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Post by Charistoph on Dec 23, 2018 3:06:00 GMT
Well, with so much information being put on on social media, there is little reason to go to their actual website. The forums are more for hobby posting (though, there is a Facebook page for that), Rules questions, and sometimes army lists (again, often put forth on faction Facebook pages).
In other words, with little reason to actually GO to those sites, it is only natural that traffic decrease over time.
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Post by LoS Jaden on Dec 23, 2018 6:20:56 GMT
IMO, PP has a great product in warmachine, and it's gotten that way largely because they've been listening to the top 2% of players, the people who actually know balance well enough, and care about the health of the game enough, to contribute to it's development. Listening to casual players about balance is a terrible idea (and I'm not going to rehash that particular debate), and the game is not oriented towards a casual audience, both because the community is not casual friendly, and because the rules are very all-or-nothing, and do not lend themselves to fun casual play. Most of the 'casual' games I've seen end up being more of a stomp than any competitive game, because the core game rules encourage and allow this (and before anyone says anything, the game has always been like this). I also strongly disagree about the CID leadipowercreep. with a few notable exceptions (one in particular I'll get to later), the things coming out of CID have not been significantly stronger than the strongest things Pre-CID. Factions have gotten stronger through CID, but largely because they were underperforming pre-CID. The thing is, no one is arguing that casual players who don't have the same mastery of the system should be in charge of deciding what is balanced and what isn't. That's a strawman. However, it may be a good idea to take casual play into account at times. For example, if the argument is that something is fair and balanced because if you bring a very specific tech you can actually have a game, or that all you need to do is have absolutely perfect positioning to not automatically lose, then that's something that should be considered, because odds are that on a casual game night, you're not going to bring the one or two casters that can actually have a game. For example, Ghost Fleet. This was a list which was miserable to play into because you didn't even have a chance to really interact with unless you built a list specifically to counter it. It was a huge NPE, unless you brought some sort of very specific tech (okay, I need a list that has mass ranged RFP and magic weapons and can deal with a wraith engine and doesn't randomly lose to assassination or melt to a 7 point armour swing). It may have been okay competitively because you could always bring a really janky list that is hyper-focused on that one matchup and have a game, assuming you don't lose list chicken, but if we're playing on a tuesday game night and someone brings a list like that, it's going to be a situation where it's not even a game. It feels like lately, a lot of stuff has been released into the wild which is very meta-bending, and it has become very difficult for casual players to keep up. Also, perhaps part of the issue is that the community shouldn't be "not casual friendly"? I don't know the answer to this, but I do know the answer isn't to either ignore casual players and hobbyists at best, or be actively hostile to them at worst? I mean, your post is part of the problem as a lot of the wording in it basically implies to casual players that the game isn't for them. At some point, it's hard to grow the game and grow PP's bottom line by telling people that the game isn't for them and making them feel unwelcome. I've been getting back into the game lately, but I know personally, my enthusiasm for the game took a severe dip this year and my hobby purchases shifted from PP to GW after things like having competitive players swear at me and insist that I change my terrain setup (on a table they weren't even playing on) because I lined up multiple trench templates to make it look like a realistic trench, or being told that I'm not playing a "real game" because I'm playing a scenario from a narrative league instead of a steamroller scenario, or literally being told to Firetruck off and go play GW games instead. I mean, at some point, if people keep telling casual players and hobbyists that this game isn't for them, then they might start thinking that the game isn't for them and go play something else. While I am sorry to hear that you've had negative reactions, you also go out and create content in a way that is seemingly deliberate in its controversial nature. While I don't support the idea that people should be extremely negative towards content creators they disagree with (I've had my own fair share of that on the creator side of things), I have noticed that you really like to hammer on the hobby side of things with slogans like "fighting the horde of unpainted grey models" and other somewhat incendiary comments in both your blog post and just website in general. Food for thought, if nothing else. I really enjoy some of your painting content and you have a beautiful Khador army - keep that up for sure!
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Dec 23, 2018 7:23:25 GMT
There is no power creep, except possibly in terms of huge based/BAHI models. Models are released, the community loses their shit for a few months over how OP it is, and then the meta adjusts. Once in awhile, something actually absurd is released (or more likely, a new release unlocks something that was absurd before) and it needs to be nerfed, but that's not power creep. Players whined about Grymkin when they were released...then they adapted. Players whined about Kolgrimma when she was released...then they adapted. Players whined about Anamag when she was released...then they adapted. Players are currently whining about Tharn...they will adapt. Some things have been released that may be actively bad for the game (the proliferation of anti-healing tech, anti-place tech, and arcane vortex everywhere is a profoundly uninteractive trend that incentivizes people to just smash models together in the centre of the table), but that's not the same thing as power creep hmm...what helped push grymkin down? Haley 3 trenchers. what helped handle kolgrimma? anamag + the current hosing of cloud walls whats currently eating anamag? tharn, right? obviously this isn't all-inclusive, there are a lot of other CID's to fit into this puzzle about what eats what, and what beats what, but really, this is a pretty stable trend. this is power creep. one thing is made. its really good. next thing is better, cause something has to keep the previous thing in check, so on and so forth. this is power creep. there is also this misconception that power creep is a constant one way escalator, and that isn't true, there will be newer releases that don't add up, there will be some stuff that just isn't as good as the previous stuff, just because of the design or concept of the model, but that doesn't mean that power creep isn't, in a general trend, consistently going up. It really is. Just look at the absurd power levels of the recent stuff released in teh last year compared to the year before that. We are actually at a point where Kolgrimma is considered mediocre. I don't think this is a coincidence that these things went into CID almost all sequentially to each other (save for maybe trenchers, but I still think that grymkin went in before trenchers did, but I am free to totally admit that isn't the case.) in either direction, to say there is no power creep whatsoever is just patently dishonest. Additionally, the idea that the top 2% know dick-all about balancing a game is laughable at best. They are no more qualified by any means, to tell anyone what makes a good game vs what doesn't. They will act in their best interests alone, and have no more incentive to ensure a fair game for all than any other player playing the game to win an event. Especially if they got their models painted and are now on a winning streak with said new hotness. These top 2% players are far more interested in the win and winning with what they have access to and what they are playing than they are making sure that khador was brought up to par before AK was CID'd (another great example of creeping power scale). In fact, the only times you will see the top players uniting against something is when its universally kicking their ass, and even then, i see them move on and play that new sweet hotness. how the hell would you ever assume they know anything about balancing a game? In fact, i could even argue at the core of the problem CID shouldnt have ever been givn to gamers at large. It hsould have been given to people who have either tested game rules before, or people who could be trained. Being good at a game doesnt make you a good designer.
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eathotlead
Junior Strategist
PP forumite since 2004
Posts: 259
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Post by eathotlead on Dec 23, 2018 21:11:45 GMT
Well, with so much information being put on on social media, there is little reason to go to their actual website. The forums are more for hobby posting (though, there is a Facebook page for that), Rules questions, and sometimes army lists (again, often put forth on faction Facebook pages). In other words, with little reason to actually GO to those sites, it is only natural that traffic decrease over time. Yep, I found the dramatically declining traffic on the PP forums unsurprising. They willfully killed them. On the other hand, the general decline in traffic to their main site was disheartening to me. I assumed that if FB was so important, the main PP site wouldn't be so negatively affected. I thought the social media focus was meant to drive traffic to PP proper. But that was an assumption by me.
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eathotlead
Junior Strategist
PP forumite since 2004
Posts: 259
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Post by eathotlead on Dec 23, 2018 21:20:42 GMT
I've heard that a number of companies are looking at their actual ".com" web site itself as becoming secondary to their social media channels. Maybe PP is no different. That is, PP's salient identity - for a particular social media user - may BE that user's favored channel. For example, PP may be perceived largely as their Instagram page by some.
As a guy who uses FB under my own identity for work, it's not easy for me to go join a Khador or Merc group with custom-created emails/ accounts, etc. just for my hobby stuff. (Or maybe I'm just old and unaware and it's actually easy to do that, keeping it all separate.) A dedicated company site and forum for my hobby interests just worked better. I may be a rarity.
It'd be interesting to see the increase in Privateer FB traffic vs. the loss in PP web site / forum traffic. Not to mention the correlation with actual sales numbers. I wonder if Will Shick, as business director, did these analyses.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 23, 2018 22:49:39 GMT
Well, with so much information being put on on social media, there is little reason to go to their actual website. The forums are more for hobby posting (though, there is a Facebook page for that), Rules questions, and sometimes army lists (again, often put forth on faction Facebook pages). In other words, with little reason to actually GO to those sites, it is only natural that traffic decrease over time. Yep, I found the dramatically declining traffic on the PP forums unsurprising. They willfully killed them. On the other hand, the general decline in traffic to their main site was disheartening to me. I assumed that if FB was so important, the main PP site wouldn't be so negatively affected. I thought the social media focus was meant to drive traffic to PP proper. But that was an assumption by me. No, PP did not kill their forums, but they did put it on simmer and life support. If you want to see who has killed their forums, look to Games Workshop. They really did kill their forums, and they have good reason to. As bad as some people THINK the WMH Faction forums were, the GW forums were even worse.
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Post by cainuslupus on Dec 23, 2018 23:04:43 GMT
There is no power creep, except possibly in terms of huge based/BAHI models. Models are released, the community loses their shit for a few months over how OP it is, and then the meta adjusts. Once in awhile, something actually absurd is released (or more likely, a new release unlocks something that was absurd before) and it needs to be nerfed, but that's not power creep. Players whined about Grymkin when they were released...then they adapted. Players whined about Kolgrimma when she was released...then they adapted. Players whined about Anamag when she was released...then they adapted. Players are currently whining about Tharn...they will adapt. Some things have been released that may be actively bad for the game (the proliferation of anti-healing tech, anti-place tech, and arcane vortex everywhere is a profoundly uninteractive trend that incentivizes people to just smash models together in the centre of the table), but that's not the same thing as power creep hmm...what helped push grymkin down? Haley 3 trenchers. what helped handle kolgrimma? anamag + the current hosing of cloud walls whats currently eating anamag? tharn, right? obviously this isn't all-inclusive, there are a lot of other CID's to fit into this puzzle about what eats what, and what beats what, but really, this is a pretty stable trend. this is power creep. one thing is made. its really good. next thing is better, cause something has to keep the previous thing in check, so on and so forth. this is power creep. there is also this misconception that power creep is a constant one way escalator, and that isn't true, there will be newer releases that don't add up, there will be some stuff that just isn't as good as the previous stuff, just because of the design or concept of the model, but that doesn't mean that power creep isn't, in a general trend, consistently going up. It really is. Just look at the absurd power levels of the recent stuff released in teh last year compared to the year before that. We are actually at a point where Kolgrimma is considered mediocre. I don't think this is a coincidence that these things went into CID almost all sequentially to each other (save for maybe trenchers, but I still think that grymkin went in before trenchers did, but I am free to totally admit that isn't the case.) in either direction, to say there is no power creep whatsoever is just patently dishonest. Additionally, the idea that the top 2% know dick-all about balancing a game is laughable at best. They are no more qualified by any means, to tell anyone what makes a good game vs what doesn't. They will act in their best interests alone, and have no more incentive to ensure a fair game for all than any other player playing the game to win an event. Especially if they got their models painted and are now on a winning streak with said new hotness. These top 2% players are far more interested in the win and winning with what they have access to and what they are playing than they are making sure that khador was brought up to par before AK was CID'd (another great example of creeping power scale). In fact, the only times you will see the top players uniting against something is when its universally kicking their ass, and even then, i see them move on and play that new sweet hotness. how the hell would you ever assume they know anything about balancing a game? In fact, i could even argue at the core of the problem CID shouldnt have ever been givn to gamers at large. It hsould have been given to people who have either tested game rules before, or people who could be trained. Being good at a game doesnt make you a good designer. I can't stress how much I agree with your observations. I hope PP make changes to CiD process before it kills the game, because the game is probably unsustainable only by "git gud, take newest CiD stuff" crowd. I might be wrong, but they seems to make all the mistakes that killed Warhammer Fantasy AND add their own, like taking piss on the fluff (because tourney players don't need it, they will play gumme bears if the rules are broken enough), killing books and magazine, antagonizing shop owners and killing their Pressganger program without any alternative. Hope personel changes and 2019 teaser (new book is comming with fluff and new units for all factions, am I getting it right?) means hard course correction, not that they're going down. What I find annoying is that during the Kraye dev talk I voiced the opinion that Stranglehold would be too good for him. However looking at where we have ended up with stuff coming out of CID, I shouldn't have bothered, Stranglehold would have been absolutely fine. I basically just denied myself a good Kraye because I thought PP would act with some restraint in future CIDs Right now you'ld be eaten alive for suggesting anything less than Mortality, because it wouldn't feel interactive enough. Funny thing, I'm not even sure if Caine2 and old Lances would be broken compared to Iona and her pals. Probably competitive enough.
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eathotlead
Junior Strategist
PP forumite since 2004
Posts: 259
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Post by eathotlead on Dec 23, 2018 23:32:26 GMT
Kill or simmer, the PP forums are like a ghost town, with tumble weeds rolling through on occasion. Even the painters/ hobbyists have a small fraction of their former audience; not even enough for me to bother. Not knowing much about GW - and looking at what cainuslupus said above (and what others have said), it does look like many of the same mistakes have been made.
I'm also hopeful, though, that the exodus of PP staff will somehow translate into that "hard course correction". One that will take some notice of the constructive suggestions like here on these boards.
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vlad
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 53
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Post by vlad on Dec 24, 2018 1:02:40 GMT
hmm...what helped push grymkin down? Haley 3 trenchers. what helped handle kolgrimma? anamag + the current hosing of cloud walls whats currently eating anamag? tharn, right? obviously this isn't all-inclusive, there are a lot of other CID's to fit into this puzzle about what eats what, and what beats what, but really, this is a pretty stable trend. this is power creep. one thing is made. its really good. next thing is better, cause something has to keep the previous thing in check, so on and so forth. this is power creep. I think we have a fundamentally different opinion on what power creep is. In WHFB and 40K power creep didn’t mean that the latest release had a good game to a popular meta list, while at the same time having it’s own weaknesses against other lists (as all the lists have good counter lists options). It meant that basically your only way to win an event was to play the latest release, i.e. VCs, Daemons, Dark Elves etc. All the “Power Creep Lists” you mention have had answers from the day they appeared, it’s just that finding those answers needed players to change how they build their lists and play them, and we all know people don’t really like to change.
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Post by slaughtersun on Dec 24, 2018 7:31:52 GMT
hmm...what helped push grymkin down? Haley 3 trenchers. what helped handle kolgrimma? anamag + the current hosing of cloud walls whats currently eating anamag? tharn, right? obviously this isn't all-inclusive, there are a lot of other CID's to fit into this puzzle about what eats what, and what beats what, but really, this is a pretty stable trend. this is power creep. one thing is made. its really good. next thing is better, cause something has to keep the previous thing in check, so on and so forth. this is power creep. I think we have a fundamentally different opinion on what power creep is. In WHFB and 40K power creep didn’t mean that the latest release had a good game to a popular meta list, while at the same time having it’s own weaknesses against other lists (as all the lists have good counter lists options). It meant that basically your only way to win an event was to play the latest release, i.e. VCs, Daemons, Dark Elves etc. All the “Power Creep Lists” you mention have had answers from the day they appeared, it’s just that finding those answers needed players to change how they build their lists and play them, and we all know people don’t really like to change. This ^ By that logic Skorne would have no answer to Primal Terrors for example and i've heard Morghul2 disagrees. Kolgrima laughs at legion in general. I could go on... Things come out of CiD and people need time to adjust. Furthermore i would add that people complaining about CiD should not blame it on PP alone but rather take a long hard look at how the community reacts in each CiD. Making demands that are over the top, sending reports that may or may not have been...lets say...not accurate to prove a point, weird interpretations of results and whatnot...all of that affects how CiD ends up and yet the blame is on PP. Things come out of CiD new and there's adapt time needed. This does not exclude that somethings are less optimal on either side of the curve (looking at you Judicator) but stop blaiming PP for everything.
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Post by snotling on Dec 24, 2018 9:01:13 GMT
Abby2 (with a mist speaker) seems to handle Granny pretty well, no feat and not very usefull clouds really hurts the old gal xD.
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Post by slaughtersun on Dec 24, 2018 9:12:31 GMT
Abby2 (with a mist speaker) seems to handle Granny pretty well, no feat and not very usefull clouds really hurts the old gal xD. And yet kolgrima laughs at PT. But according to other posts PT should crush kolgrima..
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Post by cainuslupus on Dec 24, 2018 9:22:34 GMT
Abby2 (with a mist speaker) seems to handle Granny pretty well, no feat and not very usefull clouds really hurts the old gal xD. Have you played this matchup? It's not as hunky dory as you make it, but Kolgrima is no way a problem. You don't need Mist Speaker (for what? In Abby2?), and against Abby2 clouds are painful Mat debuff. Also Champions are pain, real pain. But we digress.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 24, 2018 10:27:21 GMT
I don't think Power Creep is a useful term when it comes to discussing...well anything really. The term is pretty vague at everyone seems to have a different definition.
From my personal perspective it looks like newer casters are being given much bigger toolkits compared to legacy ones.
A caster maybe used to have 2 or 3 things they did from the kinda 'standard list' of things a caster should do. They might have a damage buff, a defense buff and their feat is an armour buff. Or they would have a threat extender, upkeep removal and their feat was a damage buff.
However if you look at someone like Anamag, she has: - damage buff - armour buff - upkeep removal - accuracy buff - threat extender - fury efficiency with Ritual Slaughter - Grievous Wounds
Now i'm not saying Anamag is unbeatable, she's not. some people even think she is not actually very good in the meta, maybe that's the case. But it just seems like PP are saying 'lets just give them everything, why not! A caster is not good anymore unless they have 5 or 6 things they do'.
I just feel like slapping a whole bunch of answers on a caster, combined with theme force's providing answers to the few things they are missing, just makes for a very homogeneous and unimaginative game in the end.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Dec 24, 2018 10:40:08 GMT
In an ideal world, balanced gameplay doesn't mean the meta has a one sided answer to an op list, it means both players have a somewhat fair fighting chance when the game begins.
Edit: the way WMH has always encouraged skews, ruins this ideal totally. Even if a balanced and interesting list has, say, few answers to a high arm warjack, it falls apart when it has to deal with 10.
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