|
Post by leotherat on Dec 14, 2018 0:43:22 GMT
I was thinking the same thing but I'd be willing to bet that there are some people out there who'd like to start playing with Pigs,Gators,Dwarves or,Pirates.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Dec 14, 2018 3:54:19 GMT
... also, you need to lose every game you play. good demos are ones where the person demoing the game win. bad demos are about you.... I need to call this out. Giving a demo is not about losing a game. Giving a demo is about teaching the other person how to win.There is a huge difference between the two. Don’t pull a “derp whoops my caster tripped and fell down, you win!” but instead point out “Okay, now I’ll show you how to slam my warjack with yours... and it looks like it’ll end up bowling over my caster and knock him down. Knocking down my caster is good because...” Everybody can intuitively smell out situation #1, and they’ll be repulsed by it and never give the game a second look. However, just about everybody will feel good about situation #2. They’ll feel just as clever as if they had set it up on their own, and they will leave the game with a more favorable opinion of it. I have legitimately given several hundred demo games. Be a cool person, be enthusiastic and knowledgeable, and it’ll work. Don’t rant about balance (or let disgruntled former players do it either; politely but firmly tell them to butt out), or complain about how great something was last edition, or whatever.
|
|
Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on Dec 14, 2018 8:20:14 GMT
The first important thing is consistency. The biggest killer of metas in any game is in inconsistent player base. If people don’t consistently show up to game night people will stop showing altogether. Most people aren’t going to want to drive a far distance only to find out there’s nobody else who showed up to play. If that happens to them enough times they’ll stop showing up altogether. If you’re looking to reboot/start a meta you have to accept that even if nobody plans to show up to game night you still need to be there ready to play on the off chance any walk in or new gamers are interested in a demo game. Be the consistent player, who people know will be there. If people know they’ll be guaranteed to get a game in they’ll be more willing to make a longer commute to the shop.
The second thing are the demos themselves. You should have a minimum of 4 different battle boxes, 2 Warmachine & 2 Hordes, to run demo games for people. You want to give new/interested players a realistic feel for the game, while also allowing them to have fun. You don’t want to throw the game and just let them win, nor do you want to destroy them mercilessly. Thus I’ve found the best way to play in demo games is to play as aggressively as possible, without going for an Assassination unless their Caster is the only model remaining. Do your best to do as much damage to their jacks & beasts as possible so they get use to the idea that their models will die, and they shouldn’t be discouraged by that. At the same time play your caster aggressively as well and leave yourself open to Assassination. This will get them use to the idea that the game isn’t over until it’s over, and that comeback potential is possible. When playing Battle Box demos I’ll charge Agathia into combat to apply Dark Shroud after casting Parasite. Nuke their Heavies’ armor stat than charge it with my own heavy, while leaving Agathia in their face. After Alphaing them hard I usually take 2 of their models off the board, but leave Agathia sitting on 0-1 camp in their face. 99% of the time they’re able to kill her with what’s left.
The third thing is once you have a new players interest to start small. Warmachine is an expensive game to get into. The best thing is to have a consistent low point game night, around 25 points at most, for newer players who don’t have a lot to play the game. The lower the barrier to entry, the more likely a player will be willing to get into the game. If you tell someone in order to really play they’re going to need to spend around $1000 on two 75 point lists in different themes just to get started, they’ll be much less likely to get into the game vs only needing a $40 Battle Box or a Battle Box + $60-$120 worth of additional models depending on what they go for. Have separate game nights, or separate spaces for the 0-25 point players & the 75 point ones. Make sure you’re ready to play at either level.
The fourth thing to remember is that the game is primarily balanced around being played at the 75 point level. When you’re playing 25 point games with new players you should avoid models that are inherently unbalanced at those low point levels. For example avoid Casters that can hard shutdown small number of models like Skarre2 or Haley2. Their feats are absolutely devastating at low point levels. You should also avoid playing gear checks like Karchev or Deneghra2 since it is much less likely that your opponent will have the tools to answer them at lower point levels. While it’s important not to go too hard, it’s also important not to softball people either. While a list like Nemo1 + Silverline Stormguard or Sturgis2’s Thrall Horde might by fluffy, they won’t really pose much of a challenge. If you just let people win all the time they’ll grow bored & stop playing.
Creating a new meta takes time, and don’t be discouraged if it doesn’t take off immediately. What’s important is making sure you pay attention to what the people you’re bringing into the game want from the game and adjust accordingly. Forcing narrative leagues on people who want to focus on competitive play & vice versa is a great way to Doom a meta. Listen to what your players want, and do your best to make it happen.
|
|
|
Post by gedditoffme on Dec 14, 2018 8:49:13 GMT
Next question: Does anyone know of a way to make Merc/Minion battle box sets any where near as inexpensive as the "normal" BB sets? That's around $34 US. If you have a few retired merc players they might be willingto move on their old models to help bring new blood. Magnus and 2 heavies are expensive but relatively common purchases for a merc.
|
|
Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Cyel on Dec 14, 2018 9:52:17 GMT
Question for any/all of you- I'm thinking of running 25 point games (after a lot of BB games)should they be played on a 3'x3' board or would you go to the normal 4'x4' board? I prefer staying with regular distance between player board edges for normal deployment zones and scenario placement, but commonly make the table more narrow. For example, if your club/home/place where you meet has regular Warhammer tables (72" long), you can easily use them as 2 WM&H tables for such small games, dividing them in the middle.
I'd also go for simplified scenario rules and set ups for 25pts games.
|
|
|
Post by zwergenkrieger on Dec 15, 2018 22:02:01 GMT
Next question: Does anyone know of a way to make Merc/Minion battle box sets any where near as inexpensive as the "normal" BB sets? That's around $34 US. Avalancher, 2 Bunnies and either Gorten or Durgen (because Ossrum seems to be too much of a powerhouse in battle box games, though Gorten or Durgen with such a shooty battlegroup might be too powerfull, too). Rockram, Basher, Bunny might also be a good battlegroup, though more expensive. In addition to what others said: show well painted minis, lend minis to newbies, offer as much support as possible. Avoid all those negative play experience like stacking defensive rules to almost invincibility, any kind of controll feat, no spamming of powerful models. Regarding demos: give your opponent the more powerful caster, show him why these are powerful. Don't build anti-lists. If you play with battle boxes, let your opponent choose his army, randomly select yours. Sometimes you can get the old MkII starters for cheap. These are good demo armies as well. Especially the old Legion starter (with 3 Shredders instead of 4 due to new points) is a pretty good starter as well as the Skorne one.
|
|
unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
|
Post by unded on Dec 16, 2018 0:02:34 GMT
... also, you need to lose every game you play. good demos are ones where the person demoing the game win. bad demos are about you.... I need to call this out. Giving a demo is not about losing a game. Giving a demo is about teaching the other person how to win.There is a huge difference between the two. Don’t pull a “derp whoops my caster tripped and fell down, you win!” but instead point out “Okay, now I’ll show you how to slam my warjack with yours... and it looks like it’ll end up bowling over my caster and knock him down. Knocking down my caster is good because...” Everybody can intuitively smell out situation #1, and they’ll be repulsed by it and never give the game a second look. However, just about everybody will feel good about situation #2. They’ll feel just as clever as if they had set it up on their own, and they will leave the game with a more favorable opinion of it. I have legitimately given several hundred demo games. Be a cool person, be enthusiastic and knowledgeable, and it’ll work. Don’t rant about balance (or let disgruntled former players do it either; politely but firmly tell them to butt out), or complain about how great something was last edition, or whatever. 100% agree here. Another option is one I used when running demo games at a con. One of the group of us (we brought three armies, and let one of us play against the potential newbie who would use someone else's army) would be playing while another would guide the newbie. Once we got to an interesting assassination, instead of murdering the newbie (obviously a stupid idea), I invited him around to my side of the table, and told him to try unlock the assassination himself, explaining the tools at hand. Basically letting him treat it like a chess puzzle that just happened to appear on the table. This way the newbie gets to see how his king can die, but also gets to solve the puzzle himself which is a lot of fun, and ensures they walk away smiling from a game they technically lost.
|
|
|
Post by Havock on Dec 16, 2018 6:10:35 GMT
It also depends on the type of person sitting across the table. Some people need to be more involved in the game on your end and others just don't want you taking a fall for them and are just looking at how you do things.
A demo game is first and foremost a learning experience, most people have do's and don'ts.
Also, it depends on the gaming background, all-around interest and capacity of the one being demo-ed. Some people are figuring out how that measuring type and dice thing work while others are already asking questions like "how far can I charge/shoot" and obviously have it in for your caster.
|
|
unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
|
Post by unded on Dec 16, 2018 13:17:45 GMT
It's a little more than that, though.
You want to highlight the strengths of the game, especially since there are so many games to choose from nowadays.
The kill-the-king (assassination) win condition of WMH is uniwue as far as I know in the crop of popular wargames, and the intricate setups that enable it are really interesting. It's a strength absolutely worth letting a newcomer experience when they're trying to decide which (if any) tabletop mini game to dive into.
|
|
|
Post by zwergenkrieger on Dec 16, 2018 15:29:00 GMT
It's a little more than that, though. You want to highlight the strengths of the game, especially since there are so many games to choose from nowadays. The kill-the-king (assassination) win condition of WMH is uniwue as far as I know in the crop of popular wargames, and the intricate setups that enable it are really interesting. It's a strength absolutely worth letting a newcomer experience when they're trying to decide which (if any) tabletop mini game to dive into. Yes, I fully agree here. But that is part of the problem why it is so hard to dive into that game: There are 3 win conditions, but you really can't show all of them in a demo game. The thrill of timed games is something you won't be able to show a newbie. Maybe if he watches a game. Scenario also is off the demo game due to too less models on the board. Maybe you could work with a rectangular zone and a flag... Assassination as the third win condition is the one most battle box games come down to. But there are casters who do it better than others... Nevertheless: a great threat here. I hope I can use some of the infos to increase the players base in my area.
|
|
unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
|
Post by unded on Dec 16, 2018 16:15:14 GMT
For our demo games, we didn’t use battle boxes.
None of us (the guys running the demos) particularly like the battle boxes, and we felt they do a poor job of highlighting the game’s strengths.
Instead we each built 20-point lists, making sure to use relatively simple casters, but with condition that each list have at least 1 solo, 1 heavy and one unit. We avoided solos that buff as support tends to complicate things unnecessarily.
As I recall, we had Baldur2, Butcher1, Krueger1 and (something Menoth, forget who) to choose from. We also had some basic scenario to force people to get stuck in.
The specifics don’t honestly matter too much, they’re just a way to get you thinking about how you’d do it instead. What matters is the goal, which imo is:
1) Newbie has fun 2) Newbie sees the strengths of WMH (whatever you may think those are) 3) Newbie learns some basics of the rules 4) Vet has enough to work with that he doesn’t get bored
Point 4 is often neglected, or simply treated as some suffering that the vet is just going to have to power through. If you design it right, this doesn’t have to be the case, and far more vets will be happy to teach newbies, which helps everyone
|
|
|
Post by leotherat on Dec 16, 2018 19:05:16 GMT
I love the points you are all making. Please continue.
|
|
shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
|
Post by shiver on Dec 18, 2018 3:16:19 GMT
... also, you need to lose every game you play. good demos are ones where the person demoing the game win. bad demos are about you.... I need to call this out. Giving a demo is not about losing a game. Giving a demo is about teaching the other person how to win.There is a huge difference between the two. Don’t pull a “derp whoops my caster tripped and fell down, you win!” but instead point out “Okay, now I’ll show you how to slam my warjack with yours... and it looks like it’ll end up bowling over my caster and knock him down. Knocking down my caster is good because...” Everybody can intuitively smell out situation #1, and they’ll be repulsed by it and never give the game a second look. However, just about everybody will feel good about situation #2. They’ll feel just as clever as if they had set it up on their own, and they will leave the game with a more favorable opinion of it. I have legitimately given several hundred demo games. Be a cool person, be enthusiastic and knowledgeable, and it’ll work. Don’t rant about balance (or let disgruntled former players do it either; politely but firmly tell them to butt out), or complain about how great something was last edition, or whatever. Winning makes people feel good. People who feel good are more likely to expose themselves to the stimuli that makes them feel good. This is a common sales hook. Make no mistake about it. A demo game isn't a learning experience. How much education are you going to give to someone who isn't playing the game yet? How many of your sage and noble lessons are they going to walk away with? A demo game is about selling the game. It's about making it fun and engaging by exposing someone to something they have never been exposed to before and making it entertaining to them enough that they would want to try it again. Beat the shit out of someone, make the demo about you and showing off how much you know about the game and how awesome you are and you will detract the audience. Make it about them and people are more likely to play it, they are more likely to listen to you, and if they win (and the closer the margin the better) there is an exhilaration to it that will increase the likeliness they will want to do it again. A demo game is a trailer, its not a "101" course. the 101 course comes when they bought their first starter box. This IMHO is one of the worst things about the way WMH gets people in. They make it seem like the battlegroup and warlock/caster are all there is, and then people start playing and learn that there are all kinds of really screwed up rules and interactions and the rest of the game they have to learn that is just as crunchy as the battlebox is. Battleboxes should be changed to include a small squad of something and increase their cost by a few bucks (or not increase at all, and make them a bit more like GW start collecting boxes, which are good values) Also, in terms of dealing with the veterans who have gotten burned and left PP games. I don't agree with the "but out" approach. All that does is signal that you are trying to hide something. Their complaints are legitimate and if you try to silence them, the new person is just going to find them to find out what the "other side" of the story is, or the veteran will seek them out when you are not there. What is best, in my opinion, is to deal with them head-on, acknowledge the failures of PP, explain the rationale, and what PP is doing to fix their Firetruck ups. If the player wants to try it after that, awesome, if they don't, well, so be it. I'll find more people to give demos to and ill keep trying, but I sure as hell am not going to try to silence someone, all that does is make me "guilty" of covering up a nasty truth and that will crush whatever trust I am trying to get built with the prospective new player. telling them to but out is horrible advice and I wouldn't do it.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Dec 18, 2018 3:53:28 GMT
Shiver,
I disagree with basically everything you said. I have watched excited new players simply shut down and metaphorically (and in one case, literally) put away their wallets when a disgruntled player rants about some stupidly trivial corner-case rules forum ruling. I have watched other players, who are trying to be helpful, start advising the demo recipient as I am in the middle of explaining something, and I could visibly see their confusion skyrocket and their interest wane as they stopped playing the game and started watching some other random dude effectively play the demo for them.
I have watched hotshot demo givers pull the “derp derp my caster forgot his pants and tripped and now you win because your Deathjack somehow has 12 focus and punched him to death!” schtick and every single time it has turned off the recipient. The new players are inexperienced, not stupid. They can tell when the game is being thrown for the sole purpose of making sure they win to make them feel good. Approximately 9.8 times out of 10 it doesn’t work. People don’t like to feel manipulated. “See, you’re soooo good you spanked me the first time you ever touched this game even though we both know you don’t know how to play! Now you should go buy it!” People aren’t stupid. They know when they are being lied to.
But, what do I know? I have only been giving Warmachine demos and introducing new players to the game for 13 years.
How has your approach worked out? What’s your conversion rate? I’m sitting around the 85-90% mark for converting demos to purchases.
|
|
shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
|
Post by shiver on Dec 18, 2018 4:34:54 GMT
Shiver, I disagree with basically everything you said. I have watched excited new players simply shut down and metaphorically (and in one case, literally) put away their wallets when a disgruntled player rants about some stupidly trivial corner-case rules forum ruling. I have watched other players, who are trying to be helpful, start advising the demo recipient as I am in the middle of explaining something, and I could visibly see their confusion skyrocket and their interest wane as they stopped playing the game and started watching some other random dude effectively play the demo for them. I have watched hotshot demo givers pull the “derp derp my caster forgot his pants and tripped and now you win because your Deathjack somehow has 12 focus and punched him to death!” schtick and every single time it has turned off the recipient. The new players are inexperienced, not stupid. They can tell when the game is being thrown for the sole purpose of making sure they win to make them feel good. Approximately 9.8 times out of 10 it doesn’t work. People don’t like to feel manipulated. “See, you’re soooo good you spanked me the first time you ever touched this game even though we both know you don’t know how to play! Now you should go buy it!” People aren’t stupid. They know when they are being lied to. But, what do I know? I have only been giving Warmachine demos and introducing new players to the game for 13 years. How has your approach worked out? What’s your conversion rate? I’m sitting around the 85-90% mark for converting demos to purchases. Well, gee, you got me there. I was a PG for 5+ years before the program shut down, and was very successful, I don't know what my conversion rate was, I was never so self-involved as to measure it, but I grew a community from 2 players to 24 person leagues firing consistently for about 5 years, with rotating rosters. Sure, I'll concede I don't have your experience, so I guess if we're measuring our e-dicks, yours is bigger. 85-90%? Bullshit. only 1/10 says no to you huh? that would make you either the single greatest salesperson in the world or you are just severely stretching the term "conversion" and we have different definitions. Also, you have this idea that building the demo to let them win is an "erp-derp i tripped" thing. Its not. Its guiding them to do the things to beat you. Its making it fun and making them laugh a little while describing what is happening in the lore, and how they should kill you and the mistakes you make along the way. this oops, your deathjack has 12 focus on it thing is an obvious plant, but then again, who the Firetruck plays death jack in a battlebox anyway? I agree with you that people can see an obvious plant. Make the demo about their experience and how they win, and people dont see it that way. Its a technique that is used by ever professional sales peron in the world. With a conversion rate of 85-90%, i figured you would know that. Additionally, players deserve to be informed. I don't want to sell anyone on a game, and not deal with the objections people have to it, because they will arise, either at the store, online, or on forums. I certainly don't want to sell someone a story of lollipops and candy canes, and they start playing and it's a different story, once they meet the community and the reality of the game, sits in. This is a significant investment, and now even more expensive than many GW armies. Players should understand what they are getting into. Now, that doesn't mean I lead off with "wanna try WMH, cause PP SUCK". But if objection arises, I want to deal with them head on and in a truthful manner. Because believe me, they will find out, and if you sold them a bunch of bullshit, like "every faction is super balanced and every model is playable" or some such bullshit, it will come back to bite you, and you will lose that player anyway. I've seen that happen too. I want people to play the game I love because I love it and I see merit in it and its a good game.
|
|