As a person who likes owning the things I purchase: subscription models suck and I avoid them like the plague. Speaking as a consumer, why would I ever want to rent my music/games/entertainment in perpetuity when I could own it outright?
No. Just no.
Also, putting a 75-point army in a box and handing it to new players is suicide. I have personally observed first-hand far too many new players get stupid advice from quote-unquote “competitive” friends, watched them painfully stumble through their first 50 or 75-point demo game and get frustrated by every minute of it, and never touch the game again.
Wow this is a long thread. Offering up the following
A) Like a lot of firms in a lot of industries PP suffers from the problem of not FULLY embracing what its core customers want. It is CLEAR that PP caters to the gamers (and I am not even sure that is the right term) that want a competitive game. Why I saw "not sure" is that I know a fair number of WM/Hs players who _ONLY_ play WM/H as their "game". Oh they might take up a board game from time to time but they are not going to random board game night or FFM or dabbling in casuals. They play WM for a variety of reasons but it akin to the reason that people play competitive chess - to win and to test one's mental abilities.
B) Embracing this would include, for example, rankings, ladders, etc. etc. Tournaments and SR would likely be seeded. There could be divisions. Lots of things to embrace the fact that it is competitive, some folks are better than others and that playing "up" is not always fun and enjoyable for people (or one might also say "down").
Are we completely sure that the most hardcore competitive players are PP's core customers? I mean, they are probably the most vocal and definitely have the highest profile, but do they make up such a huge portion of not just the current players, but also the potential customer base, that PP should put resources into them to the exclusion of others?
I know locally, the guy who has spent way more than anyone else I know on PP products is not a competitive player -- he's very casual, and he is known as a big fan of the lore. I've talked to employees at the FLGS who have mentioned that they've been selling to more than just the couple dozen or so who go to tournaments. Meanwhile, the hardcore competitive types do so much buying and selling armies on the secondary market based on the latest hotness that I'm not sure how much they actually spend on new PP product. Also, I can't be the only hobby gamer who has spent three times as much as a model is worth because I had a cool conversion idea and needed bits from other models in PP's line. Finally, while most players want to not be terrible at the game, I can count on one hand the number of players I know who aspire to be on a WTC team or something like that. At the last big convention I went to, yeah, there were some elite level players who made up the top 8 or top 16, but also like 100 other players in the Masters.
My concern is that if PP goes whole hog into supporting the competitive scene to the exclusion of everyone else, then that could be problematic to the long term growth in the game. To be honest, if they had resources kicking around, I'd rather see them put a little more of those resources into quality control on some of the models themselves. That's something that could benefit everyone, including their bottom line because customer service on miscasts can't be cheap.
As an aside, there are people in the community working on ranking systems, but I see some potential issues and am not sure it's a good idea. I believe MtG used to use an Elo style ranking system, but dropped it several years ago because they found that there were some unanticipated perverse incentives resulting in negative consequences and I can see similar consequences in WMH.
Or, maybe I'm just not a "core customer" despite having the models to play 80% of the theme lists in my faction and should be ignored.
As a person who likes owning the things I purchase: subscription models suck and I avoid them like the plague. Speaking as a consumer, why would I ever want to rent my music/games/entertainment in perpetuity when I could own it outright?
Worked for Netflix and Spotify. And back in the DnD 4.0 days, it worked for Wizards also (shut up 4.0 was awesome!). It worked for the old schoool MMOs. I mean, the business model has merit.
Are we completely sure that the most hardcore competitive players are PP's core customers? ...
Or, maybe I'm just not a "core customer" despite having the models to play 80% of the theme lists in my faction and should be ignored.
I don't think it's about who the "core" customer is, or how the "core" customer plays.
It's about what WM/H offers, what it does better than the competition, and that's balance, tight rules and a pretty engaging OP tournament package.
WM/H should double down on those strengths, since they are the pillars of why it stands out.
We have already established that other games are better for:
Small Skirmish
Narrative
Hobby
Painting
Sculpts
Conversions
Beer and Pretzel games
Cheap armies
At this point, if people are prioritizing the above they frankly should be playing those other games. But you stick with WM/H because of the tight rules and better than average balance across factions, even if you only get to play once a month like a filthy casual (which is my case, haven't played since October )
Though I wholeheartedly agree with your point of updating Sculpts and general QA.
As a person who likes owning the things I purchase: subscription models suck and I avoid them like the plague. Speaking as a consumer, why would I ever want to rent my music/games/entertainment in perpetuity when I could own it outright?
Worked for Netflix and Spotify. And back in the DnD 4.0 days, it worked for Wizards also (shut up 4.0 was awesome!). It worked for the old schoool MMOs. I mean, the business model has merit.
It works for the businesses. It sucks for the consumers.
Netflix/Spotify are different due to the sheer volume of content available. To put it another way: the value proposition is favorable in those cases.
Sure, I’d subscribe to Warmachine if I had access to fully-painted every single army and model in the game!
Are we completely sure that the most hardcore competitive players are PP's core customers? ...
Or, maybe I'm just not a "core customer" despite having the models to play 80% of the theme lists in my faction and should be ignored.
I don't think it's about who the "core" customer is, or how the "core" customer plays.
It's about what WM/H offers, what it does better than the competition, and that's balance, tight rules and a pretty engaging OP tournament package.
WM/H should double down on those strengths, since they are the pillars of why it stands out.
We have already established that other games are better for:
Small Skirmish
Narrative
Hobby
Painting
Sculpts
Conversions
Beer and Pretzel games
Cheap armies
At this point, if people are prioritizing the above they frankly should be playing those other games. But you stick with WM/H because of the tight rules and better than average balance across factions, even if you only get to play once a month like a filthy casual (which is my case, haven't played since October )
Though I wholeheartedly agree with your point of updating Sculpts and general QA.
That is my point. By trying to hit all those bullets you lose focus. And "casuals" where not plopping down $600 (probably minimum to be competitive) for Crucible Guard. Now arguably that is why we are seeing some staff changes....
An elephant in the room is the circa 2016 business model change - which again, might not have been well thought out .....
As many know the MK1 and MK2 way of releasing was about once a year to 18 months a new book would come out. Everyone got shining stuff. People bought the book because of the fluff. You then had 5-6 models to look forward to buying.
We have a very different model right now. I would love for someone to step back and take a look at releases in 2018 and determine whether there was enough "new" stuff across all the factions to keep people buying. That is the thing - you really need me to drop a few hundred dollars a year. In my personal case - I bough the AC for a decent amount back in the early Spring (Kingdom COn) but otherwise have really not made hardly any purchases of serious note (got the mystery box for fun and I think picked up a few odds and ends to replace broken models). And it looks even bleaker in 2019. I mean I will likely buy the Greylord Adjunct and Sorsha0. But since I own all the doomreavers ANYWAY, I likely am looking at under $40 in WM for the year unless Pigs get a lot of unexpected love.
This conversation is starting to feel like deja vu on this forum, but it seems evident to me that telling hobby gamers and casuals to go play something else isn't good for building community, and isn't good for PP's bottom line either.
This conversation is starting to feel like deja vu on this forum, but it seems evident to me that telling hobby gamers and casuals to go play something else isn't good for building community, and isn't good for PP's bottom line either.
It's not about telling them to go play something else, it's about letting them know that the one thing WM/H does better than anyone else is Rules and Balance, and focusing on that.
You can totally play a game like that casually. People play chess, go, poker, casually. People can play DOTA 2 casually or go full on Pro. The same can be said for Magic the Gathering, Hearthstone, etc.
Pretending like PP will produce a WM/H edition that's as inexpensive as Guild Ball, or as fluffy as 40k, or ultra casual like X-Wing is betting against WM/H's Strengths.
This conversation is starting to feel like deja vu on this forum, but it seems evident to me that telling hobby gamers and casuals to go play something else isn't good for building community, and isn't good for PP's bottom line either.
It's not about telling them to go play something else, it's about letting them know that the one thing WM/H does better than anyone else is Rules and Balance, and focusing on that.
You can totally play a game like that casually. People play chess, go, poker, casually. People can play DOTA 2 casually or go full on Pro. The same can be said for Magic the Gathering, Hearthstone, etc.
Pretending like PP will produce a WM/H edition that's as inexpensive as Guild Ball, or as fluffy as 40k, or ultra casual like X-Wing is betting against WM/H's Strengths.
So much of this is symatics so I tried to avoid using the word Casual (which I don't think adequately corresponds to it)
But if forced to
Wargamers that play Memoir 44 are casuals
Board gamers that play something like Ticket to Ride are Causal board gamers
RPG'ers that play 4th edition I would argue are casual RPG'ers
Wargamers that play Advance Squad Leader circa 1994 are not casuals
Board gamers that play Gloomhaven all the way through are not "casual"
RPG'ers that played full rule set for Pathfinder 1.0 are not "casual"
Again, it is the sheer complexity of the rule book, the fact that we have several hundred different models - many with rules that create Scholar's Mate and a relentless focus on "clean" games that bely WM/H being "casual". Look, I gave up on this when it became clear that they should be selling a laser pointer in the starters box and that at least 3/4 of players want "flat" terrain because while it looks horrible it creates a cleaner game.
And again, if you accept (replace competitive with "complex and tight") then there are things that can be done to EMBRACE that state. Two that jump to mind?
1) Give us smart terrain rules/generating systems. If people really do have to run out and buy a laser and proxy bases and widgets and measuring sticks to play "clean" they can buy enough terrain.
2) Give us a ranking system. It is SO easy. You let each player register for a unique number (hell, monetize it) and then allow, through warroom, for folks to register their games. Like any ranking system, the more you beat higher level opponents the more your scores go up. Play "down" and win and you don't move that much. Chess has been doing for decades. Ditto Tennis. THere are proven models that work.
Well, you in theory like the CID process and want PP to continue being a business. To continue to be a business, they need to make money every year.
No one said to rent models, but they clearly need a way to make more money I don't know if that means just more limited release factions, or what...
Actually, we have no evidence that Privateer is hurting for money. MonPoc seems to be going strong, Mini-crate seems to be a steady source of revenue (and the best model for the conversion of a subscription model to a physical product that I suspect we might see), and WM/H is consistently right there at the #1/#2 spot on the sales charts, if the two lines are combined. (I really don't know why they are not.)
We know they cancelled the PG program (for various reasons which most likely had little to do with the direct cost of the program), that they dropped physical magazine publishing (which is not uncommon; see Dragon and Dungeon magazines, for example) and had to retool Skull Island as part of that effort. Some people have left, yes, but we have no evidence that "PP is doing badly" is the reason. Those departures could easily be explained in other ways. (For example: Pagani has a newborn and a wife, and last I heard, Seattle costs about a zillion dollars a year to live in. Shick started at PP 10 years ago as basically the mail boy and has risen to the #2 position in that time. Where else is he going to go in the hierarchy? Matt Wilson? )
But, people naturally seem to gravitate to doom and gloom and salacious speculation, especially in the Internet echo chamber, so...something or the other?
Anyway, my point still stands: subscription = dumb, in my book. So there.
We have already established that other games are better for:
Small Skirmish
Narrative
Hobby
Painting
Sculpts
Conversions
Beer and Pretzel games
Cheap armies
Unfortunately, the situation is currently such that one can add "Competitiveness" and "Tighter rules" to the list. If unsure, please take a closer look what's in the market at the moment. Guild Ball Season 4 is, for example, an insanely well designed miniature game. Perhaps the best there has ever been. Not my personal favorite, but I can't deny its merits.
WM/H seems to fall somewhere in the middle of AoS and Guild Ball, and as a person who is not attached to things too much (for example, I've never understood music artist loyalty some people have) WM/H has little appeal anymore. Steampunk theme is keeping me somewhat in the game, but I'm struggling to find reasons to play. Not to say the army I'm playing with has been for sale for 1 year already. Nobody's buying so I'll play a game or two once in a while.. not starting a new faction before the old one is sold.
I know, from the first hand experience, that the game seems great when you're "in it", but taken at face value, WM/H is nothing special for me anymore. I can't emphasize this enough - it is the same way AoS and 40k players seem to feel when they're "in it", although if 100% honest, the games are utter garbage (I play AoS, and have no problems admitting its shortcomings).
I personally feel PP losing staff is VERY alarming. The local WM/H community seems to be very enthusiastic, but the guys are clearly "in it" so bad they almost feed from the quitters, making the remainers even stronger. The thing is, aside from the biggest fans, the game doesn't spark very much interest here anymore. It's pretty sad, and seeing the company lose key staff doesn't exactly restore any faith.
Guild Ball has its roots deep within the WMH system. It is obvious from from the rules and from the initial Guild Ball push.
I bought a starter box last year and was not disapointed, I don't know about season 4 but from the little I read it's small adjustments to rules, new players, competition stuff and some sort of story... So, not so far from it's beggining and roots.
WMH still has the best rules in the miniature market. It is a demanding game that doesn't lend itself to intermitent playing, you will lose to small rules you forget and everything on the other side will be OP and not fun. To me these are features of the game and not problems but that is not, ofc, everyone's opinion.
Other games "may be" better in some areas but does ot really matter if a game is only better in a specific area?
The strenght of PP is that perhaps its not the BEST of one area but the overall package is.
Great rules that support both "competitive" and "casual" games? Check.
Cool fluff? Maybe not the best but certainly not the worst (and even GW is currently bad...check AoS and the primaris fluff on 40k)? Check.
Cool minis? Check
The overall 2019 preview doesnt scream doom to me. Companies go through changes all the time. Rick Priestley and Andy Chambers left GW. So did Tuomas Pirinen and Alessio Cavatore. Did GW sink? Not really.
Are we completely sure that the most hardcore competitive players are PP's core customers? ...
Or, maybe I'm just not a "core customer" despite having the models to play 80% of the theme lists in my faction and should be ignored.
I don't think it's about who the "core" customer is, or how the "core" customer plays.
It's about what WM/H offers, what it does better than the competition, and that's balance, tight rules and a pretty engaging OP tournament package.
WM/H should double down on those strengths, since they are the pillars of why it stands out.
We have already established that other games are better for:
Small Skirmish
Narrative
Hobby
Painting
Sculpts
Conversions
Beer and Pretzel games
Cheap armies
At this point, if people are prioritizing the above they frankly should be playing those other games. But you stick with WM/H because of the tight rules and better than average balance across factions, even if you only get to play once a month like a filthy casual (which is my case, haven't played since October )
Though I wholeheartedly agree with your point of updating Sculpts and general QA.
don't like it, don't buy it. Worked well for EA. I'm sure its a great business plan for a much smaller company with a far more fragile bottom line.