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Post by paradox on Dec 19, 2018 1:25:22 GMT
Like, an argus is just as good and harder to kill in this list. B&C are pretty meh. An argus doesn't have nearly the same damage potential. You also stated that you're using the Argii to kill heavies but you're spending 28pts on 4x pow 20s and an additional 7 on the extra gorax to get them to that level, so 35 total. Those points would be much better spent on a feral+stalker for 33pts and have the extra 2pts to play with. Maybe. But Ive done dumb argispam with Kromac2 in two editions now and Im pretty happy. I normally like it better with Call nowadays, but B&C deliver ~ a feated argus worth of damage, then die alot easier. Where I have 3 more argi in this list. Caul is a PS19 charge, buy 3 PS17s, assuming the Croc Pot, and that Brighid ran (shes not charging cause if she pops her head out, shes dead). Feat/Primal argus is PS20 combo and 2 PS16s. It take more to kill that B&C, but also still dies. Requires no Pot. Quick summary I wrote up on another forum on tonights game. I played into Children of the Dragon with Abby1. It was a good fight, though I was plauged by some poor dice, including making no Tough rolls (or maybe one, cant remember and it didnt matter by that point). More, it was hard to play around his superior melee threat, and a large central tower let him kite me with guns. Combined, I lost to assassination bottom of 6. I MIGHT have squeaked it on scenario if Id have made it to bottom of 7, but I doubt it. I was up by two, but late game attrition swung too far. The wolf rider champ got in GREAT position to melee two raptors and throw at a third. Average dice kills all 3. Shit dice killed none a spread 1-3 damage over a few models each. Her great defenses let her live at 1 through some lucky spike, and she ultimately netted 2 kills before repoing JUST in walk backwards range of a soldier. Shoulda premeasured. Overall, she was a GREAT include and a pretty amazing disruptor, even with her poor luck. It wasnt a terrible list. Not great, but not terrible. I came up with some revised ideas: Theme: The Devourer's Host 1 / 1 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Stockpile - Steamroller Objective Kromac, Champion of the Wurm - WB: +28 - Tharn Blood Shaman - PC: 4 - Ghetorix - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19) - Loki - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Wild Argus - PC: 7 - Wild Argus - PC: 7 - Wild Argus - PC: 7 - Gorax Rager - PC: 7 Tharn Ravager Shaman - PC: 4 Tharn Ravager Shaman - PC: 4 Lord of the Feast - PC: 0 Tharn Ravagers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 10 Tharn Ravagers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 10 Boil Master & Spirit Cauldron - Boil Master & Spirit Cauldron: 5 Basically, I give up on Vengeance and minifeat on min units, but add Loki for Shield Guard and a gun, LotF for more at range threat, and the Pot for bodies on demand.
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Post by paradox on Dec 19, 2018 1:28:28 GMT
Like, an argus is just as good and harder to kill in this list. B&C are pretty meh. I do not know how you come to this conclusion... With the basic support You just assumed 9 additional points, plus RFPing a model, to match Primal + feat, so I think you explained it yourself. Like many folks, you undervalue the argus. I exploit that assumption pretty regularly when not facing locals who know better.
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Post by paradox on Dec 19, 2018 1:32:15 GMT
Circle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Devourer's Host [Kromac 2] Kromac, Champion of the Wurm [+28] - Feral Warpwolf [16] - Ghetorix [19] - Warpwolf Stalker [17] - Tharn Blood Shaman [4] Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [4] Lord of the Feast [0(6)] Tharn Ravager Shaman [4] Tharn Ravager Shaman [4] Tharn Ravager White Mane [0(5)] Boil Master & Spirit Cauldron [5] Tharn Ravagers (min) [10] - Tharn Ravager Chieftain [5] Tharn Ravagers (min) [10] - Tharn Ravager Chieftain [5] Love the thinking on min ravager units for board presence. I'll need to try that out and see if I like it. Not gonna lie, its a sexy list.
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Post by elshinare on Dec 19, 2018 2:16:50 GMT
So, here's the problem with Cual, Brighid dies, he is down 4 ps...requires a crockpot so the unit should be counted as 12 points. Cual also has no way of gaining multiple corpses per turn, unlike LotF who can bloodreaper and gain a bajillion corpses. Argi are a bit more complicated, they kinda need either Kromac 2, a source of primal (or amuck since it works on combo smite), or something that knocks def down (so their own animus/tanith/Morvahna 1). But, the more argi you play the cheaper the primal source you brought becomes to their added cost (i.e. B&C+CP=12 7argi+gorax=8 p/argi). And yes I just worked the Well of Orboros math backwards
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Post by paradox on Dec 19, 2018 2:23:17 GMT
So, here's the problem with Cual, Brighid dies, he is down 4 ps...requires a crockpot so the unit should be counted as 12 points. Cual also has no way of gaining multiple corpses per turn, unlike LotF who can bloodreaper and gain a bajillion corpses. Argi are a bit more complicated, they kinda need either Kromac 2, a source of primal (or amuck since it works on combo smite), or something that knocks def down (so their own animus/tanith/Morvahna 1). But, the more argi you play the cheaper the primal source you brought becomes to their added cost (i.e. B&C+CP=12 7argi+gorax=8 p/argi). And yes I just worked the Well of Orboros math backwards Argus are still solid with Kromac2. But I think it also counts on volume. At least 4 is probably what you need. I can get more in Call pretty easy. Dev Host probably isnt the best spot, but it was fun to try Kromac there.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 19, 2018 11:52:41 GMT
I do not know how you come to this conclusion... With the basic support You just assumed 9 additional points, plus RFPing a model, to match Primal + feat, so I think you explained it yourself. Like many folks, you undervalue the argus. I exploit that assumption pretty regularly when not facing locals who know better. Wild argus are cute with Big Mac. I think I still prefer heavies but you can get work done. As far as comparing to B&C. With no other buffs (than Pot which you should be taking lord of the fuzz at that point anyway so cost splits between the 2 Dudes. And poT also bring support for the rest of your army, etc.) Caul with gang + prey alone does: 24 Damage to a Arm 19 heavy. If you add Brigid you just kill it. And she doesn’t always just run. She’s also got a good gun on her which let’s you do chip damage on the way in. In addition caul has Grevious wounds and the unit has treewalker, making them really good at using terrain, and getting there, and crippling whatever they need to. A single feated + primalled Wild argus only does 18 Damage to Arm 19. Which is a 6 point difference. It gets more nasty if you bring DI, where caul basically almost kill a heavy on his own. Wild argus are cute under Kromac, but B&C are just flat better for trading. Now I only plan to use them with Baldir1, Wurmwood, and Grayle. Because all 3 have really good delivery tech and a Damage buff for the unit. Also bonus note B&C can potentially kill a Collossal any turn of the game under the 3 casters I mentioned. Also Also, B&C have that output every turn, where argus only have it on feat turn.
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Post by paradox on Dec 19, 2018 12:35:30 GMT
In what play Ive had proxing B&C, Brighid dies if she does anything but hide til she can guve Gang. Then she dies the turn after. Moreover, its not all that hard to just kill Caul, unless he has a favorable forest to hide behind. Whereas any random argus can accomplish the task at hand, and its impractical to kill them all at once. B&C are ok, but not what theyre being crackup to be. Plus, its a minimum 11pt package. Kromac does just fine without the pot. And in my game I skipped over LotF for the wolf rider champ anyway. Though I agree that if I went LotF, Id want the pot. But then my free card cost 5 non-faction points. And here, its enough to lose me another free card because of that. Point is, there are cases where “forum sense” is just wrong. And its very common for even the top of the meta to outright miss great stuff. I have copious examples over 3 editions now. In some cases its hears before they catch on. Im not saying argus are hidden genius. But I am saying B&C are being heavily oversold. They are solid for what they do at cost. And in the right list, given copious support can shine. But thats true of many pieces. And at bottom they are just basically two moderately difficult to handle solos, more or less. Caul can deliver pressure to a point, but REALLY needs Brighid to do it. And shes so high value that if shes exposed and your opponent doesnt kill her, they are either unlucky or just bad.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 19, 2018 12:41:49 GMT
I agree that with 0 defensive/delivery tech Brigid is way too easy to scalple. I don’t think I would run them with Big Mac for that reason. But with any caster with rapid growth, Blast immunity tech, or anti shooting tech (like Grayle) they are pretty amazing for cost. With treewalker and rapid growth you can basically force your opponent to not place anything with fails Threat range. I’m not trying to use forum sense. I used play play Big Mac puppy bowl too and it was really fun. I just don’t think I’d take argus over heavies with him now in a world where the feral is only 16 points and the goats are only 12 or 14. Keep in mind dox I’m a Mohsar advocate and I think Sevvy2 is really viable in the current meta. Both of which don’t match up with internet sense
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Dec 19, 2018 13:00:08 GMT
I'm really looking forward to a Kaya3 / Iona pairing.
The reworking of our heavies has me itching to play Wild Hunt, and Iona looks like fun (although I can't fit my blood pack in, so I might mess around with Moh)
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Post by streetpizza on Dec 19, 2018 14:19:54 GMT
Caul is a PS19 charge, buy 3 PS17s, assuming the Croc Pot, and that Brighid ran (shes not charging cause if she pops her head out, shes dead). Feat/Primal argus is PS20 combo and 2 PS16s. It take more to kill that B&C, but also still dies. Requires no Pot. Quick summary I wrote up on another forum on tonights game. Here's the problem with what you're saying here. You also have a blood shaman in the list. The blood shaman cannot apply her buff to argi. She can apply it to Caul and LotF. The pot supports not just Caul but also Kromac and LotF while also bringing a range 10 pow 12 boostable gun and puppet master. Assigning all 5pts to B&C is just wrong. I don't know how you're loosing a def 16 stealth model that always has a shield guard nearby but I think you need to work on improving play there. Does your meta not play with forests? Any forest up near the front and she's def 18 for melee armies or behind the forest ready to charge forward with tree walker. She's squishy but not THAT squishy. In reading your arguments though i think I see what a big part of your problem with them is. They are not an alpha piece. They are a second wave that hits far above their weight class. Keep them back to kill things that kill your heavies and that's where they shine. Control board space and create no go zones for enemy heavies. They will almost always disappoint if you attempt to use them as a first wave beat stick. The one point you've been making that I do agree with though is that quantity has a quality all its own. A critical mass of argii brings something to the table that isn't quantifiable and doesn't have a single point of failure. I'll give the bat rep a read later and see how you're making it work.
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Post by paradox on Dec 19, 2018 14:58:21 GMT
Caul is a PS19 charge, buy 3 PS17s, assuming the Croc Pot, and that Brighid ran (shes not charging cause if she pops her head out, shes dead). Feat/Primal argus is PS20 combo and 2 PS16s. It take more to kill that B&C, but also still dies. Requires no Pot. Quick summary I wrote up on another forum on tonights game. Here's the problem with what you're saying here. You also have a blood shaman in the list. The blood shaman cannot apply her buff to argi. She can apply it to Caul and LotF. The pot supports not just Caul but also Kromac and LotF while also bringing a range 10 pow 12 boostable gun and puppet master. Assigning all 5pts to B&C is just wrong. I don't know how you're loosing a def 16 stealth model that always has a shield guard nearby but I think you need to work on improving play there. Does your meta not play with forests? Any forest up near the front and she's def 18 for melee armies or behind the forest ready to charge forward with tree walker. She's squishy but not THAT squishy. The one point you've been making that I do agree with though is that quantity has a quality all its own. A critical mass of argii brings something to the table that isn't quantifiable and doesn't have a single point of failure. I'll give the bat rep a read later and see how you're making it work. RE B&C and blood shaman. True. But Kromac offers them no defense, so Im relying on hoping terrain favors me. As to Stealth solos, I see lots of Cryx and Legion, some Cygnar or Ret. Theres NO struggle in those cases dealing with a high DEF low ARM Stealth model. Especially not if it neuters a potential threat like Caul. Like, none. Similarly, I rarely struggle with Circle or Menoth to handle such threats. This has been the sort of stuff you need to deal with from day one. Back in 2004 it was Eiryss. Brighid is no different. Bottom line, I strongly doubt B&C bring much to Kromac2, and especially not in the list I had.
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diceguy
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 7
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Post by diceguy on Jan 19, 2019 18:13:37 GMT
As I'm always looking for a challenge, I'm really enjoying playing this:
Wild hunt theme -Morvahna the Autumnblade + 28 -Brennos the Elderhorn 15 -Woldwarden 14
-Wolf lord Morraig 8 -reeve hunter free -reeve hunter free -gallow grove free -gallow grove 2 -war wolf 2 -war wolf 2 -war wolf 2
-min unit reeves of orboros 10 -death wolves 9 -max unit warpborn skinwalkers & warpborn Alpha 19 -max unit wolves of orboros & chieftain/standerd 15 -boil master & cauldron 5
Morvahna & her beasts together with the groves concentrate on spreading the love. (And with love I mean mortality)
Warpborn with restoration are a massive tarpit that are really hard to get rid off, and their hyper regeneration combined with Brennos Rite of spring for even more tar (healing 2d3 a turn is great, could even use the feat once they really get stuck in for even more healing)
Crocpot will fuel the deathwolves (making a second tarpit that throw themselves om anyone that could threaten the first) and throw puppet master on either Morvahna,the warden or anyone that really needs the dice to cooperate.
Reeves, the hunters & war wolves are there to pounce on solos (wolves can threaten between 20-24 inch with a well timed sic em) The reeves can shoot at light stuff, or annoy harder targets with 2 rat 11 (12 if Morraig is watching) p+s 14 shots They die easily but can then become croc soup. Wolves will be waiting in ambush, they can stab light stuff or solos with highly accurate back strikes (mat 10 if single or even mat 12 when combining) or power swell for some more oompf.
It's win ratio is about 60%, but I'm always open to suggestions.
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Post by Trollock on Jan 19, 2019 20:08:04 GMT
I tried morvhana 1 with wild hunt during the CID, and i can totally see a kernel of a good list there. A few tweaks to wild hunt and this will be a real thing imo. I do not think the reeves or morraigh or the second gallows grove does very much for the list, and i do not see a way for the list to kill any amount of armor. The problem is that there is nothing else that is better to out in there... More beasts might be the thing... Sorry im rambling now Glad its working well for you!
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diceguy
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 7
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Post by diceguy on Jan 22, 2019 16:32:17 GMT
I tried morvhana 1 with wild hunt during the CID, and i can totally see a kernel of a good list there. A few tweaks to wild hunt and this will be a real thing imo. I do not think the reeves or morraigh or the second gallows grove does very much for the list, and i do not see a way for the list to kill any amount of armor. The problem is that there is nothing else that is better to out in there... More beasts might be the thing... Sorry im rambling now Glad its working well for you! Thanks a lot! I'm pleasantly surprised how wel the list is doing. -the reeves are there to trigger sic ems, fuel the pot, grab zones and whatever else I can think off. They are really good at drawing attention taking fire away from other parts of the list. -with both gallows and brennos, I have arc angles wherever I need it to be. One gallow is easily neutralized, two is a bit more difficult. It also allows me to "sacrafice" one of them to get entropic force into play. Lastly, gallows are pretty good flag grabbers, "stealthly" crawling towards their objective from terrain is a thing -Morraig is love Morraig is life, he only needs to be there to make everything better. First part of the battle he just gallops around, spreading his dudebro skills. Reeves become mat/rat 6 Hunters become mat/rat 7/8 Deathwolves become mat 8 Skinwalkers become mat 7 I could name the wolves too, but with ambush/powerfull charge/combined melee they don't need it that much. Later one he can whack stuff with a flank charge, than his wolf can bite something and with a bit of luck, big Mo can smack something again! (Cause cleave) With mortality he can hit pretty decent. And because off dragoon, enemy has to kill him twice before his delicious aura stops. Have played against the following: -kallus1 primal terrors (chosen really hate mortality) -Sloan with lots of guns (heavies died like that, but he couldn't shoot the warpborn down as fast as I replaced them) -butcher man oh horde (really tough match up, but did better than I thought) -cephalyx (drudges with mortality? Even reeves rip them apart) -Makeda3 beast heavy (her new spells are insane! Still barely lost, both our armies were decimated, but makeda got to morvahna "sad face")
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Post by elshinare on Feb 9, 2019 18:10:03 GMT
Okay, so have been playing Iona in place of baldur 1 for my bikini kill team, and that's a list worth learning, now I am trying to decide on if I want to go all out and get bloodpack or ravagers and morvahna 1 to see how much jank they can do, although I wish I could throw a warden in those lists, could go with reeves woo and skinwalkers in wildhunt as well
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