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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 3, 2019 14:32:14 GMT
As a long time Strakhov player, the Heaven-Piercing Spear Spriggan assassination works especially well with him due to the 6" non-linearity of the move, and the MAT boost. Also, 21" is a lot further than 13!
With the Berserkers, I'm not expecting them to actually tear up the opponent. I'm looking more at leveraging the fact that they're cheaper than most factions' light warjacks, and yet hit hard enough to require dealing with.
In that regard it doesn't matter if I actually destroy things or not. If I can tie up a greater amount of points than I invest, I'm coming out on top. Imagine if I charge some Shocktroopers. Am I going to slaughter the unit? Nah. I might kill one, maybe? But that's a 20 point unit being stopped dead by an 8 point model. They'll take two turns to kill it without a charge or a damage boost. Sending in a heavy? Not as easy as it seems; a fully loaded Ironclad only has a 44% chance to kill it, and you've set up a favourable piece trade for me.
Berserkers couldn't really be used for this before because of the Marauder; for one more point you got +2 MAT, +2 ARM, +3 boxes, and some great extra rules. No brainer. But the difference is larger now, and the berserker got cheaper and better.
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Post by blindfury on Jan 3, 2019 18:48:41 GMT
Are all of you building toward an alpha strike or a counter punch? If alpha, that it feels like you're locked into Vlad I or Strak I for the extended charge beyond the base +2 of bouncless charge that most casters get innately or can borrow from Sorscha 0. The problem I see with countering, is that anything with a threat range less than 12 inches leaves you on the side of zones where many threats can hit your heavies but you can't reciprocate. Just curious what more experienced players thought process looks like.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 3, 2019 21:14:13 GMT
It's far better to be well-rounded. If you rely too much on one thing you'll leave yourself vulnerable to counters. Threat ranges are important, sure, but my Doom Reavers having a 17" threat under Strakhov is useless if my opponent has a 'no charge' feat, or a covering fire template.
Of the two I lean in a more counter-punch direction, simply because our high durability and large number of damage boosts make that much easier. But you should never skimp on threat projection, be that extra movement or simply decent ranged options.
It's also worth remembering, too, that you can alpha strike with casters like Zerkova and Sorscha1; they can't hit you first if they can't charge or shoot.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jan 4, 2019 3:04:31 GMT
I want to try this after Sorscha 0 drops. It’s been a long time since I rocked Jaws. I think 13” non-linear threat ranges from Karchev give him a very reasonable chance to alpha, and his counterpunch hits like a truck. The list feels particularly well tuned for scenario play with 4 units and 3 solos.
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Marauder - PC: 11 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Juggernaut - PC: 13
Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Sorscha 0 - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0
Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8
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Post by Mr.Human on Jan 7, 2019 10:21:02 GMT
I want to try this after Sorscha 0 drops. It’s been a long time since I rocked Jaws. I think 13” non-linear threat ranges from Karchev give him a very reasonable chance to alpha, and his counterpunch hits like a truck. The list feels particularly well tuned for scenario play with 4 units and 3 solos. Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Marauder - PC: 11 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Sorscha 0 - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Looks ok, but you still have the some problems Karchev always has. You will still suffer against massed infantry, scenarios (few models, S0 helps here though) and control casters like Magnus2. And although Karchev is durable, he isn't impossibly hard to kill, even easier without a shield guard or dog, like in that list. I play Karchev a lot, and I've played similar lists. S0 helps, no doubt, and kinda brings Karchevs old feat back (you can use the extra focus from the free charge to boost the charge attack). But consider dropping one jack and changing another to a Rager, to get a more well rounded list and keeping some focus on Karchev so he can be further up field and maybe scooring some points even, while still controlling his now far reaching jacks. I rearly ever get more then 2-3 jacks up the field with RtW anyway, and giving them 1-2 focus each is Karchevs (and S0) max. I've tested lists with up to 8-9 jacks with Karchev, and found the best results have been achieved with 5 or sojacks, I still think that is the case, even with S0 the cheaper jacks don't cut it with Karchev imo. He can still fully support 5 jacks and 1 can be on S0. I'd even consider having a Forge Seer with a destroyer and only 4 jacks with Karchev. you got a few trade pieces and he can be the 2-3rd wave himself. The Bulldoz and extra 1 inch rng on the Spriggan also gives some more flexibility and unpredictability to your moves. Maybe something like this? War Room Army Khador - Karchev Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 74 / 75 Army 0 / 40 Specialist Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - War Dog - PC: 3 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) - Spriggan - PC: 17 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Sorscha 0 - PC: 0 - Rager - PC: 10 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 THEME: Jaws of the Wolf --- GENERATED : 01/07/2019 12:26:28 BUILD ID : 2069.18-10-06 Not so big changes, and honestly, I've found his worst enemy to be the scenarios, because of the predictability of Khador jacks and your list above has strong game against a lot. I'm just showing the scissors to your paper above...all heil the messiah S0, we will have our due!
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jan 7, 2019 10:57:43 GMT
A couple kodiaks helps a lot against infantry for Karchev. Plus maybe one destroyer (on Sorscha0) as well. Plus the destroyer is great for triggering Road to War.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 7, 2019 12:17:06 GMT
Looks ok, but you still have the some problems Karchev always has. You will still suffer against massed infantry, scenarios (few models, S0 helps here though) and control casters like Magnus2. And although Karchev is durable, he isn't impossibly hard to kill, even easier without a shield guard or dog, like in that list. I play Karchev a lot, and I've played similar lists. I don't play a lot of Karchev, but the answer to most of those problems would seem to be running him in WGK instead of Jaws? You lose out on some free points, but gain much better infantry clearing, mass 'shield guard', and advanced moves for most if not all of your jacks. And you'd still get S0 if you wanted, as well as having her count towards free points and synergising with your army a little. A basic list I've been considering was this: Khador Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand [Karchev 1] Karchev the Terrible [+30] - Juggernaut [13] - Juggernaut [13] - Kodiak [13] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [4] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Four advanced moves, 32 shield guards and RtW triggers, decent amount of sprays and blasts. It's in no way optimal; it's more based on models I have painted! I think it might be light on scoring solos, so perhaps dropping a couple of rockets for the Marksman would be good.
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Post by Mr.Human on Jan 7, 2019 13:14:55 GMT
Yeah, that list looks solid. I played him in WG theme in the beginning of mk3, but had only the bare minimum of WG, for screening, shield guard and scoring/denial. It worked ok. I used devastators as well, for anti-infantry. After the Forge Seer tough, I've found him with a Destroyer together with the widowmakers to do the job quite well and not eating up Karchevs focus so I dropped the devastator(s).
That list has enough others stuff that's still makes an impact and help out in the scenarios, leaving Karchev to just fuel a few jacks and camping the rest.
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