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Post by mcdermott on Feb 6, 2019 17:14:48 GMT
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pmark
Demo Gamer
Posts: 17
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Post by pmark on Feb 6, 2019 22:50:13 GMT
For me price is the main issue afecting the growth of the game, not CiD or power creep or any other issues. The battleboxes are still a good entry point however the way that the game is going with themes means that in order to have different themes you not only need x of each model ( double chosen or rotwings fir example) but these cant be used anywhere else without incurring in a point handicap. This increases costs immenselly..where you could get by with one unit of iron fangs and another of winter guard now you need 2 of each. On top of that the premium price on models (new behemoth, gethoryx) and units makes it daunting for a new player to pick up the game without going to the second hand market. I'm not going to neccesarily talk price of systems, but i have a rant in me about the dogganm battleboxes
Honestly i think battleboxes are one of the worst miniature game entry points that i am aware of. Which is certainly a bold claim, but let me explain why:
battlebox size games are actually pretty miserable affairs. i've played multiple battlebox introductory games and also in multiple journeyman leagues. While battleboxes are good at introducing someone to the rules in a simple way, they are very bad at introducing someone to the gameplay of warmachine and why people like it. You get basically none of the actual interest and depth of the game, what you get is a silly dance where your heavy tries to one round their heavy and if it does you win.
That doesn't even delve into the balance problems, some battleboxes are absolutely brutal to face. My legion friend has told me that the Khador box vs the Legion box is a truly miserable experience for the legion box. its 2 heavies vs 2 lights and a fake heavy. Then there's further problems laid on top of Theme-machine. In some cases, theme-machine and the journeyman league conflict massively - the skorne box locks itself out of Masters of War just by existing because the cyclops raider makes it illegal. This kind of stuff is not intuitive for a newbie at all.
Then let's talk quality. I have heard bad things about the models. The templates are an actual joke. They are paper cutouts. Like it's not that hard to include some nice cardboard templates that will be more resiliant than a little bit of paper. The missions to teach the player are dry and boring. the map that comes with it is also some absolutely cheap papery thing. Now you might be wondering why i'm banging on about the quality - i'll get to that soon.
Then as you mention, your lists get no overlap as you expand. you can't just take "generically good" models and apply them to multiple lists.
To quickly summarise everything up until this point:
- Battlebox size games are miserable and do not demo the real "spirit" of warmachine
- Balance is very questionable between boxes, Journeyman leagues are confusing and fall apart quickly
- The quality of the things included in the box is not up to par
Now, let's compare it to the competition shall we? (this is where it get's really bad)
I'm going to single out two games in particular that i'm familiar with that have a very good new player experience. Guild ball and Infinity.
First off let's talk guild ball:
The guild ball introductory experience is the Kick off! box. In it you have two full teams, captain, mascot, and 4 players each. It's the full experience right from the start with a quick start manual to teach you teach you the game.
Those teams are well balanced against each other. you get a full set of cardboard templates for measuring, you even get cardboard health dials for each individual player.
you get a beautiful double sided board game style pitch that can be configured for a 2x3 experience or the full 3x3 and some cardboard 2d terrain themed around the teams you get.
This is something a single player can buy, or a pair of players can split and be very happy with, it gives them everything they need to play the game with zero other purchases. Future expansions let the player get enough players to have a draft and to bring in the gameplans, but the essence of the game is captured. Not only that, but it looks great! the models barrelling down the pitch at each other is awesome
Secondly: lets talk about Infinity
The Infinity operation boxes are pretty amazing. They come with a mat (paper, like the battlebox) but then they come with 7 models to each side of metal miniatures with great detail. they also come with a full set of 3d terrain and buildings so you can actually create quite a cinematic, vertical battleground for the troops to skirmish in. These terrain are very elegantly designed to even fit your old empty boxes inside them to make them more sturdy.
These operation boxes go a step further and offer expansion boxes later with another 3 very high quality models for each side that bring you up towards a standard army size. These are designed to work with the existing models very well, whereas if you were to try to plug a battlebox into a theme box for warmachine you would get... mixed results at best.
So despite getting a smaller force than makes up a standard army, you get the full experience. You get cool models skirmishing in 3d terrain and scaling rooftops. I am sorry, the battleboxes cannot even come close to the cinematic experience the operation boxes offer
Even if we disregard how great these experiences are and just compare to 40k or age of sigmar, the Start Collecting! boxes sell at a large discount from retail price of the models inside them, have great quality, and make up a playable small force where you have multiple elements of an army from vehicles to giant monsters (the Trygon is in the tyranids box... seriously its nuts) to standard troop choices.
So to reiterate all of this, i completely agree price in WMH is a big problem, but i think just as big or bigger is how terrible the new player experience is. I think many players have lost sight of this because they are not new players, they are experience veterans with big collections so none of that matters to them. But new blood is desperately needed for a game to prosper. When you combine the price problem with the fact you can't even offer them an attractive entry point, why bother? at least Games Workshop offers a deeply discounted entry point before any price gouging begins.
Battleboxes need to be just chucked out and something more closely resembling Start Collecting! boxes that would be a functional 25pts army sold at a discount would be a huge step forwards in the new player experience because at least 25pt games can have a basic scenario and multiple model types and some synergies. Or just damnit go all out and make the experience deluxe like Infinity and Guild ball get.
Battleboxes are a terrible entry point
/rant
As someone, who just bought an Operation: Coldfront box with a friend, as my comeback to Infinity, I can attest to that. I was baffled how good an entry product that is. Also, the addded magazine-style booklet is eye catching, has all the necessary profiles and does a quite good job at introducing the game's rules to a new player via scenarios.
Equally high-end 2 player starters for PP would be great.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Feb 7, 2019 7:31:33 GMT
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 7, 2019 8:48:51 GMT
Of all those things you list those fyreslayers (and that entire range tbh) is priced offensively, but the others? Those draconian guards (ugly as they might be) resemble ridden monsters more then they do cavalry and the same is true for that 3 for 60 box. How can you compare that to normal infantry or cavalry? I guess the angel thingies are pretty borderline. Those boxes go to show that GW has products which are pretty bloody expensive, something I never denied, but I ask you: look at the new goblin range or last years(?) Undead and one might find fault with the supersquig but I dare you to find stuff that's obviously above par with anything but the superold pyg bushwhackers. Which at the time were priced rediculously compared to anything but the aforementioned witchelves. Since you like linking stuff, let's do some linking of my own: elementgames.co.uk/games-workshop/new-warhammer-age-of-sigmar/forces-of-death/start-collecting-skeleton-hordeA garg, infantry and cavalry. Add 10% for the US effect and this box would cost you 85 bucks. A comparable collection from PP would cost you 210 or something in the US? Well over 300 outside the US elementgames.co.uk/games-workshop/new-warhammer-age-of-sigmar/forces-of-order-/start-collecting-fyreslayersThe rediculously priced fireslayer. 92 bucks with you, again something comparable would set you back 130 at PP? elementgames.co.uk/games-workshop/new-warhammer-age-of-sigmar/forces-of-order-/start-collecting-seraphonLizardmen, same story. It's not as if PP doesn't have boxes that do this... for a month and then it's back to seperate and overpriced boxes. Which again, GW has as well. It's just that ALL of PPs stuff is overpriced ones the deals run out, xept maybe certain solos.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Feb 7, 2019 9:49:50 GMT
Looking at Cavalry though, the answer is different. 6 Knights of Minas Tirith : £15.30 5 Stormlances : £53.96 That's quite the difference! Those Knights of Minas Tirith make up roughly 11% of an Army in Lord of the Rings. The Storm Lances roughly 25% of a Warmachine list. But the difference in price between the two isn't actually huge when you have to buy two units of Knights of Minas Tirith to each box of Stormlances....Overall I don't think the costs are too high for PPs stuff, but it can seem like they're getting pricier at face value, but actually not so bad when you dig in to it... Your math on cavalry doesn't make much sense to me. With the prices you provide one can get 21 LOTR knights for 5 Storm Lances. Even if we take into account the scale difference (LOTR is scaled more realistically and less bulky as a result) the difference is HUGE.
The "% of an army" doesn't hold water for me and leads to absurd conclusions. First of all there's no way you can get as much hobby time (time painting, options playing) out of 5 models as you do out of 20. (That's unless you count pinning, filing and greenstuffing everything for hours as the fun part, in which case PP is great value ) It's just simply 4 times more toys to play with!
Also the "% of an army" is totally abstract, the average army size is an arbitrary value which can be pulled out of a hat by designers any time at will. For example, if your logic made any sense, the best way for PP to sell the product for twice the price is to say, that from now on SR is 50pts, one list only. Then, following your logic, you will not only fail to see that their product is more expensive, you will actually observe that it has become cheaper! Doesn't really make much sense, does it?
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Post by jonwill on Feb 7, 2019 10:55:57 GMT
Looking at Cavalry though, the answer is different. 6 Knights of Minas Tirith : £15.30 5 Stormlances : £53.96 That's quite the difference! Those Knights of Minas Tirith make up roughly 11% of an Army in Lord of the Rings. The Storm Lances roughly 25% of a Warmachine list. But the difference in price between the two isn't actually huge when you have to buy two units of Knights of Minas Tirith to each box of Stormlances....Overall I don't think the costs are too high for PPs stuff, but it can seem like they're getting pricier at face value, but actually not so bad when you dig in to it... Your math on cavalry doesn't make much sense to me. With the prices you provide one can get 21 LOTR knights for 5 Storm Lances. Even if we take into account the scale difference (LOTR is scaled more realistically and less bulky as a result) the difference is HUGE.
The "% of an army" doesn't hold water for me and leads to absurd conclusions. First of all there's no way you can get as much hobby time (time painting, options playing) out of 5 models as you do out of 20. (That's unless you count pinning, filing and greenstuffing everything for hours as the fun part, in which case PP is great value ) It's just simply 4 times more toys to play with!
Also the "% of an army" is totally abstract, the average army size is an arbitrary value which can be pulled out of a hat by designers any time at will. For example, if your logic made any sense, the best way for PP to sell the product for twice the price is to say, that from now on SR is 50pts, one list only. Then, following your logic, you will not only fail to see that their product is more expensive, you will actually observe that it has become cheaper! Doesn't really make much sense, does it?
I see your point, and I will admit to some very sloppy maths. You're right, the Knights seem much better value than Stormlances (let's not even compare them to Chosen of Everblight!). The newer stuff is pricing me out of more than one WMH purchase a month right now, and that's upsetting as I have three factions. I was trying to rationalise it and make it feel like PP is still reasonable value. I suppose I was also trying to illustrate that buy in cost is more than just amount per Pound (or Dollar) and maybe we need to look at more things than just price per single model. If I only need one box of Stormlances to play WMH and 8 to 10 boxes of the Knights of Minas Tirith, it seems daft to say WMH is more expensive because it's more expensive for one box. However, perhaps amount of models per box should also come into it. Because 5 models for ~£50 feels much worse than 6 for ~£16, especially when they're similar sized. I don't think it's fair to look at it purely from a "stuff-in-box per Pound" perspective, I think you need to consider how much it costs to make a playable amount of things. Now say that PP can make the SR standard 50 points, and it doesn't make them cheaper, it makes them better value because now they're taking up roughly half a list. So you'll need fewer models in total. So they aren't cheaper, but the overall buy-in is cheaper because I only need one box of Stormlances. The reverse of this coin is that Warmachine is pretty cemented in 75 points Steamrollers right now, whereas it feels like other systems have more flexible point levels at events. On the whole I think what you want from the hobby will decide whether you thing PPs models are too pricey or not. I personally feel that they're getting more and more expensive and I'm less willing to buy when I can get the Lord of the Rings models cheaper and they're of comparable quality to some of PPs earlier stuff. I very much enjoy painting my minis so it definitely seems more valuable to get more minis per pound currently, because that's more painting practice, and more stuff that looks nice when I'm done. But if I were looking from a tournament point of view. If I need say one box of Stormlances versus 3/4 boxes of Knights, suddenly Warmachine seems a lot more reasonably priced. Essentially it boils down to pay what you're willing to pay. Right now I'm not willing to pay £45 for Trencher Long Gunners when I can get more reasonably priced models for a different system. However I don't feel the price disparity is too high, but it is creeping up and I don't have the funds to keep up with it currently, which is upsetting. But I didn't feel like it was too bad when I started three years ago. Now it's creeping up I'm a little less excited when I hear about new things coming out because I'm worried it's going to be pricey. In summary, Warmachine feels like it's getting more expensive, other systems feel more attractive due to buy in costs.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Feb 7, 2019 20:04:34 GMT
well, what the hell...
WMH is a great game. But the models suck ass. PP has very few get started deals, which only exist for a short time, then they're gone. GW at least has a start collecting box for almost every faction, and most of them are a pretty solid value. MOST. not all. With WMH it feels like you are paying for the game first and the models second. With GW if feels like you are paying for the models first and the game second, though to be completely honest, I don't think that adage is AS true for GW anymore. both AoS and 40k are shaping up to be quite good.
I'm really hoping that this new CEO can bring a bit of focus on new player integration, and box deals, real box deals, with newer sculpts and better looking models made out of better material will show up and kind of kickstart that for PP. Maybe a new recruitment campaign to follow it?
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Feb 7, 2019 21:18:31 GMT
well, what the hell... WMH is a great game. But the models suck ass. PP has very few get started deals, which only exist for a short time, then they're gone. GW at least has a start collecting box for almost every faction, and most of them are a pretty solid value. MOST. not all. With WMH it feels like you are paying for the game first and the models second. With GW if feels like you are paying for the models first and the game second, though to be completely honest, I don't think that adage is AS true for GW anymore. both AoS and 40k are shaping up to be quite good. I'm really hoping that this new CEO can bring a bit of focus on new player integration, and box deals, real box deals, with newer sculpts and better looking models made out of better material will show up and kind of kickstart that for PP. Maybe a new recruitment campaign to follow it? 40k would be good... If I didn't need to spend the amount I could buy a small army for just to play it: -Big Rulebook $60 -Codex $45-50 -Chapter Approved $25 -(potentially an Index $25) And not to mention the mess of FAQs scattered everywhere. To play my Guard I need: -Rulebook -Rulebook FAQ -Index -Index FAQ -Codex -Codex FAQ -The Big FAQ -Chapter Approved -Chapter Approved FAQ And say I want 1 model from a different army: -Their Codex -Their Codex FAQ If I want to run a relic on that model, you also need: -Death Guard FAQ, as this is the one that states you can use the additional Relic Stratagem from a different Codex. Please. Tell me again how well 40k is shaping up, when you have vast swathes of models and entire factions, that will never see the table because of how trash they are, making each Codex really just a small selection of useful models. So while there may be some cheaper prices for GW models, you pay for it in rules in the era of soup, where you spend: $60 rulebook $45-50 Codex $25 Chapter Approved $45-50 for you Soup Codex $25 Index, if you need it So roughly $165-$195 just to play the game, and the prices for the newer GW models are NOT any cheaper than PP models. So while there is savings in buying older GW sculpts, you still are not saving any money in game quality or rules price.
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Post by hocestbellum on Feb 7, 2019 23:09:59 GMT
Actually, that's one enormous plus point in PP's favour; all the rules are free. I can't believe I'd forgotten that!
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Feb 7, 2019 23:12:54 GMT
Actually, that's one enormous plus point in PP's favour; all the rules are free. I can't believe I'd forgotten that! Not only are they free, they are updated for free as well, to keep the amount of documents you need to reference down to a minumum. The only things I need to play Warmachine/Hordes are: -Rulebook PDF -Downloaded cards/War Room -Current Steamroller packet if playing a Steamroller game.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Feb 8, 2019 8:19:16 GMT
well, what the hell... WMH is a great game. But the models suck ass. PP has very few get started deals, which only exist for a short time, then they're gone. GW at least has a start collecting box for almost every faction, and most of them are a pretty solid value. MOST. not all. With WMH it feels like you are paying for the game first and the models second. With GW if feels like you are paying for the models first and the game second, though to be completely honest, I don't think that adage is AS true for GW anymore. both AoS and 40k are shaping up to be quite good. I'm really hoping that this new CEO can bring a bit of focus on new player integration, and box deals, real box deals, with newer sculpts and better looking models made out of better material will show up and kind of kickstart that for PP. Maybe a new recruitment campaign to follow it? 40k would be good... If I didn't need to spend the amount I could buy a small army for just to play it: -Big Rulebook $60 -Codex $45-50 -Chapter Approved $25 -(potentially an Index $25) And not to mention the mess of FAQs scattered everywhere. To play my Guard I need: -Rulebook -Rulebook FAQ -Index -Index FAQ -Codex -Codex FAQ -The Big FAQ -Chapter Approved -Chapter Approved FAQ And say I want 1 model from a different army: -Their Codex -Their Codex FAQ If I want to run a relic on that model, you also need: -Death Guard FAQ, as this is the one that states you can use the additional Relic Stratagem from a different Codex. Please. Tell me again how well 40k is shaping up, when you have vast swathes of models and entire factions, that will never see the table because of how trash they are, making each Codex really just a small selection of useful models. So while there may be some cheaper prices for GW models, you pay for it in rules in the era of soup, where you spend: $60 rulebook $45-50 Codex $25 Chapter Approved $45-50 for you Soup Codex $25 Index, if you need it So roughly $165-$195 just to play the game, and the prices for the newer GW models are NOT any cheaper than PP models. So while there is savings in buying older GW sculpts, you still are not saving any money in game quality or rules price. I capitalized "as" for a reason, but ok, if you need to be a zealot, I'll bite. I mean, I buy the books because I want them, but everyone I know just uses battlescribe. i also havent seen anyone carry around a massive binder of the 14,000 documents you're saying you need, and we have plenty of players in the surrounding area, so I'm not sure there is as real need for that because of battlescribe. It's also worth noting that the codices I buy are 40.00 MSRP and easily purchased on discount. Also, why would you need the indexes? Also, in your description, I guess war room is suddenly free? As for the game, and how its shaping up, and never seeing vast swathes of models, I could EASILY make that argument for WMH. In fact, I think it's fair to say that both game systems have shit that isnt "seeing play" right now. In terms of models being cheaper, I know for cost to cost, i built my Legions of Nagash army, with books, and options, at 2k points for AoS, for the same cost (actually less than) as my AK army. Having the requirement of one list vs two is also a significant change up. Both product lines have their shit products, and their overpriced models, no doubt, but you're really stretching that argument out. In fact, once the LVO is done, I think itll be interesting to compare the costs of the #1-3 place AoS, GW, and PP lists
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Post by tapecrawler on Feb 8, 2019 8:46:19 GMT
I might grumble a bit about paying a lot for models but the thing that really sticks in my craw is buying a ten man unit with 3 troop sculpts and a leader model. That’s just laziness and to charge a premium price for that is ridiculous.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Feb 8, 2019 9:55:47 GMT
I capitalized "as" for a reason, but ok, if you need to be a zealot, I'll bite. I mean, I buy the books because I want them, but everyone I know just uses battlescribe. i also havent seen anyone carry around a massive binder of the 14,000 documents you're saying you need, and we have plenty of players in the surrounding area, so I'm not sure there is as real need for that because of battlescribe. It's also worth noting that the codices I buy are 40.00 MSRP and easily purchased on discount. Also, why would you need the indexes? Also, in your description, I guess war room is suddenly free? As for the game, and how its shaping up, and never seeing vast swathes of models, I could EASILY make that argument for WMH. In fact, I think it's fair to say that both game systems have shit that isnt "seeing play" right now. In terms of models being cheaper, I know for cost to cost, i built my Legions of Nagash army, with books, and options, at 2k points for AoS, for the same cost (actually less than) as my AK army. Having the requirement of one list vs two is also a significant change up. Both product lines have their shit products, and their overpriced models, no doubt, but you're really stretching that argument out. In fact, once the LVO is done, I think itll be interesting to compare the costs of the #1-3 place AoS, GW, and PP lists I play 40k as well, havw since 3rd edition (not nearly as much nowadays though). However, I find having to turn to free third party apps as a way around the book/rules mess of 40k a bit lame. Sure, War Room isn't free, but every card is available to print for free, and that is what I have done. I printed off every card I will need, and they are current and up to date, unlike every 40k Codex two weeks after it is released, where it is hit with an FAQ that changes the content, and other paid publications that come out throughout the year. I generally don't use discounts when coming up with the costs, as both Warmachine/Hordes and 40k products can be had for various levels of discounts anywhere online. Because I am imagining being a person going into a store, and them trying to start up the game. For those well versed in 8th edition 40k, using Battlescribe, it may not be that bad for casual games, but say that you and your buddy were picking up the game because it looked cool. With how scattered the rules are, if you are playing straight out of the $60 rulebook... You aren't even playing proper 40k anymore, as a large chunk of the rulebook and Codex is now wrong. How would you know that you can use a stratagem from another book to get one of their Relics? You don't know unless you download and read the Death Guard FAQ. So you have to buy other publications like Chapter Approved, or reference other FAQs. That isn't an issue with PP, as all of the rules are free on their website, so no money wasted on outdated rules. I also mentioned Indexes, because veteran players of 40k WILL have models that didn't make it into the Codex due to the "no kit no rules" policy of GW in 8th edition (like Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack, Rough Riders, Griphon Heavy Mortars, Chaplain/Librarian on Bike, Calgar in Artificer Armour, Rifleman Dreadnoughts, Las/plas Razorback, ect.), or that player is running any one of the Forgeworld options. And stretching the argument out of 40k models not seeing play? Please, the entirety of my Blood Angels Codex is really just 3 units, a Captain with Jump Pack, Lemartes, and Death Company. The rest of the Codex is trash. Marine vehicles are worthless due to how fragile and easy to lock down they are, Tac Squads (lol), Scouts almost have a place... But like everything else in the Codex... Guard do it cheaper. Grey Knights? Hah, utter trash, the entire army. That really isn't even debatable, as MAYYYYYBE Grandmasters in Nemesis Dreadknights might see play... But again, Guard do it cheaper, especially when souped with Knights and a few Captain Slams. Ad Mech?... Guard do it cheaper, and better. And again, when souped with Knights or other single models cherry picked from another Codex. You are also talking about a Legions of Nagash army, I will admit those models are pretty studly, but you are one of the lucky ones that has had a newer Battletome and models come out. Looking at The Empire (Free Guild), any non-Witch or sea Aelf... And you start to see massive problems, where non Battletome armies go into games with a huge disadvantage of not having good Allegiance abilities or updated rules/points. I sold off all of my older High Elves, because their translation into AoS is/was AWFUL, and the confusing fracture of them into a dozen mini factions made them almost unplayable. Especially now when legacy warscrolls are quickly being left behind by new releases. AoS also has the advantage of all the options a squad can take being free, or their options making them a different squad type like Warmachine, keeping their monerary cost down. However, AoS has ALREADY had an edition change, making people have to purchase yet another rulebook. GW has no problems killing off models, or entire lines of models (unlike PP), and that bugs me, as it makes an expensive hobby even more expensive when your models are useless. I am still using dirt old metal Winter Guard, something that cannot be said of any other 40k army I use (except my Tallarn, because screw it, they are too awesome not to keep and tabletop capability be damned), because with how much each special weapon's usefullness changes from edition to edition in 40k... You will be rebuying models to keep up in all but the most casual games. And those models aren't cheap. Guard Infantry are a solid value at $29 for 10 dudes... But it doesn't include the heavy weapons they can take, so you need to add another $39.50 to be able to rock that mortar or missile launcher (since the heavy weapons only come in packs of 3 now), and they also do not include plasma or melta guns... So those need to be sourced from the Command Squad boxes. If you are ballsy enough to run a Tac Squad or two, you only get enough parts to make a single 5 man Combi-Plas/Plasma squad (the only.worthwhile way to run them), so you either need a second 10 man Tac Squad box to make another 5 man double plasma squad, or are eBaying bits at $5+ for a second Combi-plasma and a second plasma gun. Devastator squads are also another expensive train wreck, as you get nowhere near enough options to make a 4 Lascannon, 4 missile launcher, or 4 heavy bolter squad, so again buying multiple boxes or eBaying bits for a single 5 man squad. I have close to $300 in bits for my Blood Angels just to try and make them keep up with 8th edition, I could have nearly bought a new Warmachine army/theme for that. Yeah, PP has some duds... But with the introduction of the CID system, I am seeing a far larger variety of models being played than most 40k armies, as again, with soup, you really just see repetitions of the upper tier of models in every Codex, unless you have the most casual of casual metas. The same can be said about PP models in their metas, with people still having a blast running Infernal Machines and pre-CID Wolves of Winter. I will agree with you that Themes and the two list format have been a sore point with me in Mk.III though, as it made getting into full 75 point games/tournaments quite a bit more expensive for new players... But it is VERY nice to know that a model you buy won't suddenly be removed from the game the next edition when you have to also rebuy all of your books as well, comtinuing to add to the cost of playing the game. edit. However, I am truly interested to see the MSRP price comparison of the top lists for each game at LVO, along with the cost of the rules to play the game. More than willing to help you out with that.
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Feb 8, 2019 10:23:38 GMT
I might grumble a bit about paying a lot for models but the thing that really sticks in my craw is buying a ten man unit with 3 troop sculpts and a leader model. That’s just laziness and to charge a premium price for that is ridiculous. This... I will totally agree on. A few more poses for each unit would not be difficult in all reality. 5 unique sculpts, with a few repeating, plus the leader would be quite nice.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Feb 10, 2019 12:04:28 GMT
The 40k rules are free as well. Here: www.games-workshop.com/en-IE/Battle-Primer-2017-ENGSo I don't feel like writing a big long post as I'm mobile-posting so I'll summarize. - Perception of value is a thing. GW kits tend to have loads of extra bits and recently have been clearly designed to encourage kit bashing. For example AdMech Skitarii, Genestealer Cult Acolytes and Militarum Tempestus Scions are all compatible with each other. PP models are monopose or have only 2 or 3 sculpts per unit for the most part. You can repose some of the jacks but it takes some work to do anything really interesting. - GW don't discourage kitbashing or conversion which adds to the value of having a lot of spare bits in their kits. I managed to repair the broken off hatch from a Leman Russ by sticking a man in the hatch, adding some AdMech bits and now I have a new tank commander. - GW do not focus on the competitive side of the game, they cultivate playing games within a social circle. This means imbalances and keeping up with rules is only an issue if you play against strangers and don't know if you'll be playing That Guy at the FLGS. Unless your friend is That Guy. Or you are. Most Warhammer players play with friends who will be less insistent on keeping everything up to date or will share their rulebooks and will be less competitive. Keeping up with the tournament meta is not the norm in most Warhammer circles because people lean towards casual play more than competitive. - WMHs current focus on theme is pushing up the cost of entry. The Grymkin beast theme is a great example as (last I checked) the 5 gremlin swarm bases that get put in that list do not contribute the points of the army meaning you need to make up the points buying models that do. This is a problem with free models i themes across the board. - Again on the subject of perception of value, those 5 gremlin swarms are all identical and cannot be model repped, 3 of the gremlin bases cannot be used in amy other lists at all. (They're FA2 outside theme if I remember). This is the case for most solos and CAs across the game. Even if you buy the two $35 primaris lieutenants at least you can play them in any list you want. - The focus on tournament level competitive play and the ending of the Press Ganger programme means that most WMH groups only play 75pts Steamroller games which has the knock on effect of barring people from easily finding games until they have a full army. Again because of themes a full list is more like 100pts when you account for "free" warjacks, solos and CAs.
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