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Post by slaughtersun on Dec 20, 2018 15:17:48 GMT
what is an activation and... then blame it on the company For the record, I'm not blaming it on the company. It's such a pedantic thing that I wouldn't expect any company to really think about it. Most people here aren't blaming PP for anything, even the title of the thread is pretty much click bait and the real problem was the players involved. And yet it has worked... the amount of negativism towards the game/ company that it has crept out of the woodwork is astonishing given that its clearly a player issue. It's almost like people just want an excuse to go all doom and gloom on PP. I often wonder what the world would be like if such energy was spent doing something constructive...
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Dec 20, 2018 20:56:58 GMT
For the record, I'm not blaming it on the company. It's such a pedantic thing that I wouldn't expect any company to really think about it. Most people here aren't blaming PP for anything, even the title of the thread is pretty much click bait and the real problem was the players involved. And yet it has worked... the amount of negativism towards the game/ company that it has crept out of the woodwork is astonishing given that its clearly a player issue. It's almost like people just want an excuse to go all doom and gloom on PP. I often wonder what the world would be like if such energy was spent doing something constructive... Yea, it pains me that the people that "left" the game but still hang out shitting on something a lot of us still enjoy wont be happy until PP puts out a Press Release saying "Yup, you were right all along, the games was shit back in 2016 and we just didn't listen to you, so we're closing up shop"
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Post by netdragon on Dec 22, 2018 0:49:36 GMT
And yet it has worked... the amount of negativism towards the game/ company that it has crept out of the woodwork is astonishing given that its clearly a player issue. It's almost like people just want an excuse to go all doom and gloom on PP. I often wonder what the world would be like if such energy was spent doing something constructive... Yea, it pains me that the people that "left" the game but still hang out shitting on something a lot of us still enjoy wont be happy until PP puts out a Press Release saying "Yup, you were right all along, the games was shit back in 2016 and we just didn't listen to you, so we're closing up shop"
That and give Haley1 its temporal barrier back, for starters...
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Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 22, 2018 0:50:09 GMT
And yet it has worked... the amount of negativism towards the game/ company that it has crept out of the woodwork is astonishing given that its clearly a player issue. It's almost like people just want an excuse to go all doom and gloom on PP. I often wonder what the world would be like if such energy was spent doing something constructive... Yea, it pains me that the people that "left" the game but still hang out shitting on something a lot of us still enjoy wont be happy until PP puts out a Press Release saying "Yup, you were right all along, the games was shit back in 2016 and we just didn't listen to you, so we're closing up shop" Speaking personally (and as someone who's still playing, and buying), they'd get a lot of credit from me for just admitting that they Firetrucked up the release back in 2016. Their actions since then (CID, continual references to 'how much they've learned') indicates that they understand that they dun goofed, but I think it'd go a long way to just acknowledge that they screwed up, that they're working to fix it, and that they DO have a plan to fix it (because frankly, we still ain't there yet). Frankly, a lot of my problem with PP at this point is the arrogance you see from certain devs at certain points...and honestly, you'd think that the Mk3 release would have knocked that out of them. For them to release a product that was so aggressively unbalanced, while apparently thinking it's fine...then to follow that up by releasing Una2...you'd think it'd make them more cautious about confidently asserting that 'XYZ is fair and balanced'.
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Post by mcdermott on Dec 22, 2018 2:36:52 GMT
Just playing devil's advocate here in saying that the guy wasn't technically in the wrong, he just lost the moral high ground by enforcing a minor slip-up. And this is the crux of the matter. Technically, you can be really hard on your opponent and enforce minor slip-ups and gotchas, and win games by calling them out when they say things like “I cast razor wind... I mean wind rush. Heh, I get those two mixed up all the time” But... playing like that sounds like a miserable and frustrating experience for both parties. Playing like this is why we have consistent complaints about no casual gaming support and likely a contributing factor to shrinking playgroups. Players who do it outside of a tournament or clearly defined tournament prep games should probably be avoided for the sake of your local communities.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Dec 22, 2018 7:45:44 GMT
I'm repeating myself, but this is what I don't get; people say games shouldn't be taken seriously (especially outside tournaments), yet there seems to be grief and total seriousness when YOU are the one making a mistake and the opponent won't let you take it back. Where is the easy going attitude then? Why can't people just laugh about their mistake, accept it and move on, if they're so "totally not too serious" about the game?
Nobody here at my local meta or even nationwide tournaments are enforcing strict following of rules - especially the best players allow lot of takebacks, they win anyway. BUT it is still kinda funny to assume you should have the privilege of taking stuff back and the opponent should accept or even enjoy it..
The example OP made was especially baffling if I understood correctly that the take back would've practically won the game. So the opponent should've just let him win, even if he made a mistake, because otherwise the opponent is a "jerk" or "cancer"? Come on.
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Post by mcdermott on Dec 22, 2018 8:00:37 GMT
Because on one hand involves one of the parties being a see you next tuesday about casual gaming and the behavior drives away casual players. The other hand is a casual gamer having a negative experience because his opponent is so focused on a win he relied on a "ha-ha gotcha" and tournament style interpretation of the rules to pull out win.
Edit: it all boils down to do you want a community or not. If you do you cant act like a cut throat tournament player during casual play, if you dont you probably shouldn't be surprised when your community dries up and people eventually stop playing.
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Post by jisidro on Dec 22, 2018 19:27:53 GMT
There is no way to write rules that allow no room for ppl to exploit. That's why there are judges.
Blaming a company for duche-like behavior is like blaming the sun for sunburns.
For myself, I start off with my baseline rule... I no decisions have been made and no dice rolled feel free to go back. I will adapt this to my opponent's behavior. If he displays a tighter or wider margin I'll follow.
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Post by michael on Dec 22, 2018 19:55:35 GMT
Here’s what I suggest. Is your opponent the kind of player concerned about whether or not both players are having fun, or only whether or not they are having fun?
And, if your opponent is only concerned about their own fun, is the only way they have fun by winning?
If the answer is “they only care if they have fun”, and “only have fun when they win”, then you should avoid that person. You are likely to have an unpleasant social experience in a fundamentally social game.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Dec 23, 2018 21:02:02 GMT
This thread is getting further and further removed from the OP. Lots of assumptions, lots of preferences turned into "law". The heart of this thread was about how strictly we abide by the rules (and the "do" got turned into a "should" and as a result into a moral issue).
I wonder, would this persons strictness with the rules have been perceived as such a problem if it didn't turn the game around? Is he allways this strict or just when it avoids inconvenience on his part?
Two important questions I feel. A strict adherence to the rules only becomes an issue when you suddenly adopt or drop it. One can have perfectly pleasant games with the biggest ruleslaywer out there if you except this about that person, expect it to be part of that game, and this is indeed what happens, whereas an otherwise loose player suddenly demanding a superRAW ruling can turn a game sour really quickly (the reverse is true as well of course). Similarly, a person that only gets upset by someones strict/loose play when it presents a problem is also effecting the feel of that game.
Maybe we should ask ourselves how consistent we all are in our rulings, both as an active and a passive player. It's easy to be tolerant when things are going our way, stingy when things go bad. It's that switch during a game what creates unpleasant experiences imo, and we've probably all been there; I know I'm an offender in that regard I regret to say.
Edit: thinking back to the OP. During a practise game you probably aren't all that strict (that's an 'if' though), so the ruling demanded by that opponent is weird and unpleasant in light of the above.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Dec 24, 2018 7:06:19 GMT
And yet it has worked... the amount of negativism towards the game/ company that it has crept out of the woodwork is astonishing given that its clearly a player issue. It's almost like people just want an excuse to go all doom and gloom on PP. I often wonder what the world would be like if such energy was spent doing something constructive... Yea, it pains me that the people that "left" the game but still hang out shitting on something a lot of us still enjoy wont be happy until PP puts out a Press Release saying "Yup, you were right all along, the games was shit back in 2016 and we just didn't listen to you, so we're closing up shop" or, and bear with me here, many of those people who "left" haven't really left, their gaming groups evaporated around them, and despite their efforts, they can't get the game to revive in their area because PP has managed to Firetruck things up at such a colossal level. This is probably the case in so many situations. It's also understandable that people would feel angry and frustrated. This game is expensive, and to have the value of their entertainment just blasted to a fifth of what it once was, I mean, that's really frustrating. Bottom line, you can't get angry about something that you don't give a shit about. Maybe some of those bitter clingers, those people who "won't be happy" are actually hoping that PP does come full circle, admit they Firetrucked up, and start taking steps to grow the game again. but you're right, its way easier just to assuming people like shitting on something they have mutually invested in, which is at its core, a social function that requires other people to utilize.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Dec 24, 2018 7:33:29 GMT
or, and bear with me here, many of those people who "left" haven't really left, their gaming groups evaporated around them, and despite their efforts, they can't get the game to revive in their area because PP has managed to Firetruck things up at such a colossal level. This is probably the case in so many situations. It's also understandable that people would feel angry and frustrated. This game is expensive, and to have the value of their entertainment just blasted to a fifth of what it once was, I mean, that's really frustrating. What stops people from still playing 2nd edition then? People still play d&d 2nd and 3rd, warhammer fantasy 5th and 8th. Is it just the tournamentscene? But if apathy towards mk3 is so widespread, what stops people from organzing succesfull mk2 tournaments?
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Post by cainuslupus on Dec 24, 2018 9:32:58 GMT
Yea, it pains me that the people that "left" the game but still hang out shitting on something a lot of us still enjoy wont be happy until PP puts out a Press Release saying "Yup, you were right all along, the games was shit back in 2016 and we just didn't listen to you, so we're closing up shop" or, and bear with me here, many of those people who "left" haven't really left, their gaming groups evaporated around them, and despite their efforts, they can't get the game to revive in their area because PP has managed to Firetruck things up at such a colossal level. This is probably the case in so many situations. It's also understandable that people would feel angry and frustrated. This game is expensive, and to have the value of their entertainment just blasted to a fifth of what it once was, I mean, that's really frustrating. Bottom line, you can't get angry about something that you don't give a shit about. Maybe some of those bitter clingers, those people who "won't be happy" are actually hoping that PP does come full circle, admit they Firetrucked up, and start taking steps to grow the game again. but you're right, its way easier just to assuming people like shitting on something they have mutually invested in, which is at its core, a social function that requires other people to utilize. I'm afraid my local meta is slowly bleeding out players. Having 6 people tournaments is just sad. And I'm often one of those 6 people. We had big influx of players between Mk2 and Mk3, but game ground them down. There is not enough new blood. Warhammer Fantasy (and T9A) has more healthier scene, not to mention Malifaux or Wh40K.
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Post by michael on Dec 24, 2018 18:14:23 GMT
C’mon, folks. “The game” did this, “the game” did that. “The game” did no such thing. The players did it. Either you griped and moaned about how awful everything was after the MK III transition and drove away the less-dedicated players with negativity, or you took it in stride and said “Eh, whatever, I am playing a game for fun, I’ll get over it” and your local community did just fine. I watched this happen. The hardcore Legion players in our area, presumably dismayed at having to learn 30 more pages of rules , quickly burned out all the casual Legion players with their word-of-god pronouncements of doom and gloom. The Trollbloods players did the same. The esoteric griping of the highly competitive crowd scared off a whole bunch of people who were never, ever going to encounter Ghost Fleet or whatever in their lives. Meanwhile, the people like me, those who remained mostly optimistic*, continued to find a steady stream of opponents week after week, and helped provide that stable base required to bring new players into the game. So... for what that’s worth. *Karchev and the Berserker chassis and sensibly-priced Juggernauts, R.I.P.
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eathotlead
Junior Strategist
PP forumite since 2004
Posts: 259
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Post by eathotlead on Dec 24, 2018 19:01:11 GMT
Yea, it pains me that the people that "left" the game but still hang out shitting on something a lot of us still enjoy wont be happy until PP puts out a Press Release saying "Yup, you were right all along, the games was shit back in 2016 and we just didn't listen to you, so we're closing up shop" ... Bottom line, you can't get angry about something that you don't give a shit about. [ emphasis mine -EHL] Maybe some of those bitter clingers, those people who "won't be happy" are actually hoping that PP does come full circle, admit they Firetrucked up, and start taking steps to grow the game again. ... This is very astute, shiver. Despite my current disappointment, I for one will remind myself to praise new, corrective steps by PP when they are taken. (C'mon, new fluff!)
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