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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jan 25, 2019 17:53:03 GMT
@big Fat Troll
Skarre is not so scary without feat
And noone said about 4x4 feat board :D I actually don't like the idea of removing feats, even for a newb-friendly format. They are such a huge part of the game and what makes it unique and a big deal for many casters and what really makes them tick. That, and while we're trying to ease newer players into the game, we should keep as much of the full experience as we can. Which is a reason to keep the 4x4 board. I can see arguments for a 30-inch square or even 30x48 inches if you just want it to fit on a kitchen table, but again, let's not change things if we don't need to. I'd also be concerned about attacking into the deployment zone top of Round 1 and the contortions that might be necessary to avoid that if simply keeping the breathing room that we're used to is not an option.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jan 25, 2019 18:14:10 GMT
At this point I'm tried of discussing ways to "fix the game" when the goal posts keep moving, it's just ridiculous how the solutions are skewed with perception and personal experience (me included).
When Mk3 was release: Spam Armies are killing the game! When Themepocalypse was release: Themes are Killing the game! When Books were canceled: The lack of fluff is killing the game! When CID started: CID is killing the game! Right around every WTC season: Competitive players are killing the game! This week is: The Core Rules are killing the game!
I mean people pick their number one grievance and make assumptions about fixes, in an effort to make it fit into the "What would bring more joy to me personally" Box.
Yes, I understand that either the game, or us as people, grew into a place were we are not getting joy from playing anymore, and that's fine.
I for one think that having good positioning and fundamentals, along with the considerable intellectual investment to play well are Strengths of the game, but I think the gigantic SKU count is daunting for newer players to navigate around and it should be fixed first. That's my number one grievance, and I don't know for sure if it will work or not, but it has for other games in the past with little need to shake up the core rules beyond Quality of Life tweaks.
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Post by Charistoph on Jan 25, 2019 18:32:02 GMT
Honestly, I think having that the 25 point game be a good first step from Mangled Metal/Tooth & Claw. You have options from your Battlebox. You have enough points to set up your initial Themed Core to work from, and you start thinking about what your next Warcaster/Warlock will be building towards. So, if it is allowed in Battlebox games, it should be allowed at this level.
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Post by mcdermott on Jan 25, 2019 18:38:58 GMT
At this point I'm tried of discussing ways to "fix the game" when the goal posts keep moving, it's just ridiculous how the solutions are skewed with perception and personal experience (me included). When Mk3 was release: Spam Armies are killing the game! When Themepocalypse was release: Themes are Killing the game! When Books were canceled: The lack of fluff is killing the game! When CID started: CID is killing the game! Right around every WTC season: Competitive players are killing the game! This week is: The Core Rules are killing the game! I mean people pick their number one grievance and make assumptions about fixes, in an effort to make it fit into the "What would bring more joy to me personally" Box. Yes, I understand that either the game, or us as people, grew into a place were we are not getting joy from playing anymore, and that's fine. I for one think that having good positioning and fundamentals, along with the considerable intellectual investment to play well are Strengths of the game, but I think the gigantic SKU count is daunting for newer players to navigate around and it should be fixed first. That's my number one grievance, and I don't know for sure if it will work or not, but it has for other games in the past with little need to shake up the core rules beyond Quality of Life tweaks. Thing thats actually killing the game: the social media community.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jan 25, 2019 18:46:53 GMT
No Feats! Wow. That's the one thing I don't like about this idea, but also I get that that decision probably has to be made for the format to exist. Awesomesauce! Maybe the "PG project" on the Discord doesn't need to happen after all. It does if they focus on building better starters while Jeff and Jaden work on the tourney format. Better yet if those starters are full 25-point armies that are designed to ramp into this format quickly. Even if we use my idea of 35 points with no themes, Those starters could be set up in such a way that you could just add 10 points of anything that you like and go, or they could just be 35-point armies to begin with. Granted, this requires using several of my ideas over the past year (those in bold) and that's easier said than done but I can't imagine a more fitting starter for Trollbloods. It has a mix of iconic models, resilience, and quirky shenanigans that I think makes for a great introduction, even the requisite one ranged attacker. And we finally get a heavy warbeast! But best of all, no Impaler! Trollbloods Army - 35 points [Ragnor 1] Ragnor Skysplitter, the Runemaster [+34] (assuming an average gain for most casters of 4 or 5 on a scale up to 7)- Troll Axer [10] - Troll Bouncer [9] - Dire Troll Blitzer [12] (and Fury 3)- Trollkin Runebearer [5] (can spend Battlegroup Points on caster attachments)Fell Caller Hero [5] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Trollkin Champions (max) [16] And yes, I know, to keep this under $100 they would have to either repackage a lot of back inventory that they might no longer have or find some better solution about materials.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jan 25, 2019 18:58:33 GMT
A couple responses to various questions: I don't believe that any of the changes are being considered for the core rules, but I'm not privy to internal pp playtesting, just this project. Casters would be banned based off either personal output or insane table impact ala sevy2s free spell every turn. That list I posted is off the cuff and super duper in the test phase right now. Don't take it as gospel. The only scenario we have worked out is destruction from Mark 2. Units and jacks score zones, solos and jacks score flags. Casters score both. That change to scoring is something that I would very much like to see in Steamroller. I briefly tinkered with a super-central scenario design that I called "Crossfire" but I abandoned the idea because it was too hard to ever score anything. It could actually work in this format, though, because you have fewer models and only need to be up by 3 to win. It's just a circle in the center with two rectangles touching it on the left and right, with flags where the zones touch. It really sucks everything right into the center of the board and forces a pitched battle there but like I said it didn't work at 75 points.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jan 25, 2019 20:13:36 GMT
At this point I'm tried of discussing ways to "fix the game" when the goal posts keep moving, it's just ridiculous how the solutions are skewed with perception and personal experience (me included). When Mk3 was release: Spam Armies are killing the game! When Themepocalypse was release: Themes are Killing the game! When Books were canceled: The lack of fluff is killing the game! When CID started: CID is killing the game! Right around every WTC season: Competitive players are killing the game! This week is: The Core Rules are killing the game! I mean people pick their number one grievance and make assumptions about fixes, in an effort to make it fit into the "What would bring more joy to me personally" Box. Yes, I understand that either the game, or us as people, grew into a place were we are not getting joy from playing anymore, and that's fine. I for one think that having good positioning and fundamentals, along with the considerable intellectual investment to play well are Strengths of the game, but I think the gigantic SKU count is daunting for newer players to navigate around and it should be fixed first. That's my number one grievance, and I don't know for sure if it will work or not, but it has for other games in the past with little need to shake up the core rules beyond Quality of Life tweaks. That is all perfectly understandable, but something is seriously hurting the game and we can at least try to identify the problem, even if all we know is our own grievances. Yes, we should all be more reasonable about it and more willing to make compromises, myself included, but we should not just shut up or give up if we feel like there's anything to be done. I agree that we should be more willing to adapt our list building before we panic about shifts in the meta, and so on, but there are times when the models and even the rules really do need to change. I would not be at all surprised to see the new CEO order a new edition. I think it might actually be for the best to make a clean break and get as much of this stuff done with as soon as reasonably feasible so we can move on with more stability overall.
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Post by dogganmguest on Jan 25, 2019 22:08:12 GMT
Thing thats actually killing the game: the social media community. Might as well just say "the community", since any community needs to communicate. This site counts as social media.
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Post by mcdermott on Jan 25, 2019 22:37:30 GMT
Thing thats actually killing the game: the social media community. Might as well just say "the community", since any community needs to communicate. This site counts as social media. Im aware but the caveat stands, generally people IME are more negative on forums/facebook/etc than in person.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Jan 26, 2019 0:33:54 GMT
Might as well just say "the community", since any community needs to communicate. This site counts as social media. Im aware but the caveat stands, generally people IME are more negative on forums/facebook/etc than in person. more negative, or more honest? sometimes that line is really thin.
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Post by gedditoffme on Jan 26, 2019 2:18:35 GMT
Im aware but the caveat stands, generally people IME are more negative on forums/facebook/etc than in person. more negative, or more honest? sometimes that line is really thin. There’s a lot of doom prophets hiding behind ‘honesty’, who are just mirroring each other’s negativity The game is in a good place atm, and issues are minor incremental changes. The new format sounds fascinating to bring it to a fastball skirmish size game again!
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jan 26, 2019 3:31:48 GMT
more negative, or more honest? sometimes that line is really thin. There’s a lot of doom prophets hiding behind ‘honesty’, who are just mirroring each other’s negativity The game is in a good place atm, and issues are minor incremental changes. The new format sounds fascinating to bring it to a fastball skirmish size game again! The game itself is not the best it's ever been but it's pretty close. I just worry that it might be too late to stop the bleeding at this point.
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Post by mcdermott on Jan 26, 2019 6:33:03 GMT
Im aware but the caveat stands, generally people IME are more negative on forums/facebook/etc than in person. more negative, or more honest? sometimes that line is really thin. "Just being honest" is stereotypical coded language for "I'm being an Uranus"
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Post by slaughtersun on Jan 26, 2019 11:01:50 GMT
There’s a lot of doom prophets hiding behind ‘honesty’, who are just mirroring each other’s negativity The game is in a good place atm, and issues are minor incremental changes. The new format sounds fascinating to bring it to a fastball skirmish size game again! The game itself is not the best it's ever been but it's pretty close. I just worry that it might be too late to stop the bleeding at this point. What do you mean by not the best its ever been? Honest question
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jan 26, 2019 19:02:40 GMT
The game itself is not the best it's ever been but it's pretty close. I just worry that it might be too late to stop the bleeding at this point. What do you mean by not the best its ever been? Honest question I literally was saying that this is the best the game has ever been until Circle and Skorne blew up in our faces. Yes, they are that bad. Though perhaps this is more galling because for quite a while there we had no more overpowered things than usual. Probably fewer. But right now, for all practical purposes of what sees tournament play, two entire factions are completely broken.
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