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Post by BarbeChenue on Apr 17, 2017 5:43:02 GMT
Hi everyone, "new" player here, I'm actually not that new. I was an avid reader of everything Khador starting in the early days of Mk3, on the late Privateer Press official forums (RIP). Monetary reasons prevented me from acquiring the minis I needed (lucky for me I didn't embark on the Mad Dog train, RIP Komrade). Now that I invested a bit more, and with the help of a good friend, I'm looking at a bright future of wargaming! Now, I see a lot of specific model and list discussions, but in comparison very few about the "basics" of piloting. I'm a Magic: The Gathering player, and a great list doesn't in-itself win you matches. Skills do. And from talking with Warmachine vets, it seems the game has plenty of room for skilled players to shine (it has a high "skill ceiling"). Sure the dice can be against you, or in your favor, but you can make your odds. Blaming fate only gets you so far. I played quite a few games recently, and my mentor has been upping the "rules enforcement" progressively, i.e. no take backs, usage of laser pointer to certify LOS, faster expected turn resolution (with the goal of reducing it to one hour/player, as during tournaments), etc. We also avoid "gotcha" plays that rely on hiding information from opponents. I intend on finishing priming my army and go play some semi-competitive events at my FLGS pretty soon. Now, I've also witnessed two newer players than me have very bad "first games" where they messed up, and got quickly assassinated, despite being warned about their reckless plays. I've won my first game against a more experienced Trollbloods player by taking advantage of an opening to assassinate his caster that he hadn't seen, which relied on getting rid of his warbeast meatshield, thus freeing a perfect charge lane for a Marauder with maxed Focus... Only to lose the next game to Skorne for failing to respect Morghoul 2's ability to launch an incorporeal Molik Karn towards my Karchev... So I get it, newbs mess up noticing assassination attempts. At least I'm not losing sights of scenario points, though I have a hard time avoiding tunnel vision about those. I'm playing this Karchev list. My questions are even more basic than this: 0. How do you deploy if you are first vs. second? Does the scenario affect your deployment in major ways? Do you stick to center most of the time, or do you put all on one flank or do you prefer spreading it out? 1. How do you do your first turn? (If you're 1st, or 2nd?) Do you simply Run (using Power Up focus) warjacks ahead ? Is there a trick with Trample I'm not seeing? When do you use the "I fail a Charge" thingy? Do you always go as forward as possible? How do you move as fast/far as possible (without Karkevitch/WGK theme)? Should you always strive to move as ahead as possible? When do you stay back? 2. How do you position Widowmakers? They are 2 pts per model, yet have one wound. They don't have Stealth, and because they have Advance Deployment, can be in range of the enemy gunline very early. I've been lucky to only lose 1 last game after playing first, thanks to some lucky rolls, but I felt like I moved them ahead too much (we had no cover/unpassable terrain to hide behind). 3.How do you manage movement/activation/sequencing of Battle Mechaniks, Forge Seers, and Man-O-War Kovniks that are support units? I find it extremely complicated to sequence moving them behind my supported models. Either I activate them first to buff but they can't move forward, or I activate them last, they stay close, but end up not buffing. 4. Enemy pie plates are annoying. It seems you can choose to target anywhere and "miss", and rely on dice rolls to hopefully hit something. It's a nightmare with Stealth models when there are enough of them. How do you position your vulnerable low ARM infantry when you know they pack extra AoEs and plan on bombarding you from out-of-range or indirectly fire on your stealthed models. 5. How do you protect a fat warcaster like Karchev? It's tricky to keep your own "assassin" models (i.e. Kayazy Eliminators, Manhunters) withing his 12" Control Range for Road to War without also putting him towards the front. I know Kodiaks have a steam cloud, and Ragers can Shield Guard, but the question is more about how you use/move/position him. 6. Do you spread your army a lot while moving across the board? Do you form a "warjack wall" and walk it forward? Do you send 1-2 ahead and keep 3-4 back to "countercharge" the ones getting attacked? Do you use bait units? 7. When two melee armies, able to measure their mutual threat range, are avoiding each other: how do you determine who goes in the melee first? Should you send a sacrificial lamb-warjack ahead? Should you send infantry to tie enemies down and then charge them? 8. Are there any special movement/charge/positionning tricks that I should be aware of? Like some "named" maneuvers most tournament players know of? I remember reading about back strikes being easier to obtain in Mk3. I.e. tricks that take advantage of model geometry and specific rules. 9. How do you go about trying to notice all possible openings? Do you go through each unit one at a time and measure everything? (That must be time consuming!) How do you mentally optimize the proper sequencing of all your activations, identify weak points and detect optimal charge lanes? Thanks in advance for your tips! |
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Apr 17, 2017 10:28:13 GMT
The difference between M:TG and a tabletop wargame may as well be as wide as an ocean.
There are far too many variables to be able to give a specific list of things of what you should do in a given situation. Then of course the dice might screw you. But anyway.
0. Central and as symetrical as possible. It stops opponents from predicting your plans. If you go second try to predoct your opponents plans and counter it.
1. Run to reposition. The failed charge thing is a way around not being being able to cast spells and run to get your warcaster up the board a bit further. Same with kodiaks. They can't run and cloud but they can trample and cloud.
2.20" away from their intended target.
3. Mechaniks go last, jack support runs to where it needs be on turn 1 in preperation for turn 2.
4. Spread out and hope. If you're shield wall infantry you either hope or go slow and tank.
5. Block charge lanes and use kodiaks to hide him from ranaged attacks. If your opponent ignores cloud then you need to be wary of what hits hardest and keep him away from it.
6. Depends on what the opponent, scenario and terrain is.
7. Try to force him forward with scenario pressure.
8. No.
9. Experience.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Apr 17, 2017 10:48:59 GMT
I think the most important aspect is time management due to deathclock. You can win a losing game simply by playing faster than your opponent. And the only way to improve your speed is practice with specific list, setting lower timer for practice helps.
Karchev is good for beating people on time. You have low model count, your models are all simple so you have less line of plays to consider and playing around countercharge is time-consuming for opponent.
You will die to assassination that you don't know yet, can't do anything about. And if you think you know about it but haven't played against it, you're probably wrong, as good assassination is always flexible.
0. I generally want at least 1 contest model/unit on each flank and 1 damage dealer model/unit at the start.
1. Run far. The only reason not to run far is if something can harmfully shoot you turn 1, but Karchev jackspam doesn't care about shooting, it's only relevant for infantry lists.
2. Widowmakers go as far as possible outside opp threat range. Their first task is to make him question his positioning moving forward. Their second task is to flank his army and shoot support models or contest.
3. Mechaniks either activate before and go up or activate after something comes back to be healed. Spd 5 is a pain on infatry models. Haven't played with Seers yet.
4. Get the blast measurers and spread out.
5. Camp 1-2 and don't stay in melee threat of more than 1 heavy, Karchev can take a lot of damage otherwise. Just remember that Karchev is no Butcher, his combat capability is exactly the same as Juggernaut so you have no reason to go into melee with him unless you're out of jacks.
6. Checkers formation for countercharges.
7. I use 2xclams for that. No list can kill 2 clams and have resources left to significantly damage the rest of you army. You can substitute 2xKodiaks for that, even if they die, clouds remain.
8. Not after power attack nerf. Slamming/throwing your own stuff was very strong before it. As a general advice use power attacks more unless opponent has army wide no slam/no knockdown, a jack with only 1 power up focus is probably better power attacking than making normal attacks.
9. See the opening paragraph. It's generally better to make a worse move than sit around and look for a good one, as long as the worse one doesn't lose you game of course.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496 
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Post by Growl on Apr 17, 2017 11:55:34 GMT
Great post and questions! These are things that I think all of us still struggle with in some way, shape or form. I'll do my best to give you MY answers along with some thoughts, with the hope that someone better either agrees or corrects me...
0 - 1. Deployment really depends on what type of army I'm running. I usually set up centrally to give me the most options of where to send my army next. Melee or mixed armies generally run up if going first and actually if going second too, though I will try to keep out of the alpha shooting or charge range of the enemy, unless I see an advantage to being attacked. There are some opposing shooty lists that you realistically cannot avoid being in range of, unless you want to forfeit on scenario by giving up board control, like a Sloan list with Hunter spam. In cases like that, I will actually try to go second to give myself a little more distance and then try to overwhelm my opponent with number of targets in order to close to melee with them ASAP.
If the scenario allows for my caster to dominate a friendly flag or zone, I will usually deploy my caster close enough to this so that by the end of my second turn I can be reaching this to leave open the possibility of scoring ASAP.
I will keep models close, or closer to each other, if the enemy doesn't have lots of AOEs or leaping like effects, otherwise I will try to keep them a reasonable distance from each other. I learned the hard way, the pain of losing Eyriss turn 2 because of being too close to an easy to hit jack, or trusting too much in her stealth to keep her safe from a 4-5" AOE, that really has a pretty good chance of clipping her.
2. With regard to Widowmakers, the biggest problem I've had with them is getting them too exposed, or having them in the way of my running/charging guys. I play them as far forward as is safe and usually try to commit them towards one side.
3. As HCT said, I try to move my support pieces as far forward as possible to keep them relevant for the next turn.
Need to run, I'll post more later.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Apr 17, 2017 12:02:49 GMT
0. How do you deploy if you are first vs. second? Does the scenario affect your deployment in major ways? Do you stick to center most of the time, or do you put all on one flank or do you prefer spreading it out? Scenario does dictate this a little. Is your plan to get your caster into your zone to dominate? Are you pushing for the enemy zone? Is the scenario symmetrical? All that dictates deployment. If going second, also consider how your opponent has deployed. How are they answering the questions you ask yourself when deploying first? Also look at which bits of their army is where and counter-deploy when you can. Don't put your light infantry opposite their AoEs if you can help it for example. Oh, also consider the terrain and what both your and your opponents models can do with it. 1. How do you do your first turn? (If you're 1st, or 2nd?) Do you simply Run (using Power Up focus) warjacks ahead ? Is there a trick with Trample I'm not seeing? When do you use the "I fail a Charge" thingy? Do you always go as forward as possible? How do you move as fast/far as possible (without Karkevitch/WGK theme)? Should you always strive to move as ahead as possible? When do you stay back? If first, generally it's a run. But there's no point going into opponent threat ranges needlessly. The caster will often cast some upkeeps then fail a charge at something across the board. If going second you can potentially stay out of threat range still, depending on scenario and how far your opponent pushed up. You might be more likely to shield wall when going second for example, or some ranged units might take some potshots here and there. Karchev can cast spells and trample, kodiaks can trample then vent steam, are those the trample things you're asking about? 2. How do you position Widowmakers? They are 2 pts per model, yet have one wound. They don't have Stealth, and because they have Advance Deployment, can be in range of the enemy gunline very early. I've been lucky to only lose 1 last game after playing first, thanks to some lucky rolls, but I felt like I moved them ahead too much (we had no cover/unpassable terrain to hide behind). I try to position them opposite enemy melee infantry for obvious reasons. Something to remember is that it's ok to back up with them if it keeps them safe. Your accuracy drops but they live another turn. Forests are good to hide behind as well, not in. 3.How do you manage movement/activation/sequencing of Battle Mechaniks, Forge Seers, and Man-O-War Kovniks that are support units? I find it extremely complicated to sequence moving them behind my supported models. Either I activate them first to buff but they can't move forward, or I activate them last, they stay close, but end up not buffing. You could checkerboard these models, at least initially. So mechaniks and the like start between warjacks, not behind them. 4. Enemy pie plates are annoying. It seems you can choose to target anywhere and "miss", and rely on dice rolls to hopefully hit something. It's a nightmare with Stealth models when there are enough of them. How do you position your vulnerable low ARM infantry when you know they pack extra AoEs and plan on bombarding you from out-of-range or indirectly fire on your stealthed models. Spread out. Or, take a caster that gives them blast immunity (Irusk2 or a caster with Iron Flesh). For smaller units like eliminators you can always stick them base to base with something with girded to protect them. 5. How do you protect a fat warcaster like Karchev? It's tricky to keep your own "assassin" models (i.e. Kayazy Eliminators, Manhunters) withing his 12" Control Range for Road to War without also putting him towards the front. I know Kodiaks have a steam cloud, and Ragers can Shield Guard, but the question is more about how you use/move/position him. Camp a couple focus and generally stay behind your warjacks. Be aware of what your opponent has that realistically threatens your caster and focus on removing or avoiding them. Do some quick maths of your defensive stats against an enemies offensive stats to get a better idea of what dangers there are to your caster. 6. Do you spread your army a lot while moving across the board? Do you form a "warjack wall" and walk it forward? Do you send 1-2 ahead and keep 3-4 back to "countercharge" the ones getting attacked? Do you use bait units? Largely depends on the list. There's no point advancing in a line if it means your opponent can alpha your whole army. 7. When two melee armies, able to measure their mutual threat range, are avoiding each other: how do you determine who goes in the melee first? Should you send a sacrificial lamb-warjack ahead? Should you send infantry to tie enemies down and then charge them? We have cheap warjacks, use them to star a piece trade with your opponent. As mentioned above, a couple devastators are great for this with Karchev. Oh, also remember feats for messing with the piece trade. 8. Are there any special movement/charge/positionning tricks that I should be aware of? Like some "named" maneuvers most tournament players know of? I remember reading about back strikes being easier to obtain in Mk3. I.e. tricks that take advantage of model geometry and specific rules. I guess be aware of models charging models they're already in melee with? Keep tramples and slams in mind, plus the models that can do those in odd ways like the marauder or that Menoth solo guy. 9. How do you go about trying to notice all possible openings? Do you go through each unit one at a time and measure everything? (That must be time consuming!) How do you mentally optimize the proper sequencing of all your activations, identify weak points and detect optimal charge lanes? Generally, you won't. Particularly in a timed game, you don't want to spend ages agonizing over the perfect sequence of events, you want to get as close to it as possible. As you get better you'll get better at identifying that sequence more quickly, so spend less time getting close to an optimum turn. Also, you should be planning your turn during your opponents turn. As they move each model/unit think about what you need to do about it and what you have that can do it. Do you need to kill it/control it/jam it? Which model does that? Then as they move the next thing, consider your options again. Does that affect any previous options? Then you need to prioritize. Hope something there is useful! Cheers, Dave |
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Post by Netherby on Apr 17, 2017 12:07:57 GMT
Okay well that is a lot of questions and it sounds like you already have a fairly decent teacher. I would suggest you focus on just a couple of those things rather than all of them. I'm not going to address each point, but I will give you a few thoughts.
So, your first few questions are all regarding deployment and the first turn. There is no correct way to deploy or move in your first turn. Deployment and turn one is a skill area of its own. There are basically three levels of play here. Lower level players will deploy and move without any real plan. Mid tier players will have a basic deployment for their list in mind before they get to the table and have some plan for what they want their models to do and adjust it around the scenario and terrain. Higher level players will also adjust based on the position of their opponents models and list. Improvement in this area never ends.
I suggest you start by developing a basic deployment plan for your list. Going first or second doesn't really change anything unless you have enough understanding of your opponents army to counter deploy models. Very few players counter deploy well and it's not actually as important as deploying for the terrain and scenario. Advanced deployment allows you to counter deploy that unit. There is often no reason or need to deploy them the complete 6" forward of your army.
The other important point you raised was assassination and positioning of your caster. Karchev is actually a lot more forgiving of bad positioning. If you really want to learn about caster positioning you should play someone that is easy to assassinate. Irusk for example will die to a stiff breeze if positioned badly. Any way, unless you position outside the threat range of all enemy models your caster is never completely safe. The idea is to position them in a way that the odds to assassinate are poor enough to make it a bad idea. However, if their ONLY viable win condition is to assassinate, you should absolutely position outside as many threats as possible. 5% assassinations happen and if that's all you've got then you will take it.
In conclusion, focus on your basic deployment and game plan first. Don't worry too much about what your opponent is doing until you get that down. Focus on threats to your caster and try to work out how likely they are to work. This will allow you to evaluate your own assassination threats as well.
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Post by sand20go on Apr 17, 2017 17:16:36 GMT
My additions will be in Bold to see if I can add anything (as well as use the formatting tools to my advantage.....;-)
First, a question you don't pose is what to do EVEN BEFORE the dice roll. And I think this is really almost the most important part of WM at a competitive level.....
HAVE A PLAN.
Honestly the games I most frequently lose are those were I fail this step. Honestly it is the hardest step for me because it requires you understand your opponents army, you think about the board (i.e. the terrain) and, I think, you have to put yourself into a competitive stage of mind. This isn't about moving metal robots around the table and wacking on each other....it is thinking about what are the strongest "linchpins" of your army and what are the weakest of theirs. Usually comparative analysis required.
Let me give you 2 examples. One from my game the other day and then one looking at your list.
Example #1. We were playing ENTRENCHED and my opponent has a SKORNE infantry heavy Xerxis 1 list. My list is Harkovich in Jaws theme with a behemoth marshalled by a greyforge seer. There was a fairly large forest and a large piece of Rubble middle board dividing the 2 zones. If you remember, in Entrenched we can dominate for 1 and then shoot out the objective for a point.
Now even BEFORE the roll out there is a good plan here I could have chosen. Go grab my zone. Use Behemoth in a position to shoot out the objective AND provide some removal fire into my zone if he sends grunts to contest. His problem is going to be lack of pathfinder and GETTING stuff from him center/his zone to mine. I can feed the man hunter (and even a Kodiak) into his zone on my turn to slow things up. Unlikely to live but that helps with contesting and getting pace. I can use the kodiak clouds to shield my objective from CRAs from Reivers. Pretty Boring plan (why I ultimately didn't choose it - I wanted to roll dice and get my robot mash on) and I didn't really "see" the plan until post game but that is a good plan. It leverages Hark's mobility and the fact that while Xerxis can give out pathfinder to one unit it is only one unit and lacks much shooting outside the Reivers.
Example #2. Your army. I have 7 models that worry me in a terrain situation - your widows, the manhunters and the WMM. I am "concerned" (like a lot) about your jacks but I also am not really providing you decent Road to War targets (Hark himself plus my manhunter, WMM). So to start those solos are the priority target for Behemoth. My kodiaks put down cloud walls and repo trying to avoid ever getting within 6 inches of you....though should you WISH to counter charge and let me eat stuff fine. I can usually weather that out. In an ideal world the cloud wall and the need that Karchev has to "bunch up" allows me to set the terms of engagement and use Hark's feat offensively. Your counter feat helps a TON against Harks - but hopefully I have used by alpha to effect. To win I have to trade up - ideally killing 4-5 of your jacks for 3-4 of mine so that in the end game I got Behemoth, perhaps a devestator against 1-2 of yours and misc solos. That assumes that terrain hasn't hampered you - again letting me get up on points. This plan isn't as good as plan #1 - getting at the issue of list advantages. I would say our game is 50/50 or even a bit your advantage - though the ability to strike first is going to be huge for me if you make a mistake and don't force me to make bad trades.
0. How do you deploy if you are first vs. second? Does the scenario affect your deployment in major ways? Do you stick to center most of the time, or do you put all on one flank or do you prefer spreading it out? Scenario does dictate this a little. Is your plan to get your caster into your zone to dominate? Are you pushing for the enemy zone? Is the scenario symmetrical? All that dictates deployment. If going second, also consider how your opponent has deployed. How are they answering the questions you ask yourself when deploying first? Also look at which bits of their army is where and counter-deploy when you can. Don't put your light infantry opposite their AoEs if you can help it for example. Oh, also consider the terrain and what both your and your opponents models can do with it. Covered in my "plan". I usually deploy center _IF_ I can get to the zone I want to get to. If not I cheat a BIT but one of the skills you learn is how to cheat to a side but not really....or to fake out your opponent by SEEMING to deploy heavy to one side and then use that 14 inch running with a kodiak to shift right away. One of the advantages of advanced move is the ability to bait your opponent into thinking one way and then essentially countershifting.1. How do you do your first turn? (If you're 1st, or 2nd?) Do you simply Run (using Power Up focus) warjacks ahead ? Is there a trick with Trample I'm not seeing? When do you use the "I fail a Charge" thingy? Do you always go as forward as possible? How do you move as fast/far as possible (without Karkevitch/WGK theme)? Should you always strive to move as ahead as possible? When do you stay back? If first, generally it's a run. But there's no point going into opponent threat ranges needlessly. The caster will often cast some upkeeps then fail a charge at something across the board. If going second you can potentially stay out of threat range still, depending on scenario and how far your opponent pushed up. You might be more likely to shield wall when going second for example, or some ranged units might take some potshots here and there. Karchev can cast spells and trample, kodiaks can trample then vent steam, are those the trample things you're asking about? Going first almost always Run. Going second is about determining how much of the alpha you need to absorb. Remember, you start scoring bottom of 2nd turn....so if you go second YOU can score first. That can be huge for scenario so you want to think about..."If I absorb the alpha strike on top of 2....can I strike back and clear so I can score and can I "remove the jam" so I can contest where HE wants to score?" That puts immediate scenario pressure on your opponent.2. How do you position Widowmakers? They are 2 pts per model, yet have one wound. They don't have Stealth, and because they have Advance Deployment, can be in range of the enemy gunline very early. I've been lucky to only lose 1 last game after playing first, thanks to some lucky rolls, but I felt like I moved them ahead too much (we had no cover/unpassable terrain to hide behind). I try to position them opposite enemy melee infantry for obvious reasons. Something to remember is that it's ok to back up with them if it keeps them safe. Your accuracy drops but they live another turn. Forests are good to hide behind as well, not in. For WM I think your key are 2 fold. First. The WMM gives them the 2 inch move if they kill something. So if they can you would like to engage at MAX range (14), trigger, and then move back. In an ideal world it is back further INTO a forest (or on the other side of it) fully blocking LOS. So you want to use the Advanced Deployment (AD) thinking about terrian. Second, who the WM LOVE to see across the table are high armor infantry AND/oR TOUGH infantry that can't overstack defense. Again, knowing your opponents army is so useful here. For instance, a great target for the WMakers are Retribution Sentinals. They THOUGHT high armor was going to help them get their weaponmaster asses into my jacks. The Widows say no no no.3.How do you manage movement/activation/sequencing of Battle Mechaniks, Forge Seers, and Man-O-War Kovniks that are support units? I find it extremely complicated to sequence moving them behind my supported models. Either I activate them first to buff but they can't move forward, or I activate them last, they stay close, but end up not buffing. You could checkerboard these models, at least initially. So mechaniks and the like start between warjacks, not behind them. +1. I also think a way to get these is to use proxy bases as you play. Ask yourself where do they NEED to be to help out either this turn with a buff or even NEXT turn. That will help you start to figure it out. But I also think here it is a question of experience - which is more learning the precise models and where they need to be (so in the case of Seers 11 inches from the jack they want to empower the NEXT turn (4+7=11),.4. Enemy pie plates are annoying. It seems you can choose to target anywhere and "miss", and rely on dice rolls to hopefully hit something. It's a nightmare with Stealth models when there are enough of them. How do you position your vulnerable low ARM infantry when you know they pack extra AoEs and plan on bombarding you from out-of-range or indirectly fire on your stealthed models. Spread out. Or, take a caster that gives them blast immunity (Irusk2 or a caster with Iron Flesh). For smaller units like eliminators you can always stick them base to base with something with girded to protect them. +1. PLay more into Protectorate. Losing models is a great lesson teacher to SPREAD OUT. See my plan for you. Behemoth has 2 tasty 4 inch pie plates to throw out and hopefully catch those solos you care about ;-)5. How do you protect a fat warcaster like Karchev? It's tricky to keep your own "assassin" models (i.e. Kayazy Eliminators, Manhunters) withing his 12" Control Range for Road to War without also putting him towards the front. I know Kodiaks have a steam cloud, and Ragers can Shield Guard, but the question is more about how you use/move/position him. Camp a couple focus and generally stay behind your warjacks. Be aware of what your opponent has that realistically threatens your caster and focus on removing or avoiding them. Do some quick maths of your defensive stats against an enemies offensive stats to get a better idea of what dangers there are to your caster. +1. So against Karchev his biggest threats are your enemies jacks, weaponmaster spam and then SOME casters. As BofW says, camp a focus (or 2). But also a highly viable "plan" (it is how I play my Butcher 3 Voltron list) is to figure out what are the threats on the table and then go prioritize them. Don't worry TOO much about bad trades. You might spend 22 points to kill 16....but if those 16 where the only real threat left on the board you are in a GREAT place to go scenario bully and there isn't a thing your opponent can do.7. When two melee armies, able to measure their mutual threat range, are avoiding each other: how do you determine who goes in the melee first? Should you send a sacrificial lamb-warjack ahead? Should you send infantry to tie enemies down and then charge them? We have cheap warjacks, use them to star a piece trade with your opponent. As mentioned above, a couple devastators are great for this with Karchev. Oh, also remember feats for messing with the piece trade. +1. One of the hardest things to wrap your head around (especially when you paint your models and you WANT to keep them on the table for as long as possible is that WM has Chess elements. It is a You go- I go game. Just as in Chess a core part of WM is piece trading. So I LOVE to send in a 10 point maurder (or a 14 point Devestator) and watch my opponent send 25 points in as a counter. Guess what, I NOW am probably goign to feat and send in 12 points of Jugger to go to town and wreck face. Then he counters. I counter back and I probably am up 3-4 jacks on him. At that point with Karchev it is "game over". Learning the piece trade is HUGE for khador....and something we really excel at. Indeed, I run by Voltron list essentially throwing away 3 kodiaks. I don't CARE. Please come eat them. I will then Murderate you with Butcher3 and you have nothing left that can threaten him in the maddy/orin bubble. I win.
It is somewhat different than Magic (or at least the really bad magic that I play) since the randomness of the deck makes it hard to anticipate how the trades will play themselves out (plus unless you have cards you are not really trading but tapping and opening up a lane for damage to your count down die).8. Are there any special movement/charge/positionning tricks that I should be aware of? Like some "named" maneuvers most tournament players know of? I remember reading about back strikes being easier to obtain in Mk3. I.e. tricks that take advantage of model geometry and specific rules. I guess be aware of models charging models they're already in melee with? Keep tramples and slams in mind, plus the models that can do those in odd ways like the marauder or that Menoth solo guy. In your list Slams. I would learn those rules forward and backwards. I also would understand throws. You have 3 juggers and a kodiak and they all can do that.9. How do you go about trying to notice all possible openings? Do you go through each unit one at a time and measure everything? (That must be time consuming!) How do you mentally optimize the proper sequencing of all your activations, identify weak points and detect optimal charge lanes? Generally, you won't. Particularly in a timed game, you don't want to spend ages agonizing over the perfect sequence of events, you want to get as close to it as possible. As you get better you'll get better at identifying that sequence more quickly, so spend less time getting close to an optimum turn. Also, you should be planning your turn during your opponents turn. As they move each model/unit think about what you need to do about it and what you have that can do it. Do you need to kill it/control it/jam it? Which model does that? Then as they move the next thing, consider your options again. Does that affect any previous options? Then you need to prioritize. +1. The clock forces choices. It is another resource. Use it very wisely and understand that the perfect turn takes longer. Indeed, your tutor should put you on a clock. Keep playing even if you clock out but TRY not to. It will force you to become a better player.Hope something there is useful! Cheers, Dave |
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Apr 17, 2017 20:41:49 GMT
For #4, pro tip: There are these measuring devices called blast keys. You can measure anything at any time. Until you can eyeball, use blast keys to mind your spacing.
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Post by Voodoogk on Apr 18, 2017 2:36:54 GMT
I think your specific questions were answered fairly well, but the main overall question you ask is a bit deeper than I think can be fully answered here. Piloting is essentially the game, I'm sure you could cover it in a game theory novel or something, but to have it explored on a forum just doesn't seem to happen much. I think what we do as a shortcut to having to write The Art of Warmachine is just write up battle reports. Since most of us here are not exactly world famous generals, it's probably the best method. If you read enough of them, watch a few high end games, you'll pick up things here and there that you don't know. There's a few podcasts that don't just talk about releases... but just like any subject it's best if you consume the learning materials while putting it into practice. In the end you get experience, which is probably more useful anyway.
Instead of telling you that you should keep your models apart in such and such a spacing, play a few games and feed your whole unit to something like bane lord tartarus. You'll learn the basics right there, and you'll have an eye for that spacing, and there will be something in the back of your head telling you to not let that happen again. All of that works way better in a timed environment than measuring to make sure all your guys are a little more than one blast key away from each other.
If you look around enough you'll find resources that talk about every situation, most of them podcasts, sometimes somebody writes a gem on the forums.. sometimes you'll find them out yourself or from your opponent. But I don't think I've ever seen something like a "compendium of good play" that was worth the time it took to write.
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Post by sand20go on Apr 18, 2017 2:44:45 GMT
I think your specific questions were answered fairly well, but the main overall question you ask is a bit deeper than I think can be fully answered here. Piloting is essentially the game, I'm sure you could cover it in a game theory novel or something, but to have it explored on a forum just doesn't seem to happen much. I think what we do as a shortcut to having to write The Art of Warmachine is just write up battle reports. Since most of us here are not exactly world famous generals, it's probably the best method. If you read enough of them, watch a few high end games, you'll pick up things here and there that you don't know. There's a few podcasts that don't just talk about releases... but just like any subject it's best if you consume the learning materials while putting it into practice. In the end you get experience, which is probably more useful anyway. Instead of telling you that you should keep your models apart in such and such a spacing, play a few games and feed your whole unit to something like bane lord tartarus. You'll learn the basics right there, and you'll have an eye for that spacing, and there will be something in the back of your head telling you to not let that happen again. All of that works way better in a timed environment than measuring to make sure all your guys are a little more than one blast key away from each other. If you look around enough you'll find resources that talk about every situation, most of them podcasts, sometimes somebody writes a gem on the forums.. sometimes you'll find them out yourself or from your opponent. But I don't think I've ever seen something like a "compendium of good play" that was worth the time it took to write. +1. I am, howeer, going to start noting in my battle tracker whether I took the time to come up with a "plan" or if I simply moved models around. The challenge is with several hundred models to memorize it is just so hard to remember what their guy can do and what the right "plan" is. Cards help so take 5 minutes off your clock to really study them. |
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Post by Voodoogk on Apr 18, 2017 2:50:05 GMT
+1. I am, howeer, going to start noting in my battle tracker whether I took the time to come up with a "plan" or if I simply moved models around. The challenge is with several hundred models to memorize it is just so hard to remember what their guy can do and what the right "plan" is. Cards help so take 5 minutes off your clock to really study them. Psh.. easy. The plan is to win. |
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Post by BarbeChenue on Apr 18, 2017 3:03:03 GMT
Whoa! That's a lot of amazing advice right there! *bookmark saved* I'll definitely share this to my buddies.
Yeah, the Kodiak Trample thing is something I probably saw during battle reports on YouTube; basically Trample then Vent Steam instead of Run. It's even better, if I understand correctly, with Harkevitch, because of Mobility + Reposition 3"? You get to have Mobility, then Trample, then Vent and Reposition behind your cloud. Even without Harkvitch or Kodiaks, it seems like Trample --in general-- can do pretty much the same thing as Charge for Warjacks, without requiring a target enemy.
Small question: I don't remember where I saw that rule, but do you still have to activate in the back arc of an enemy model in order to benefit from the +2 to Attack from Back Strikes? I think I saw someone, during a battle report, get Back Strike bonuses in a turn in which he moved his model from the front arc to the back arc (excluding Free Strikes that this might trigger). This would be great with Eliminators, I'm guessing you can Charge through and get the Back Strike bonuses as well?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 18, 2017 3:16:48 GMT
Small question: I don't remember where I saw that rule, but do you still have to activate in the back arc of an enemy model in order to benefit from the +2 to Attack from Back Strikes? I think I saw someone, during a battle report, get Back Strike bonuses in a turn in which he moved his model from the front arc to the back arc (excluding Free Strikes that this might trigger). This would be great with Eliminators, I'm guessing you can Charge through and get the Back Strike bonuses as well? No on the first, no on the second as well. I believe once you charge a target you it can't leave your melee range and there are like 3 angles that allow you to charge a back arc like that. But you no longer at least gotta activate in the back arc to benefit. |
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Apr 18, 2017 7:42:34 GMT
Even without Harkvitch or Kodiaks, it seems like Trample --in general-- can do pretty much the same thing as Charge for Warjacks, without requiring a target enemy. The thing to remember is that a trample uses your initial attacks, so you have to start buying attacks at the end of a trample instead of getting to have your charge attack then other initials. However it is a good way to get round things that can't be charged, such as things behind clouds or forests. Cheers, Dave |
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Post by Voodoogk on Apr 18, 2017 19:58:54 GMT
Even without Harkvitch or Kodiaks, it seems like Trample --in general-- can do pretty much the same thing as Charge for Warjacks, without requiring a target enemy. The thing to remember is that a trample uses your initial attacks, so you have to start buying attacks at the end of a trample instead of getting to have your charge attack then other initials. However it is a good way to get round things that can't be charged, such as things behind clouds or forests. Cheers, Dave For Kodiaks especially this is a problem since you lose chain attack completely even if you buy the attacks. Chain attack is one of 3 or 4 things that makes the kodiak awesome so you can probably do without a lot of times though. |
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