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Nephlyms
Jan 5, 2019 6:35:40 GMT
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Post by onijet01 on Jan 5, 2019 6:35:40 GMT
Is it possible to make a non character list using Light Nephlyms as your work force or are they to poor stated?
I know scorn cyclops are similarly stated but they work because of Beast Handlers, Mikada 3 incite, and/or the theme bringing minion beasts.
What would be needed to legion nephlyms to make them more usable because i seriously like their design.
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Nephlyms
Jan 5, 2019 9:51:17 GMT
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Post by Falcen on Jan 5, 2019 9:51:17 GMT
Sadly not for competetive lists. For the most part Nephilims are tool beasts. They see play in different lists but never in large numbers. The only dedicated "battle beast", the Soldier, is rarely seen at all.
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Nephlyms
Jan 5, 2019 12:56:08 GMT
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Post by onijet01 on Jan 5, 2019 12:56:08 GMT
Sadly not for competetive lists. For the most part Nephilims are tool beasts. They see play in different lists but never in large numbers. The only dedicated "battle beast", the Soldier, is rarely seen at all. Thats a shame i know a few warlocks can overtune the nephlym but it also helps heavy beasts. Haaa sad when shredders do more damage than lights
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Nephlyms
Jan 5, 2019 14:57:58 GMT
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Post by cainuslupus on Jan 5, 2019 14:57:58 GMT
Sadly not for competetive lists. For the most part Nephilims are tool beasts. They see play in different lists but never in large numbers. The only dedicated "battle beast", the Soldier, is rarely seen at all. Because it's terrible.
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Post by davycannonhound on Jan 6, 2019 0:46:10 GMT
For the soldiers at least, i think that Zuriel grabbing a Leadership ability for Soldiers would be pretty cool. I'm not sure what that ability would be, but, its an idea.
The boltthrower is pretty good in my experience, its a relatively high p+s untyped gun with a push effect and good range. Only problem is, there aren't really any casters aside from Lyllyth that can buff its gun.
The Bloodseer is actually really good. I rarely use it, but the times I have its been great. The problem is, you're probably only going to want one.
The Protector is a bit overpriced, but still does a good job. Again, though, you only need one (quite literally).
So, out of the four Nephilim, only two are actually "spammable". One just isn't worth it, the other is really only going to see spamming with Lyllyth (and maybe Eiryss, if you are playing casual games). The weak one is the Soldier, and I don't think a points reduction is the key.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Jan 6, 2019 9:11:34 GMT
It's not even the beasts themselves imo, but it's just hard to field them in a theme with the kind of synergy that make em click, childeren lack...
- Forsaken to help deal with all the fury - carniveans to (further) buff armour on seers - grievous wounds to make all those precision strikes stick - any kind of position tricks to add to the boltthrowers
So you probably want to field them in terrors under anamag, that (in a roundabout way) helps with all those issues. Abby1 and Saeryn1 can get work out of them as well I feel, stacking debuffs, Poteus is a beast in this setup. Both Thags' and abby2 can get work out of many things, including these uns. Kryssa likes hexhunters who like a seer. I wouldn't go heavy on nephs with her though.
Iv used bonegrinders as a source of grievous wounds, which did kinda work, but they are very slow. Really worked wonders against lists that have a speedadvantage, like arkadius.
I don't think they are bad bad, but hard to use and hard to support well, let alone in theme. Legion is a mess and that's very apparent when diving into nephs. Which is a shame, they are my favourite legion beasts.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Nephlyms
Jan 7, 2019 10:49:07 GMT
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Post by unded on Jan 7, 2019 10:49:07 GMT
They suffer quite badly from the crappy theme they’ve been given.
Clearly their poor stats mean you want to somehow make up by using the unyielding bonus in Children, but the limited nature of Children means they don’t have the support they need:
- bolties are very FURY intensive (3 FURY per model for animus and 2 boosts), but not a forsaken to be seen. They would synergise really well with Ravagores as well, but no such luck. - Soldiers are unimpressive melee beasts that could really use the alpha, but no access to Seraphs means no slipstream. - Saddest of all is the bloodseer. It’s defining ability is copying animi, but the three animi it really want to copy (Wraithbane, Slipstream and Spiny Growth) are all unavailable in CotD. Just bleh.
Add in the poor value-for-points of nephilim across the board and it’s hard to justify giving them anything more than niche spots in lists
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Post by onijet01 on Jan 7, 2019 12:29:08 GMT
Not to turn this into a fix thread but what would be needed either in theme or model fixes to make Nephlyms (non character) good.
My summation is.
Bolt thrower gets powerful attack (makes it more fury efficient.
Protector gains rapid healing, this would add to its roll as a durable guard for models.
Blood seer could pick up magic ability (5-6) - ice cage model hit suffers -2 def unless immune to cold. - canker frost rng10 pow10(cold) model hit suffers -2 arm unless immune to cold.
And the soilder gains flank friendly Nephlym warbeast.
The theme benifit ahhh no ideas at all.
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Nephlyms
Jan 7, 2019 14:38:21 GMT
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Jan 7, 2019 14:38:21 GMT
If they get the support they need I think they are fine as is.
Which means at a minimum a theme with our "assassin"unit I forgot the name of, with a themebenefit that gives them straight up grievous wounds, all the beasts whose animi the seer likes to copy.
Either that or the complete overhaul discussed a month or two ago, where the different nephilim gain or give certain bonusses from/to the different elf units. This would be much more fluffy and do the name 'childeren' the justice it deserves.
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gordo
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Post by gordo on Jan 7, 2019 17:40:49 GMT
I suspect that if they really want to make CotD work, it needs to meet two milestones:
1. Encourage an all Nephilim army. 2. Encourage an all Nyss army.
So I think the way to do it is to take a queue from Irregulars:
1. Theme benefit: Nyss Beast Mistresses may include light Nephilim war beasts in the battlegroup. 2. For every 30 points of Blighted Nyss and Nephilim warbeasts in the army, you get a free solo or lesser Warbeast. 3. While controlled by a friendly Beast Mistress, Nephilim war beasts gain Gang. 4. Some minor side benefit like +1 to go first or whatever
Same restrictions on Battle group and unit selection as exist today.
Want to run an all Nyss force? No problem!
Want to run a Nephilim force? No problem! You now have the rules and fury management to do so without flailing ineptly.
Want to emphasize the synergy and intelligence of Nephilim as hybrids of both Nyss and Blighted dragonflesh golems? That works too!
The list still has severe restrictions in terms of model selection so it doesn't fall into the trap that Irregulars set up for itself.
After that, you just need to make Nyss Archers not stink and Nyss artillery to not stink and you have yourself a theme where everything is functional and you'll get tons of models that never see daylight hitting the table again.
But instead, they'll make yet another Cryx theme.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Jan 7, 2019 21:32:15 GMT
I like how this approach to the beastmistress solves the forsaken problem in a fluffy way. It doesn't solve the other issues this theme has though; seers, soldiers, zuriel and swordmen (ie warlord) still pay for abilities that won't come into play.
But it should be part of the theme I agree.
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gordo
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Nephlyms
Jan 8, 2019 13:54:48 GMT
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Post by gordo on Jan 8, 2019 13:54:48 GMT
I like how this approach to the beastmistress solves the forsaken problem in a fluffy way. It doesn't solve the other issues this theme has though; seers, soldiers, zuriel and swordmen (ie warlord) still pay for abilities that won't come into play. But it should be part of the theme I agree. ? What abilities do they have that won't come into play? I don't think I know what you mean.
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whydak
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Post by whydak on Jan 8, 2019 14:24:31 GMT
I like how this approach to the beastmistress solves the forsaken problem in a fluffy way. It doesn't solve the other issues this theme has though; seers, soldiers, zuriel and swordmen (ie warlord) still pay for abilities that won't come into play. But it should be part of the theme I agree. ? What abilities do they have that won't come into play? I don't think I know what you mean. Sounds like precission strike and Bloodseer limited acess to other animi. I would disagree with precission strike being worthless. It's better with grevious wounds, sure but it still can work. Jacks are not so easy to heal, mechanics can die and don't have unlimited movement. You can also scalpel aspects of beasts with big efficiency which forces enemy to spend resourcess or prevent shaking shadow bind/ knockdown ect.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Jan 8, 2019 17:23:23 GMT
? What abilities do they have that won't come into play? I don't think I know what you mean. Sounds like precission strike and Bloodseer limited acess to other animi. I would disagree with precission strike being worthless. It's better with grevious wounds, sure but it still can work. Jacks are not so easy to heal, mechanics can die and don't have unlimited movement. You can also scalpel aspects of beasts with big efficiency which forces enemy to spend resourcess or prevent shaking shadow bind/ knockdown ect. Yes those are what I was thinking about. It's true that widespread precision strike will give your opponent headaches, but it's just it's completely out of your hands how they will deal with it outside of proteus, searyn and bonegrinders. Sometimes you just want to carve out a system because that's what you want, and for that to be sure you need grievous wounds. Showering an opponent in status effects is fun though, and very doable in this theme. And the seer... it makes me so sad one of his key abilities is garbage in it's own theme, whereas it's great outside it.
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gordo
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Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 8, 2019 20:38:14 GMT
Ok, I see your points. I think Grievous Wounds will become more accessible if they ever do it, but even if not I still think it wouldn't be nearly as necessary where all of your Nephilim have Gang and you can run Weaponmaster swordsmen.
As for the Bloodseer, that's a bit more of a headache. Honestly I find good ability to steal the animii of other friendly beasts largely pointless in any theme. It's ok with an Archangel or Seraph or Naga, sometimes with a Carni, but usually the points in those lists are so tight because of the cost of Legion beasts you aren't really using Bloodseers much anyway. I always thought their best ability was Telemetry, as it turns on so many offensive infantry spells like Ice Cage, Puppet Master, etc.
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