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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 5, 2019 15:32:15 GMT
I don't think that works: Beast-09 would become inert as S0 is a Battlegroup controller, not a marshal. You could reactivate him as you say, but from pg59 of the rules:
"The reactivated warjack is no longer inert, but it must forfeit its Combat Action the turn it is reactivated."
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jan 5, 2019 15:36:08 GMT
I don't think that works: Beast-09 would become inert as S0 is a Battlegroup controller, not a marshal. You could reactivate him as you say, but from pg59 of the rules: "The reactivated warjack is no longer inert, but it must forfeit its Combat Action the turn it is reactivated." Damn you and your correct citation of the rules. So much for Plan B.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jan 5, 2019 16:14:28 GMT
Oooh, I love this game! OK, how about this: Sorscha0 casts Boundless. Beast already has Repo from Andy2. Beast charges up, does stuff, repos forwards. Sorscha dies to an unfortunately friendly fire incident. Andy somehow makes it to base contact with Beast (seriously, he is way too far forwards right now!), takes over, casts Open Fire: Beast gets to make another attack.
Wow, that's... the single most useless piece of jank I've ever come up with. I now have an overwhelming desire to use it in an actual game...
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Post by tjhairball on Jan 5, 2019 17:20:58 GMT
Okay, I posted in the adjunct thread noting what seemed exciting to me about taking the adjunct with Old Witch 1... I'd like to float ideas about what the Sorscha0 pairings that really synergize up are.
- Threat extenders that are NOT Boundless Charge stack nicely with Boundless Charge. Since most warcasters have a threat extender, and you can't Sorscha/Sorscha, this doesn't vary the impact much:
- 100% passive, no resource investment from warcaster to stack nasty threat ranges:
- Field Marshal: Apparition (Old Witch 1)
- (limited by proc) Conferred Rage (Butcher 2)
- (limited by proc) Scrapjack bond (Old Witch 1)
- Upkeeps - i.e., can be a very minor investment in warcaster FOC on the key turn:
- Quicken (Strakov2)
- (warjack) Superiority (Irusk1, Strakov1)
- (warjack) Assail (Vlad2)
- (warjack) Infernal Machine (Vlad3)
- Other spells:
- (warjack) Energizer (Butcher3, Irusk2)
- (warjack) Mobility (Harkevich)
- (warriors) Dash (Vlad3)
- Feat only: Vlad1, Kozlov
- No threat extenders: Zerkova
- Diminishing returns: Boundless Charge warcasters (Vlad1, Butcher1)
- Fog of War provides concealment. This helps hang-back-squishy casters, especially Old Witch, and doesn't help some others very much.
- Old Witch 1 and Scrapjack both have Prowl, this is A+ synergy.
- Irusk and Zerkova are both squishy. B+
- Front-line types - Butcher, Vlad, Karchev - may not want to be in the same place as Sorscha0.
- Old Witch 2 is not concealable.
- She has immunity to cold and can bring in Beast-09, who is also immune to cold. Minor synergies:
- Both versions of Zerkova have cold damage
- Zerkova1's Freezing Mist.
- Greylord Outriders
- What to bring?
- Beast-09 seems like an obvious choice. Has Shield Guard with Sorscha, and is unavailable in theme except with Sorscha.
- Rager - cheap, has Shield Guard, logical low-cost model that doesn't want to range far away from important targets anyway.
- Berserker / Rager - cheap, DEF 11 gets more out of concealment than DEF 10.
- Colossals. High investment to stick on a squishy model, but it usually spends a lot of time in the back shooting. Can benefit strongly from being loaded up with focus, is hard to get past in order to get at the squishy Sorscha0 behind it.
- Synergies:
- Obvious: Winter Guard (she has that Winter Guard ability)
- Less obvious: Greylords (particularly Winter's Wind on Beast-09)
She does have a lot going on with Old Witch 1. The opportunity cost of having a warjack that doesn't get the Field Marshal: Apparition benefit inclines me towards Beast-09 or Conquest (since Conquest can't apparition anyway and Beast-09 would just be unavailable to her normally in theme).
Of the Vlads to pair up with her, Vlad3 seems like the synergy choice. He has an upkeep on a warjack to accelerate it (Infernal Machine) and cavalry models are not bad Boundless Charge targets.
Strakhov2's Quicken stands out as something that's really flexible and stacks with Boundless Charge. He could actually put it on HER warjack to send it out as a giant bullet (not a bad thing with Beast-09) or on, say, a Man-o-War Drakhun (Boundless Charge + Quicken + cavalry charge to the face is a really easy high-speed threat).
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Sorscha 0
Jan 5, 2019 18:02:44 GMT
via mobile
Post by Soul Samurai on Jan 5, 2019 18:02:44 GMT
When talking about stacking threat extenders you forgot both Andys (Andies?).
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Post by borderprince on Jan 5, 2019 18:41:54 GMT
Vlad always wants to be in the same place as Sorscha, but the Empress doesn't allow it.
Vlad1 actually quite likes Sorscha0 in the limited testing I did in WGK. He's usually fairly low on Focus after casting S&P, so concealment is another bit of help to keep him alive, and he doesn't play that far forward. Boundless Charge also helps with Focus outside of feat turn, and gives some very nice threat ranges in combination with the feat. I don't think she's essential kit with him, but certainly a nice to have.
Oh, and your diminishing returns list says Butcher1 for a Boundless Charge caster - presumably you mean Butcher2. Poor Butcher1 has no threat extender at all and desperately needs one.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jan 6, 2019 6:30:42 GMT
I've tried OW1 (running double juggernaut) with Sorscha0 (running a destroyer) in WGK and it was great. Once the adjunct is out as well I'll be all in on that combo with her for sure!
Cheers, Dave
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Post by sand20go on Jan 7, 2019 17:13:37 GMT
Okay, I posted in the adjunct thread noting what seemed exciting to me about taking the adjunct with Old Witch 1... I'd like to float ideas about what the Sorscha0 pairings that really synergize up are.
- Threat extenders that are NOT Boundless Charge stack nicely with Boundless Charge. Since most warcasters have a threat extender, and you can't Sorscha/Sorscha, this doesn't vary the impact much:
- 100% passive, no resource investment from warcaster to stack nasty threat ranges:
- Field Marshal: Apparition (Old Witch 1)
- (limited by proc) Conferred Rage (Butcher 2)
- (limited by proc) Scrapjack bond (Old Witch 1)
- Upkeeps - i.e., can be a very minor investment in warcaster FOC on the key turn:
- Quicken (Strakov2)
- (warjack) Superiority (Irusk1, Strakov1)
- (warjack) Assail (Vlad2)
- (warjack) Infernal Machine (Vlad3)
- Other spells:
- (warjack) Energizer (Butcher3, Irusk2)
- (warjack) Mobility (Harkevich)
- (warriors) Dash (Vlad3)
- Feat only: Vlad1, Kozlov
- No threat extenders: Zerkova
- Diminishing returns: Boundless Charge warcasters (Vlad1, Butcher1)
- Fog of War provides concealment. This helps hang-back-squishy casters, especially Old Witch, and doesn't help some others very much.
- Old Witch 1 and Scrapjack both have Prowl, this is A+ synergy.
- Irusk and Zerkova are both squishy. B+
- Front-line types - Butcher, Vlad, Karchev - may not want to be in the same place as Sorscha0.
- Old Witch 2 is not concealable.
- She has immunity to cold and can bring in Beast-09, who is also immune to cold. Minor synergies:
- Both versions of Zerkova have cold damage
- Zerkova1's Freezing Mist.
- Greylord Outriders
- What to bring?
- Beast-09 seems like an obvious choice. Has Shield Guard with Sorscha, and is unavailable in theme except with Sorscha.
- Rager - cheap, has Shield Guard, logical low-cost model that doesn't want to range far away from important targets anyway.
- Berserker / Rager - cheap, DEF 11 gets more out of concealment than DEF 10.
- Colossals. High investment to stick on a squishy model, but it usually spends a lot of time in the back shooting. Can benefit strongly from being loaded up with focus, is hard to get past in order to get at the squishy Sorscha0 behind it.
- Synergies:
- Obvious: Winter Guard (she has that Winter Guard ability)
- Less obvious: Greylords (particularly Winter's Wind on Beast-09)
She does have a lot going on with Old Witch 1. The opportunity cost of having a warjack that doesn't get the Field Marshal: Apparition benefit inclines me towards Beast-09 or Conquest (since Conquest can't apparition anyway and Beast-09 would just be unavailable to her normally in theme).
Of the Vlads to pair up with her, Vlad3 seems like the synergy choice. He has an upkeep on a warjack to accelerate it (Infernal Machine) and cavalry models are not bad Boundless Charge targets.
Strakhov2's Quicken stands out as something that's really flexible and stacks with Boundless Charge. He could actually put it on HER warjack to send it out as a giant bullet (not a bad thing with Beast-09) or on, say, a Man-o-War Drakhun (Boundless Charge + Quicken + cavalry charge to the face is a really easy high-speed threat).
Lets assume for a moment that she is going to be available in Jaws and WGIK and that we JUST want to think about themes (which I am not sure - see below)
People above have suggested most of the great ways to use her to speed up 2 jacks to threaten usually 12 or 13 inches - a HUGE thing for Khador as we currently usually have to accept the alpha and more and more ARM 20/34 boxes is not saving you.
But I might offer the following strange and interesting "jank"
A manhunter will threaten 14.5 through forests at POW 14 weaponmaster under vlad2 Eliminators will threaten 15.5 at pow 16 combo strike. Pow 18 if ganging.
One could EASILY see a weird and wacky (double Victors?) Vlad 2 list where you threatened to hot swap assail to have a 13 inch threat while positioning your "assassins" to go do assissin like things.
I also think it is worth testing an out of theme MoW build with her and Vlad2. Drakhuns with Boundless charge under Vlad2's feat feel....well....good ;-)
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Sorscha 0
Jan 7, 2019 17:37:00 GMT
via mobile
Post by michael on Jan 7, 2019 17:37:00 GMT
Sorscha0 is unambiguously available in Jaws and WGK. No need to assume.
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Post by sand20go on Jan 7, 2019 18:24:46 GMT
Sorscha0 is unambiguously available in Jaws and WGK. No need to assume. What I meant to say is that if unexpectedly she is allowed in one of the other three themes. Now I am not thinking that WILL happen but stranger things have occurred.
I also believe there will be opportunities to dojo stuff that might be very very good.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 8, 2019 10:47:18 GMT
I'm actually struggling to fit her into WGK lists, dojo-wise. Which jack do you put on her? A Rager is redundant in a theme with a billion Sac Pawn options, and I don't really need the extra shooting that a Destroyer would garner. You'd want to be running her in a jack-based list, but almost all casters that you're liable to run jack-heavy WGK would have decent battlegroup effects.
If I need someone to take a focus load off of my caster, Malakov seems better; Sorscha can give her jack +2 threat, free charge, pathfinder, and full focus. Malakov trades pathfinder for +2 damage, which is significant. Sorscha's advantage is that she can cast BC on other targets, too, but to do so she pretty much has to neglect her jack.
Need to get her on the table, I guess, but it seems like you'd mostly want her for increasing the threat ranges of things like Butcher. Or maybe in Jaws where you're more likely to be taking a Rager anyway so it's not really a tax.
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Post by P'tit Nico on Jan 8, 2019 12:26:54 GMT
I'm actually struggling to fit her into WGK lists, dojo-wise. Which jack do you put on her? A Rager is redundant in a theme with a billion Sac Pawn options, and I don't really need the extra shooting that a Destroyer would garner. You'd want to be running her in a jack-based list, but almost all casters that you're liable to run jack-heavy WGK would have decent battlegroup effects. If I need someone to take a focus load off of my caster, Malakov seems better; Sorscha can give her jack +2 threat, free charge, pathfinder, and full focus. Malakov trades pathfinder for +2 damage, which is significant. Sorscha's advantage is that she can cast BC on other targets, too, but to do so she pretty much has to neglect her jack. Need to get her on the table, I guess, but it seems like you'd mostly want her for increasing the threat ranges of things like Butcher. Or maybe in Jaws where you're more likely to be taking a Rager anyway so it's not really a tax. Sorscha also significantly increases the survivability of the surrounding Winter Guards.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 8, 2019 12:45:48 GMT
Yeah, but is that concealment bubble and no KD worth paying the tax of an inefficient jack choice? If you're playing wall-to-wall winterguard, like in the I2 Stalingrad lists, then her + jack is at least 12 points. That's more than an entire unit of WGI. Taking her with a Destroyer is almost as much as full rifles + rockets.
If you're playing medium-high jack numbers, you probably have some sort of battlegroup benefit that her jack is losing out on. Casters who want 4+ jacks that don't have battlegroup benefits are unusual.
I can see her being very useful for the Butchers, who love a threat boost, don't care what's in their army, and struggle with pathfinder. However, in the CID I thought she'd be a cert in any list, but that's really not the case.
I also think she probably slots into Jaws a little easier, but I don't play much Jaws.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jan 8, 2019 13:05:11 GMT
That's kind of what happens whenever I theorymachine lists and try to fit her in. If I'm putting her in a list with a good jack caster it feels like a high price to have a jack that's not getting battlegroup benefits (and probably not getting much focus most of the time if she's busy casting BC). In non-jack caster lists I just keep thinking "isn't Andy1 better?". I guess she's fine with a Rager or Destroyer since they can work (mostly) fine with only power-up focus and no buffs, if they have a place in your list anyway.
I guess she could be good with Andy 2: he likes tough models for the feat but they don't need to be in his battlegroup so there's not so much cost in putting a good jack on her, BC brings his jacks to actual dangerous threat range and he likes the free charge, he gives out Prowl which plays nice with her Fog, plus she might be a decent target for battle plans too.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jan 8, 2019 14:25:57 GMT
I like a destroyer on her in WGK because the gun is boostable.
Other option could be a devastator for something to chuck into scenario and leave there?
Cheers, Dave
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