cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Dec 20, 2018 20:52:51 GMT
Interesting stats. They match my impressions of warmahordes in scandinavia.
I dont know USA well, but the game seems to do ok there. In Europe the game seems to be tanking.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 20, 2018 21:03:22 GMT
This is the thing that's always baffled me. Why is it so hard for people that don't want to participate in CID to just ignore CID? You don't need to memorize week 1, 2 and 3. Just be aware when there's an update. Those are relatively minor and only occur once every 2 to 3 months. Because PP insist on putting overpowered nonsense in CID, and if nothing is said then it's likely to make it into the wild
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Dec 20, 2018 22:58:23 GMT
MK3 was so unbelievably poor (as a product) that the decline started when it hit. It was very frustrating for hordes players, that within 6 months no one played hordes anymore. We actually made jokes about how our tournament flyers didn't say Warmachine and hordes anymore. they just said Warmachine. It seems my local area wasn't alone in this either. Going into WMW that year, we saw the full abusable power of not only Karchev and Mad Dogs, but we also saw the rise of Una2. both of which were errated to a state where the people who purchased those lists expressed severe discontent. Those massive nerfs, followed by the first few rounds of FAQ, nerfing stuff left and right, (remember, pre CID) created a situation where no one wanted to buy anything or invest in new products because everyone was scared that whatever they purchased now, would be nerfed soon if it won. In fact, it was a common meme that when something won a big event, it would get the nerf hammer. It showed to be true for a while. when your player base is scared to buy new stuff because they are convinced you are going to nerf it into the ground, they will find something else to spend their disposable income on. Guildball was an easy plant, every pundit I know was super happy PP kept tripping over their shoe strings, it was a never-ending supply of players.
Then let's not forget about ghost fleet, and the stupidity of the first CID, the battle engines. It re-established cryx supremacy for some time to come, (some would even argue it hasn't left) and that forced some more of my players out. They just didn't want to keep laying a game that was just "more Firetrucking cryx" as they had played for the last 5 years. My players were just tired of Cryx doing shitty Cryx things, and with the wraith engine, it forced entire factions out because they had no reliable way to deal with them. Then, as if it wasn't funny enough, Cryx gets an awesome pairing to Ghost fleet in the form of the bane theme. Again, it just kept getting worse and worse. I kept losing players.
The PG program ends sometime in this time frame, I can't honestly remember, but it was right around there. The money I spent as a PG, to buy gear, clocks, mats, terrain, (buy at least 6 sets of terrain, clocks, and mats, and it gets expensive if you are the only one doing it) plus the expense to travel and promote the game is a waste. Local players are getting pretty nervous and really start looking for other games to play. GB picks up, some start migrating to 40k, or AoS, or Infinity. New players stop showing interest. Demo days dry up.
CID did eventually come around for cryx, and PP did finally nerf cryx a little, and players started to stick their heads out of the woodwork a bit. But unfortunately, CID, while well-intentioned, has some surprisingly terrible side effects. It creates a speculators market, where people don't want to buy anything now and just wait for CID. Again, a player base that doesn't spend money on your game will spend money on another game. PP doesn't seem to realize this. Cygnar goes through CID, trenches, and man, that's a shit show. I lose a cygnar player over that mess.
The troll CID comes out, its a nice pick me up, but someone notices something in my local group..."doesn't NK CID seem just stronger than trencher CID?" we all just pass it off because of the condition trolls was in as a faction. Then the next CIDs begin hitting. Grymkin, Khador, Menoth, Crucible Guard, all the way up until mercs now. They are all better than the CID's prior. Yup, power creep had crept in along the way. Compare current circle that released over WMW to the CID before hand. Along the way, I had several players complain that it felt like the flavor of the month club, and they didn't want to feel like they constantly had to buy a new mini faction to stay in the game.
So, the PG program failed, the game is handed over to the power gamers via CID, and all during this time, PP: 1. doesn't warn retailers who placed orders that their books and cards were about to become obsolete, and those stores just lose that money. 2. open BAHI. sure, I get it, it saves retailers problems of carrying different products, but it also took that money away from direct order on demand from the retailers and that left a bad mark 3. close all of their fluff and narrative outlets 4. ramp up the "get it here first" routine with early releases, undercutting local stores. 5. release a "free rider" policy, then later, offer direct sales to those stores who deal in enough volume to make it worth their while. so they want to protect the local store unless of course, you sell enough, then they just don't care.
I mean, this list goes on and on.
all this while, I keep losing players until my local gaming scene goes on life support, then it eventually dies. I am trying to resuscitate it, but I'm just slamming my head into a brick wall, and with the mystery boxes (which, PP may be fine and have no problems, but you cannot deny the mystery boxes and the Black Friday deals aren't a way to just burn through inventory) are just undercutting stores who are trying to sell the same stuff, and my local stores dont want to touch the game with a ten foot pole. Most of them have lost money with PP, and they won't go back.
Great game, maybe the best miniatures game (mechanically speaking) out there. But poor balance, lack of player agency, and absolutely terrible decisions from a parent company that seems more interested in posting memes online at work and interracting with the top 2% of convention goers than it is in dealing with difficult questions about the game and it makes for a game that has died in my and many other areas.
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Post by borderprince on Dec 21, 2018 6:08:19 GMT
This is the thing that's always baffled me. Why is it so hard for people that don't want to participate in CID to just ignore CID? You don't need to memorize week 1, 2 and 3. Just be aware when there's an update. Those are relatively minor and only occur once every 2 to 3 months. I think it is, in part, that the 2-3 months is still a fairly significant departure from the older method of major changes twice a year (1 WM book, 1 Hordes book), and the changes were of a different nature (a new caster, a handful of models per faction, with the rest remaining unchanged). 2-3 months is much less time to get to grips with a wider range of changes before the next change comes around, and then the one after that. Depending on work/other stuff, I might only get a handful of games in after one update before I need to start processing the next one. It feels much more like a cycle of constant change, rather than stop-start. I suspect PP don't worry about that, because as games developers it is how their job works, constantly trying small changes. But for those of us playing for fun, it can be draining to keep up in our limited time.
I'd also point out that sometimes the relatively small changes from CID can be harder to process than major ones. I do occasionally get my Mk2 and Mk3 model rules confused still, and the same happens with pre/post-CID. Often not the major changes, but little ones. Yes, I can go around looking them up all the time, but I'd rather I didn't have to do so (not helped by a strong preference for reading in hard copy).
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 21, 2018 7:26:10 GMT
I agree that the constant changes are part of the problem. If we could just get everything caught up and CID was only for new models being released, that would help a lot. Of course, power creep makes that impossible, because then even things that have been changed in CID will fall behind again eventually.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 21, 2018 8:22:07 GMT
I echo the sentiment that most issues arise from Mk3 being botched at the start.
They should have had a global beta (#3years, Gang and Flank working as intended), released the new steamroller and had themes from the very start to set expectations properly. Gone straight to digital cards rather than make people buy decks that become obsolete a few months later.
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Post by beardmonk on Dec 21, 2018 13:22:09 GMT
These are interesting stats. But i have a question for you, and its going to come across like im being a bit of a dick. Im not, I just don’t know how else to phrase the question. I’m not being sarcastic or confrontational. If we were in person i would buy you a drink. I ask this question with love and respect for the OP and those who have commented.
I have seen these stats now on Lormahordes, Twitter and i think FB as well. What do you hope to gain be returning to the same talking points over and over again? We all know that Mk3 was a bit of disaster, we all know the history. We are trying as community to move forward positively an in the last 6 months i have seen the general community do this. The Chain Attack initiative and the 2019 preview has helped a lot and the place is much more positive.
But then there are corners of the web and social media that almost seem like they want PP and WM/H to fail or not to recover. For the record, i don’t think the OP is in this category, but these sorts of posts feed those corners of the interweb. I too have been guilty of feeding those corners as well.
Im not saying there are not issues that need to be addressed. There 100% are. But rather than focusing on the woe of the past, let’s turn to the future and develop our communities. Lets talk about changes we can make rather than dwell on the past By being positive and ambassadors for our game and making the effort, metas can be restored (ours has) and the game is moving forward in a good way.
What is it you guys want?
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 21, 2018 14:21:34 GMT
I agree that the constant changes are part of the problem. If we could just get everything caught up and CID was only for new models being released, that would help a lot. Of course, power creep makes that impossible, because then even things that have been changed in CID will fall behind again eventually. They should have had a global beta (#3years, Gang and Flank working as intended), released the new steamroller and had themes from the very start to set expectations properly. Gone straight to digital cards rather than make people buy decks that become obsolete a few months later. Those were both factors, but GW releasing 40K's 8th Edition at roughly the same time with a significantly lighter gameplay model alongside getting rid of some of the things most hated about 7th Edition (formations, Universal Special Rules bloat, etc) while PP seemed to start encouraging some of what GW dropped really didn't help matters.
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Post by slaughtersun on Dec 21, 2018 14:38:31 GMT
These are interesting stats. But i have a question for you, and its going to come across like im being a bit of a dick. Im not, I just don’t know how else to phrase the question. I’m not being sarcastic or confrontational. If we were in person i would buy you a drink. I ask this question with love and respect for the OP and those who have commented. I have seen these stats now on Lormahordes, Twitter and i think FB as well. What do you hope to gain be returning to the same talking points over and over again? We all know that Mk3 was a bit of disaster, we all know the history. We are trying as community to move forward positively an in the last 6 months i have seen the general community do this. The Chain Attack initiative and the 2019 preview has helped a lot and the place is much more positive. But then there are corners of the web and social media that almost seem like they want PP and WM/H to fail or not to recover. For the record, i don’t think the OP is in this category, but these sorts of posts feed those corners of the interweb. I too have been guilty of feeding those corners as well. Im not saying there are not issues that need to be addressed. There 100% are. But rather than focusing on the woe of the past, let’s turn to the future and develop our communities. Lets talk about changes we can make rather than dwell on the past By being positive and ambassadors for our game and making the effort, metas can be restored (ours has) and the game is moving forward in a good way. What is it you guys want? For the record my social media presence is almost non-existant as i dont use FB, twitter etc. However i have the exact same feeling as you in that every x days a new doom and gloom post comes along. Yes there are issues with the game (tbh i still think the whole mk3 thing being a release fiasco is way overblown - i play legion so my faction was one of the most hit factions) and there will always be because no game is perfect. But its a damn good game with a damn good community (most of the times). If people focused their energy into something constructive instead of just pointing out the negative perhaps things would be much better.
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Post by sand20go on Dec 21, 2018 16:30:33 GMT
These are interesting stats. But i have a question for you, and its going to come across like im being a bit of a dick. Im not, I just don’t know how else to phrase the question. I’m not being sarcastic or confrontational. If we were in person i would buy you a drink. I ask this question with love and respect for the OP and those who have commented. I have seen these stats now on Lormahordes, Twitter and i think FB as well. What do you hope to gain be returning to the same talking points over and over again? We all know that Mk3 was a bit of disaster, we all know the history. We are trying as community to move forward positively an in the last 6 months i have seen the general community do this. The Chain Attack initiative and the 2019 preview has helped a lot and the place is much more positive. But then there are corners of the web and social media that almost seem like they want PP and WM/H to fail or not to recover. For the record, i don’t think the OP is in this category, but these sorts of posts feed those corners of the interweb. I too have been guilty of feeding those corners as well. Im not saying there are not issues that need to be addressed. There 100% are. But rather than focusing on the woe of the past, let’s turn to the future and develop our communities. Lets talk about changes we can make rather than dwell on the past By being positive and ambassadors for our game and making the effort, metas can be restored (ours has) and the game is moving forward in a good way. What is it you guys want? OK. Let me start.....These are all going to fall into the broad category of "marketing" A) Investment in the community. They are asking US to invest several hundred dollars in the game. Perhaps more. With CID changes their business model is for us to CONTINUE to invest in new models, new themes, power creep, yearly factions (you know many of us will be buying infernals in a few months). I am fine with this..... But no one asks me to go out and recruit Golfers, teach them the game, include them in my foursome, organize (for free) tournaments. etc. etc. etc. Companies in the industry contribute to the growth of the game because it is GOOD for their bottom line. Now this is different. I get that. Sport and industry vs. one little small Washington Game company. But it has been at least 2 years since PG'ers went away and not a WIFF from PP about what their plans are (I assume at this point Zilch) as to how to try to replicate SOME of what made this work. Hell, giving retailers the prize kit if they promise to do X could be even the most basic of starts. I am sure that we all could come up with a hundred of good ideas that would be cheapish marketing but helpful in the extreme. B) Bring back the forums. I think a guy or gal with a BA in marketing shut down the forums because they couldn't figure out a way to deal with moderating them without it costs them a couple of Full time employees and they didn't want "negative" things said on THEIR forums. The probablem is that peope disengaged or went elsewhere or lost interest. Lormahordes is a great resource and community but it pales in regards to traffic and posts to the old forum. Most importantly, it engaged us with THEIR product. Marketing 101 is to create an emotional connection with your customer because now you are adding emotional value to your product and making it more than just a commodity. Guess what, you can monetize that emotion (said every brand clothing executive ever) C) Find ways of moving beyond ConEnvy OR embrace it. This is a hard one. Like a lot of companies PP is stuck with either broadening the appeal or being happy with whom they are. I would really need to see sales figures to advise but I think you either find ways to market and expand the reach of your game beyond the con crowd that is salivating over each week of the CID and thinking about power lists (and which a subset travels to multiple cons a year) OR you embrace that crowd and really do find a way to embrace aspects of the e-sports phenom (interview top players, stream their games, encourage them to get sponsorships, make them a brand ambassador). D) Communicate without snark to your customers. If king for the day I would immediately shut down all interactions with staff and the players on CID. Designers (and artists) should NEVER communicate with your customers. They are WAY too invested. And so Soles comes off as dismissive, arrogent, and frankly sometimes just plain wrong. Remember, HE is asking US to spend $14.99 on a thing which cost the company probably 2 bucks and change to manufacture. Seriously, take yourself out of PP fan-don and ask yourself, if a company communicate like that with you after soliciting your input on their product design would you EVER patronize the place? I wouldn't. E) Enhance the brand. I get why page 5 needed to go away and ditto the catch phrase. But what the heck does PP even stand for. I know what GDW does. I know what FFG does. I know what Magic TG/WOC does. But PP? Mission statements and credos have value. They keep you focused. F) COmmunicate, communicate, communicate I probably don't get the game industry but I am not at all understanding the "secrecy" that PP has. If _I_ were in charge you are sure as heck I would be rolling out spoilers and teasers and everything I could about infernals. I would be communicating a TON with my retail channel about them. I would be bringing in opinion leaders to play test games and rave about them. Why in the world would I CARE if other game companies knew? All my stuff is Trade marked and the game can not be played with non PP models in 90% of settings. I also would address, head on, power creep. If that is the model than great. But I would clearly communicate about the CID schedule, the process, what the end goal is and address head on powercreep. Because as others have said, it seems READILY apparent. That will end the game right then and there as people say "Screw this, I do NOT have $1000 a year for PP to stay up on the creep and don't like getting face planted in a 2 hour game". Now I also think that the power creep is NOT a huge deal. But by communicating and SOLICITING feedback you let players know that you get that a key market advantage for the company is trying to keep a competitive balance and have all 13+ factions perform about the same so that no one feels COMPELLED to buy into the latest thing. I am SURE this isn't a full communication strategy (I am not getting paid by PP to develop one) but I know I would have one about the CID and if they have one and this is the result find a fireplace, a shredder and a new ream of paper so I can start over). This is just the start. You know what almost all of this gets at (and I am NOT a full time marketing pro but I have had to learn it to run my enterprise) - they don't seem to give power to a senior marketing professional (who even _IS_ that?) at the company. Look at the web site. Just Wilson and Sherry on the "about us". Matt Wilson is NOT a marketing guy. He, like Soles, is an "artist" - a vastly different skill set than a marketing pro. Thus to your question of what I want. I want competent marketing because a game that is dying which I have invested several thousand into models where are clearly not the best looking ones on the market makes me a sad puppy.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Dec 21, 2018 16:58:51 GMT
These are interesting stats. But i have a question for you, and its going to come across like im being a bit of a dick. Im not, I just don’t know how else to phrase the question. I’m not being sarcastic or confrontational. If we were in person i would buy you a drink. I ask this question with love and respect for the OP and those who have commented. I have seen these stats now on Lormahordes, Twitter and i think FB as well. What do you hope to gain be returning to the same talking points over and over again? We all know that Mk3 was a bit of disaster, we all know the history. We are trying as community to move forward positively an in the last 6 months i have seen the general community do this. The Chain Attack initiative and the 2019 preview has helped a lot and the place is much more positive. But then there are corners of the web and social media that almost seem like they want PP and WM/H to fail or not to recover. For the record, i don’t think the OP is in this category, but these sorts of posts feed those corners of the interweb. I too have been guilty of feeding those corners as well. Im not saying there are not issues that need to be addressed. There 100% are. But rather than focusing on the woe of the past, let’s turn to the future and develop our communities. Lets talk about changes we can make rather than dwell on the past By being positive and ambassadors for our game and making the effort, metas can be restored (ours has) and the game is moving forward in a good way. What is it you guys want? For starters, quit kissing the ass of a few select 2% top players, and get off your Firetrucking ass and start recruiting new players. The game is hemorrhaging players, and PP is doing nothing to help bring anyone in. Face it. the game is dying. Attrition is slowly killing the game. Maybe PP survive on the back of MonPoc, but WMH is dying and unless they start doing something, long-term attrition will get rid of it.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Dec 21, 2018 17:18:43 GMT
What is it you guys want? Just some transparency from PP actually. That would give answers to all the questions I have currently: - admit mk3 was **** and that they wanted help to improve the game (CID) - be honest that their economy is bad, hence the cheap sales - maybe even make their annual accounts public - explain why several people recently "quit" their job If I knew all of this I could probably relate a lot more to them, instead of speculating about the company being sold, be mad that Pagani and Shick is now gone or about the powercreep etc. And I agree with sand20go (F): The infernal spoiler realease was so lame and poorly executed. Why not hype it totally out of control and make tons of spoilers? That was fun back in mk2 with every book imo. The hype was real back then. Hype generates gossip, which I imagine leads to more interest for the game and more sales. And yes, their webpage desperately needs an update, it looks like something out of the 90's - and pale in comparison to the competitor GW has.
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Post by Charistoph on Dec 21, 2018 17:32:25 GMT
But no one asks me to go out and recruit Golfers, teach them the game, include them in my foursome, organize (for free) tournaments. etc. etc. etc. Companies in the industry contribute to the growth of the game because it is GOOD for their bottom line. Golf is really a bad example, as it is a game that you can enjoy completely on your own. Basketball or Soccer would be a better example, as they actually require interacting with other players to set up a community to play.
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Post by Lorian on Dec 21, 2018 19:56:46 GMT
I moved to an area in south germany about 2 years ago. There were no WMH-players except me. Two years later, i got like 4-6 people into the game. 4 of them also play 40k and had been frustrated about. One of my selling points has always been, that in WMH there are next to no unusual models in tge factions (except all of skorne, back then). That you can make every model to work, if you build a list around it. Sure it is not the stongest list, but one you could work with. What they dont get(and me neither) is themelists. This lazy design bonus point system is boring and kills normal list building. They then realize, they can not play their favorite model in that specific theme and the models theme is simply bad. We always inform our opponent, when someone wants to try a themeforce. Just to keep it fair. Killing the forums was a really serious blow to the community. I still dont understand who thought this to be a good idea. It was dumb. It really was. Also you should not ask why some people of PP are quiting. If they feel no need to tell us. It should be fine for you. Maybe the leaving people have their personal reasons which are simply not of our interest. Sometimes it is that easy.
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Post by tapecrawler on Dec 21, 2018 19:57:38 GMT
Wrestling and tennis would be good examples as well.
I was the one that started the CID stuff and I still think it’s a good part of it because the people I was referring to are very competitive but it’s too much of a time investment and too confusing because model rules are constantly changing. How many CID’s are there in a year: 6, 8, or 10? That’s a lot of changes to learn in a year. Most companies will have maybe two updates a year so that the player base can puzzle through the ramifications and new synergies. There was a mention earlier of something I’d forgotten about, the last edition of card boxes. I bought 3 and was saving up for a couple more. My flgs ordered around 30 mostly for players but at least one for each faction. Two or three months after this, they all become invalidated. It still makes my blood boil to think about it! There should have been somebody at PP that looked at the business plans and said this was a terrible idea.
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