as you don't need to worry about where to source the weapon options from, yoi just need to make sure your model options aren't on the chopping block. 40k kits have some decent value as barebones squads, as long as you don't want their options with them. And the reason GW is more popular is that it has been around longer, so had less competition when starting up allowing them to have more time to create a larger and more loyal fanbase. The Black Library novels worked to immerse people into the fiction, the 40k based games like the Dawn of War and Space Marine series, and the prevalence of the one man GW stores across the globe. I can tell you now that it isn't the price that makes 40k more popular, it is GW's marketing and longevity in the hobby, because almost every 40k player I know is constantly complaining about the price of the models. And the Inquisimunda Facebook group? Sooo, your example of 40k having more conversion opportunities is people playing the side/dead GW games? Have you honestly looked into people doing Warmachine conversions either? Every single one of my Khador 'jacks have been extensively converted, along with many of my Cryx models, my Greylord Forgeseers, and my Satyxis Blood Priestess has been converted using Jhureen Hecatha's upper body, the weapon from a Blood Priestess, and the lower body of the Satyxis Blood Witch leader. There are also many threads across the web of people doing Warmachine conversions, however most 40k conversions I have seen, have been to avoid the very high price costs of running the weapon options people want in their squads. PP has close to 5,000 parts available to order to use in conversions, why are you not making use of it? I love converting, and knowing my models won't cease to exist after extensive conversion makes me more willing to spend money on them. Plus, conversions shouldn't be a necessity to play your army, it should be something you do for fun to make your army "your dudes".
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Feb 10, 2019 20:32:49 GMT
I brought up GW for several reasons: - they have the biggest mini game on the market yet have a bad reputation regarding their prices, however this hasn't stopped them from dominating the competition - since the launch of 8th Ed 40k they've seen a massive resurgence - in turn PP has...issues and is shedding players and doesn't seem to be attracting or retaining new players If you can put your personal prejudices with GW aside for a few minutes and look at this objectively it's very clear as to why WMH look less attractive to people as a financial investment. I've not bought a PP model in nearly two years because I just don't think they're worth what PP is charging, whereas (if I hadn't been buying a load of board games this last year) I would be happily buying GW models instead because I feel like I actually get some decent value for my money.
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 10, 2019 20:40:35 GMT
You brought it up in that point which did not state anything about pricing. You talked about focus and the PG, and only mildly (and inaccurately) referenced list size without mentioning cost.
And for every WMH player at a tournament, there are probably 50 players who don't know there are other local casual players who would like to play with them because the Steamrollers drove them out.
I brought it up because the cost of entry is linked to the communities attitude. PGs didn't just run tournaments, they organised intro evenings, growth leagues and alternative formats which meant that even if you were new and only had a 25pts list you would still have opportunities to play. The large price of entry to even play a game is a symptom of the communities attitudes. We seem to agree on this point and I'm saying price is an issue that is linked. I've dropped out of playing BECAUSE I'm a casual player driven out by the theme format and competitiveness and that is primarily due to the fact that the cost of modifying my armies to fit themes (that I don't really want to play in the first place) is prohibitive. If given the choice of spending €100 on a second identicle, monopose unit of Iron Fangs and solos (and still not meet the theme list) or €100 of various AdMech units I can use straight away I know which I'd prefer.
The problem is that you didn't reference any cost at all, entry or otherwise. You only talked about focus, the PG, and list size.
And again, it is your meta which really defines the cost of entry, PP is only ancillary to that because they set the MSRP, same as GW. If your meta is locked on 75 pt Steamroller, that is no different than running 2000 pt ATC for 40K for some of my local players. Oddly enough, not so long ago, a 2000 pt ATC for a Space Marine force would have been far far beyond the base points than you considered for a 75 pt Steamroller because of that wonderful Gladius Detachment bonus for free Transports which doubled the kit cost for Tacticals (thank goodness that is gone, but one of the reasons Themes is a "PP not reading the room" seen in Mk3).
That the Steamrollers seem to have done their best to drive out anyone else is not in argument. The argument is that the casuals for 40K and AoS have done FAR more in maintaining their meta than the WMH players have. It's still not easy, especially if a big event like this weekend's LVO is coming up and the tournament players are all in their fever (and to this, I do not discriminate any game because I have seen both Warhammers and Warmachine do this).
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Feb 10, 2019 20:44:48 GMT
I brought up GW for several reasons: - they have the biggest mini game on the market yet have a bad reputation regarding their prices, however this hasn't stopped them from dominating the competition - since the launch of 8th Ed 40k they've seen a massive resurgence - in turn PP has...issues and is shedding players and doesn't seem to be attracting or retaining new players If you can put your personal prejudices with GW aside for a few minutes and look at this objectively it's very clear as to why WMH look less attractive to people as a financial investment. I've not bought a PP model in nearly two years because I just don't think they're worth what PP is charging, whereas (if I hadn't been buying a load of board games this last year) I would be happily buying GW models instead because I feel like I actually get some decent value for my money. You see, I am experiencing the opposite effect over here. The recent trends of Codex creep in 8th edition has had my group bleeding players, as they don't see it worth their money to try and keep up. Whereas Warmachine/Hordes didn't exist in the area of Texas I moved to... It is now easier to get games of Warmachine/Hordes, Infinity, and X-Wing than a game of 40k. The release of the Genestealers book has had yet more people I know throw in the towel with 40k. Yes, GW is dominating the competition, but see my points about their longevity in the hobby, and better marketing. That is like saying Corvus Belli isn't successful, as there are more people playing GW games than Infinity or Aristea... Yet Infinity now dominates my old meta in New Hampshire, to the point of quite a few 40k only stores mainly supporting Infinity. And Corvus Belli is in fact a successful company. We are both using fairly subjective "evidence", so let's just agree to disagree on this. I don't think GW is worth what they are asking over here in the States, and you do not think PP is worth what they are asking where you are.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Feb 10, 2019 21:02:50 GMT
I brought it up because the cost of entry is linked to the communities attitude. PGs didn't just run tournaments, they organised intro evenings, growth leagues and alternative formats which meant that even if you were new and only had a 25pts list you would still have opportunities to play. The large price of entry to even play a game is a symptom of the communities attitudes. We seem to agree on this point and I'm saying price is an issue that is linked. I've dropped out of playing BECAUSE I'm a casual player driven out by the theme format and competitiveness and that is primarily due to the fact that the cost of modifying my armies to fit themes (that I don't really want to play in the first place) is prohibitive. If given the choice of spending €100 on a second identicle, monopose unit of Iron Fangs and solos (and still not meet the theme list) or €100 of various AdMech units I can use straight away I know which I'd prefer.
The problem is that you didn't reference any cost at all, entry or otherwise. You only talked about focus, the PG, and list size.
And again, it is your meta which really defines the cost of entry, PP is only ancillary to that because they set the MSRP, same as GW. If your meta is locked on 75 pt Steamroller, that is no different than running 2000 pt ATC for 40K for some of my local players. Oddly enough, not so long ago, a 2000 pt ATC for a Space Marine force would have been far far beyond the base points than you considered for a 75 pt Steamroller because of that wonderful Gladius Detachment bonus for free Transports which doubled the kit cost for Tacticals (thank goodness that is gone, but one of the reasons Themes is a "PP not reading the room" seen in Mk3).
That the Steamrollers seem to have done their best to drive out anyone else is not in argument. The argument is that the casuals for 40K and AoS have done FAR more in maintaining their meta than the WMH players have. It's still not easy, especially if a big event like this weekend's LVO is coming up and the tournament players are all in their fever (and to this, I do not discriminate any game because I have seen both Warhammers and Warmachine do this).
I didn't reference a cost because how much something is worth is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think virtual space ship in EVE online is worth $50,000 but some people do.
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 10, 2019 21:23:22 GMT
The problem is that you didn't reference any cost at all, entry or otherwise. You only talked about focus, the PG, and list size.
And again, it is your meta which really defines the cost of entry, PP is only ancillary to that because they set the MSRP, same as GW. If your meta is locked on 75 pt Steamroller, that is no different than running 2000 pt ATC for 40K for some of my local players. Oddly enough, not so long ago, a 2000 pt ATC for a Space Marine force would have been far far beyond the base points than you considered for a 75 pt Steamroller because of that wonderful Gladius Detachment bonus for free Transports which doubled the kit cost for Tacticals (thank goodness that is gone, but one of the reasons Themes is a "PP not reading the room" seen in Mk3).
That the Steamrollers seem to have done their best to drive out anyone else is not in argument. The argument is that the casuals for 40K and AoS have done FAR more in maintaining their meta than the WMH players have. It's still not easy, especially if a big event like this weekend's LVO is coming up and the tournament players are all in their fever (and to this, I do not discriminate any game because I have seen both Warhammers and Warmachine do this).
I didn't reference a cost because how much something is worth is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think virtual space ship in EVE online is worth $50,000 but some people do. Yet you brought it up for "cost of entry" without addressing "cost"?
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Feb 10, 2019 21:55:56 GMT
I didn't reference a cost because how much something is worth is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think virtual space ship in EVE online is worth $50,000 but some people do. Yet you brought it up for "cost of entry" without addressing "cost"? Because we're all aware of how much it costs to make a 75pts WMH army and what would it accomplish really? It would just reduce the thread to bickering over cherry picked examples.
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 10, 2019 23:37:52 GMT
Yet you brought it up for "cost of entry" without addressing "cost"? Because we're all aware of how much it costs to make a 75pts WMH army and what would it accomplish really? It would just reduce the thread to bickering over cherry picked examples. Yet, you were cherry picking examples by using the 75pm WMH army...
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mrtuna
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by mrtuna on Feb 11, 2019 0:30:29 GMT
I claim this entire argument is moot.
Warma could half all MSRPs tomorrow. More players would not come.
GW could double priced tomorrow. I doubt that many players would leave.
In the big picture, war gaming is a time hungry not a cost hungry game for many of its players (like me)
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