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Post by elladan52 on Feb 4, 2019 21:00:22 GMT
Instead of just whining I decided to also do something about it: please discuss the price differences between PP and board games, GW, videogames, other miniatures games, and whatever else you want in this thread. Then we can sticky it at the top and we can put this old chestnut to bed.
Cool? Cool.
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Post by mcdermott on Feb 4, 2019 21:17:13 GMT
cool,
there is next to no price difference between PP and GW in the US. There is next to no price difference between PP and buying a new game system
the price differential between PP and games like infinity and guildball is rooted in # of models.
GW's games like kill team provide a better small scale entry into their system than Company of Iron.
Board games are a poor thing to compare to Tabletop minis games and will always be cheaper, if thats the big aspect that moves you, stick with them TT games are always going to be too expensive for you.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Feb 4, 2019 21:18:55 GMT
Also, how much of your collection did you buy second-hand as opposed to retail NIB? Privateer doesn't make any money from that, but when it's so much cheaper, they've almost priced themselves out of their own market.
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Post by michael on Feb 4, 2019 21:22:07 GMT
It turns out that the “own a reasonable 2-monster army” buy-in for MonPoc 1 and MonPoc 2 is effectively identical. That is quite interesting considering the games are separated by 10 years of inflation.
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Post by slaughtersun on Feb 5, 2019 9:03:54 GMT
For me price is the main issue afecting the growth of the game, not CiD or power creep or any other issues.
The battleboxes are still a good entry point however the way that the game is going with themes means that in order to have different themes you not only need x of each model ( double chosen or rotwings fir example) but these cant be used anywhere else without incurring in a point handicap.
This increases costs immenselly..where you could get by with one unit of iron fangs and another of winter guard now you need 2 of each.
On top of that the premium price on models (new behemoth, gethoryx) and units makes it daunting for a new player to pick up the game without going to the second hand market.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Feb 5, 2019 9:56:15 GMT
In RSA PP toys are almost double the price model-for-model of GW.
Now that I'm in the UK, the comparison is even worse. PP has definite pricing problems around here, and it's a big detractor when trying to get new players. In my experience price is unquestionably the biggest barrier to growing the hobby, although I absolutely take MsDermot's point that it is not the case in the USA.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Feb 5, 2019 10:22:55 GMT
I think PP and Gw are very close in price per model.
In 8th Edition they were at 4€ per model in their new kits and that killed the System. Used to be 2,50€ then 3€ for Infantry. Big models, Dragons etc. used to be 50€. Now with age of Sigmar, you pay 45€ for 10 shiny Fire Slayer dudes. 3 Troll size models also get to that price. Big models (new) are close to or above 100€. I can get huge Base PP models for that price too. Characters are 20€ or 30€ for Primaris rip-off. PP also has this price for newer Trolls and Man-OWars. Just random examples. My take is: Warhammer used to be much cheaper per Model and is steadily becoming more expensive. Warhammer used to require more Miniatures. Now that you need less their prices are awfully close (check out their new stuff).
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Post by jonwill on Feb 5, 2019 11:38:00 GMT
I have recently been branching out into other game systems after feeling a bit of burn out with Warmachine. I'm based in the UK so UK based GW is naturally going to be cheaper than US based PP.
I've picked up a lot of Lord of the Rings models. and box to box there is a bit of a discrepancy between pricing.
24 Warriors of Minas Tirith : £21.50 (From UK based retailer Element Games) 10 Trencher Infantry : £33.26 (same source)
Percentage wise they make up different amounts of tournament lists so going a bit deeper.
Now the Warriors of Minas Tirith make up less of a whole force than Trenchers. Or do they? Those 24 Warriors of Minas Tirith will make up roughly 20% of a force in Lord of the Rings. Those Trencher Infantry will make up roughly the same 20% in a warmachine game. But a difference in scale and quality makes up the difference I'd say, so they're probably roughly on par.
Looking at Cavalry though, the answer is different.
6 Knights of Minas Tirith : £15.30 5 Stormlances : £53.96
That's quite the difference! Those Knights of Minas Tirith make up roughly 11% of an Army in Lord of the Rings. The Storm Lances roughly 25% of a Warmachine list. But the difference in price between the two isn't actually huge when you have to buy two units of Knights of Minas Tirith to each box of Stormlances.
But then the newer items aren't actually more pricey than the old ones. Trencher Long Gunners (including the UA) for example £44.96 compared to the £33.26 + £8.96 for the Trencher Infantry and seperate UA that's roughly the same cost. So really it feels like the newer stuff is just more consolidated rather than more expensive, but the increased price makes it feel more expensive.
I do feel like BAHI was bad for Europe but good for the US mind you, the customs hit makes it a bit poor value to buy BAHI items here in the UK unless you can band together with friends (I did this with the mystery boxes).
Overall I don't think the costs are too high for PPs stuff, but it can seem like they're getting pricier at face value, but actually not so bad when you dig in to it...
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Feb 5, 2019 12:22:10 GMT
The Lord of the Rings Miniatures are not the best comparison tbh. They were made at a price point of about 20€ back in the day to lure fans of the movies to the tabletop. These kits have not the gw quality and detail that you are used to. Also newer kits from LOTR are more expensive, Minas tirith is in the range of "older miniatures" actually. Hobbit models got much more expensive. If you want anything more than just your sta dard infantry, it will also become more expensive.
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Post by challenger on Feb 5, 2019 12:23:25 GMT
For me price is the main issue afecting the growth of the game, not CiD or power creep or any other issues. The battleboxes are still a good entry point however the way that the game is going with themes means that in order to have different themes you not only need x of each model ( double chosen or rotwings fir example) but these cant be used anywhere else without incurring in a point handicap. This increases costs immenselly..where you could get by with one unit of iron fangs and another of winter guard now you need 2 of each. On top of that the premium price on models (new behemoth, gethoryx) and units makes it daunting for a new player to pick up the game without going to the second hand market. I'm not going to neccesarily talk price of systems, but i have a rant in me about the dogganm battleboxes
Honestly i think battleboxes are one of the worst miniature game entry points that i am aware of. Which is certainly a bold claim, but let me explain why:
battlebox size games are actually pretty miserable affairs. i've played multiple battlebox introductory games and also in multiple journeyman leagues. While battleboxes are good at introducing someone to the rules in a simple way, they are very bad at introducing someone to the gameplay of warmachine and why people like it. You get basically none of the actual interest and depth of the game, what you get is a silly dance where your heavy tries to one round their heavy and if it does you win.
That doesn't even delve into the balance problems, some battleboxes are absolutely brutal to face. My legion friend has told me that the Khador box vs the Legion box is a truly miserable experience for the legion box. its 2 heavies vs 2 lights and a fake heavy. Then there's further problems laid on top of Theme-machine. In some cases, theme-machine and the journeyman league conflict massively - the skorne box locks itself out of Masters of War just by existing because the cyclops raider makes it illegal. This kind of stuff is not intuitive for a newbie at all.
Then let's talk quality. I have heard bad things about the models. The templates are an actual joke. They are paper cutouts. Like it's not that hard to include some nice cardboard templates that will be more resiliant than a little bit of paper. The missions to teach the player are dry and boring. the map that comes with it is also some absolutely cheap papery thing. Now you might be wondering why i'm banging on about the quality - i'll get to that soon.
Then as you mention, your lists get no overlap as you expand. you can't just take "generically good" models and apply them to multiple lists.
To quickly summarise everything up until this point:
- Battlebox size games are miserable and do not demo the real "spirit" of warmachine
- Balance is very questionable between boxes, Journeyman leagues are confusing and fall apart quickly
- The quality of the things included in the box is not up to par
Now, let's compare it to the competition shall we? (this is where it get's really bad)
I'm going to single out two games in particular that i'm familiar with that have a very good new player experience. Guild ball and Infinity.
First off let's talk guild ball:
The guild ball introductory experience is the Kick off! box. In it you have two full teams, captain, mascot, and 4 players each. It's the full experience right from the start with a quick start manual to teach you teach you the game.
Those teams are well balanced against each other. you get a full set of cardboard templates for measuring, you even get cardboard health dials for each individual player.
you get a beautiful double sided board game style pitch that can be configured for a 2x3 experience or the full 3x3 and some cardboard 2d terrain themed around the teams you get.
This is something a single player can buy, or a pair of players can split and be very happy with, it gives them everything they need to play the game with zero other purchases. Future expansions let the player get enough players to have a draft and to bring in the gameplans, but the essence of the game is captured. Not only that, but it looks great! the models barrelling down the pitch at each other is awesome
Secondly: lets talk about Infinity
The Infinity operation boxes are pretty amazing. They come with a mat (paper, like the battlebox) but then they come with 7 models to each side of metal miniatures with great detail. they also come with a full set of 3d terrain and buildings so you can actually create quite a cinematic, vertical battleground for the troops to skirmish in. These terrain are very elegantly designed to even fit your old empty boxes inside them to make them more sturdy.
These operation boxes go a step further and offer expansion boxes later with another 3 very high quality models for each side that bring you up towards a standard army size. These are designed to work with the existing models very well, whereas if you were to try to plug a battlebox into a theme box for warmachine you would get... mixed results at best.
So despite getting a smaller force than makes up a standard army, you get the full experience. You get cool models skirmishing in 3d terrain and scaling rooftops. I am sorry, the battleboxes cannot even come close to the cinematic experience the operation boxes offer
Even if we disregard how great these experiences are and just compare to 40k or age of sigmar, the Start Collecting! boxes sell at a large discount from retail price of the models inside them, have great quality, and make up a playable small force where you have multiple elements of an army from vehicles to giant monsters (the Trygon is in the tyranids box... seriously its nuts) to standard troop choices.
So to reiterate all of this, i completely agree price in WMH is a big problem, but i think just as big or bigger is how terrible the new player experience is. I think many players have lost sight of this because they are not new players, they are experience veterans with big collections so none of that matters to them. But new blood is desperately needed for a game to prosper. When you combine the price problem with the fact you can't even offer them an attractive entry point, why bother? at least Games Workshop offers a deeply discounted entry point before any price gouging begins.
Battleboxes need to be just chucked out and something more closely resembling Start Collecting! boxes that would be a functional 25pts army sold at a discount would be a huge step forwards in the new player experience because at least 25pt games can have a basic scenario and multiple model types and some synergies. Or just damnit go all out and make the experience deluxe like Infinity and Guild ball get.
Battleboxes are a terrible entry point
/rant
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Post by slaughtersun on Feb 5, 2019 12:31:37 GMT
I've heard somewhere that a battlebox CiD was in the making but im not sure if it was real or just wishfull thinking...
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Post by hocestbellum on Feb 5, 2019 12:36:44 GMT
I've heard somewhere that a battlebox CiD was in the making but im not sure if it was real or just wishfull thinking... It was something brought up on a podcast as a talking point; "What would you change in a battlebox CID?". As far as I'm aware there's nothing official along those lines
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Feb 5, 2019 12:48:04 GMT
Taking a look at GW and PP web stores / gallery, it looks like PP would actually still be a little cheaper in the USA... problem is as a Canadian player, I almost always have to add a few dollars as no store in town will sell stuff for that price point. Where as GW, many stores will charge what is present on their online store. So... at least in Canada, it does end up being about the same (and possibly a little more expensive depending on the store) here in Canada. For instance, I have one store where they only usually charge (what I'll call) a service charge. This is usually a small percent extra onto what the models cost (a 31.99 unit might come in for around 40.00 or so), but you have to order it as very little is carried on shelf. The one store that has EVERYTHING on the shelf however charges conversions rates (usually around 1.33% of the price) + Service charge + part of shipping... well that 31.99 unit is now +50 if you wanted it sooner than 1-2 weeks (although I have waited a month for a non-pre release or new model).
As for the battle box... I've gotten 8 players into the game with them... it isn't that bad. Granted it takes time, no you can just show up and smash players and hope they come back, and yes they are only meant to learn the rules, which they do very well. Of those 8, I'd say 7 of them had never touched a war game before. Because of the battle box, I was able to get them to move models, and roll dice without feeling to intimidated by the number of models. from there we moved to 25 points (once they learned basic Focus, abilities, movement, and attacks) and then we introduced basic scenario at 50 points. We've played a lot of no theme (although themes were talked about frequently even at the battle box level) 50 point games, though 75 point games are starting to come up, and some of them are currently participating in a journeyman league. Heck one of them is even starting to go to tournaments, and is having fun doing so (with other getting excited to go to one as well). If there is anything to be said about "problems" with battle boxes I'd say a big issue is lack of guidance and interest from veteran players. They do really require someone with knowledge to teach the game... and I feel like without incentive... not many veteran players are willing to do so. As such it can be hard to get there as a new player.
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Post by copperflame on Feb 5, 2019 14:18:40 GMT
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Feb 6, 2019 0:04:57 GMT
cool, there is next to no price difference between PP and GW in the US. There is next to no price difference between PP and buying a new game system the price differential between PP and games like infinity and guildball is rooted in # of models. GW's games like kill team provide a better small scale entry into their system than Company of Iron. Board games are a poor thing to compare to Tabletop minis games and will always be cheaper, if thats the big aspect that moves you, stick with them TT games are always going to be too expensive for you. What are you on? How are these prices even remotely similar? While GW pricing is all over the place with some boxes, most cost around 30 dollars. This get's you 10 to 20 infantry models, 5 to 10 cavalry models. Sometimes they suffered from severe brainfarts and charge 60 dollars for 5 juggernauts, or 3 orc pumbariders, silly stuff like that. Like when PP charged 80 dollars for 10 trollkin, or a 100 dollars for 5 chosen, whereas in the past these types of units set you back 50 or 80 dollars respectively, sometimes less...... Which is still A LOT more then 30 dollars for the average GW unit. And it's not like those are old releases. Look at all the new night goblin stuff, it's all priced like that (little higher then 30 actually). The new stonetrolls though? 3 for 40. Good luck getting 3 heavies for that. Funfact. In europe legion raptors and northkin raiders have now passed the 100 dollar mark, chosen are 135. That's with a 10% discount (as are all of the above prices btw) That difference cannot be explained away by taxes and import. PP is expensive as f*ck, and that's all there is to it.
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