shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Nov 17, 2018 20:40:39 GMT
I AM SIMPLY EXTREMELY IMMATURE!!!1
Keep trying. I suggest:
!!111!1!!!!1!11!!!!1
u are not the boss of me sir
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 17, 2018 22:24:18 GMT
While under a Steelhead title, maybe. However, we also see many Warcasters taken out of time for the game. The same Warcaster in the rules could be facing multiple versions of a different Warcaster, and since it doesn't require a vast change, and exiled Warcaster from one could operate under the same rules. The only issue with the Protectorate Warcaster is that they would not be a priest for some reason, hence the Idrian aspect. The issue with a mercenary Protectorate warcaster is he'd stop being a protectorate warcaster as soon as the sells out to other people, because the Protectorate would declare him an enemy of the theocracy. Maybe, maybe not. Again, a lot depends on how the setup is. Caine is not especially well liked in certain parts of Cygnar right now, but...
Alternatively, an Idrian Warcaster who has some loyalties to the Protectorate, but also worked the contract market would be useful to keeping an eye on that aspect of the world. Not quite a double agent, but not too far from that, either.
And it doesn't matter if they are an enemy if they were loyal at one point, but left at another, but otherwise did not change as a character in terms of abilities. It reduces their ability to grow from there, but there aren't many Mercenary Warcasters who have had growth versions.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Nov 17, 2018 22:39:50 GMT
Not really related to steel heads, but as far as "partisan" casters are concerned, I think the only other "faction" we can really expect a partisan to come from would probably be Crucible Guard. Other wise, loyalties are just to tight. Khador would sooner shoot and kill a warcaster then let them run free, and likewise with Protectorate... but with more fire. I might see something possible with cryx, like a caster that uses their own funding to operate outside of cryx but ultimately held allegiance to Toruk, but even that is a stretch. And it's also a no for Elves... cause Elves.
I don't think jumping timelines would work to well in this case simply because... well if you were once Protectorate, and then switched to not... you'd be dead and if you weren't in the first place... you're probably still dead. Same kind of goes for Khador, but you might have somewhat easier time. Maybe like a retired general who still wants to be nationalist with Khador but was forced into retirement or something? Actually that might be a good one for a Steel Head. I mean they'd want him even if he was a little older if he was a warcaster (on account of those are hard to come by), but Khador lets him go because he's in his twilight years. Add in that he still occasionally will get a call from the empress because if he's not gonna stay down any way he might as well serve Khador, and you have a decent shot.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 17, 2018 23:06:45 GMT
Not really related to steel heads, but as far as "partisan" casters are concerned, I think the only other "faction" we can really expect a partisan to come from would probably be Crucible Guard. Other wise, loyalties are just to tight. Khador would sooner shoot and kill a warcaster then let them run free, and likewise with Protectorate... but with more fire. I might see something possible with cryx, like a caster that uses their own funding to operate outside of cryx but ultimately held allegiance to Toruk, but even that is a stretch. And it's also a no for Elves... cause Elves. I don't think jumping timelines would work to well in this case simply because... well if you were once Protectorate, and then switched to not... you'd be dead and if you weren't in the first place... you're probably still dead. Same kind of goes for Khador, but you might have somewhat easier time. Maybe like a retired general who still wants to be nationalist with Khador but was forced into retirement or something? Actually that might be a good one for a Steel Head. I mean they'd want him even if he was a little older if he was a warcaster (on account of those are hard to come by), but Khador lets him go because he's in his twilight years. Add in that he still occasionally will get a call from the empress because if he's not gonna stay down any way he might as well serve Khador, and you have a decent shot. Khador literally employs a 100 something years old warcaster who's mangled remains are stuffed into a warjack chassis to keep him alive. "Forced into retirement" sounds not like something the motherland would do.
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Post by michael on Nov 17, 2018 23:38:18 GMT
You guys really have the fluff skewed when it comes to Khador. Seriously; Cygnar’s propaganda machine has gotten to you.
Khador is a civilized country. Once your term is up, it’s up. Warcasters can retire and are allowed to do so. They’re not going to keep any military hardware, but they are free to leave. The military might apply some social or political pressure to keep you (I could see your pension paperwork getting “misplaced” or something) but they are hardly going to force you into battle at gunpoint... But, most career military in Khador are too patriotic to retire (see: Karchev), so that’s why it’s rare.
Protectorate is about the only civilized nation that would employ fire to retain somebody, because they are nuts.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 18, 2018 0:04:05 GMT
You guys really have the fluff skewed when it comes to Khador. Seriously; Cygnar’s propaganda machine has gotten to you. Khador is a civilized country. Once your term is up, it’s up. Warcasters can retire and are allowed to do so. They’re not going to keep any military hardware, but they are free to leave. The military might apply some social or political pressure to keep you (I could see your pension paperwork getting “misplaced” or something) but they are hardly going to force you into battle at gunpoint... But, most career military in Khador are too patriotic to retire (see: Karchev), so that’s why it’s rare. Protectorate is about the only civilized nation that would employ fire to retain somebody, because they are nuts. Fair enough. I distantly remember Warcaster retirement being a topic in a thread on the PP forum and nobody seemed to get have a good idea about it too. Is there a piece of fluff that covers this particular issue? Because I think the main problem is that you kinda have to piece everything about warcaster retirement together yourself.
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Post by michael on Nov 18, 2018 1:59:26 GMT
Seacat talked about it somewhere on the old forums. Who knows where, though.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Nov 18, 2018 2:42:44 GMT
all seacat does is talk about what satyrs eat in the ik and write like one short story a month assuming teh other writer doesnt write the story. eh has a good job
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 18, 2018 3:51:34 GMT
Not really related to steel heads, but as far as "partisan" casters are concerned, I think the only other "faction" we can really expect a partisan to come from would probably be Crucible Guard. Other wise, loyalties are just to tight. Khador would sooner shoot and kill a warcaster then let them run free, and likewise with Protectorate... but with more fire. I might see something possible with cryx, like a caster that uses their own funding to operate outside of cryx but ultimately held allegiance to Toruk, but even that is a stretch. And it's also a no for Elves... cause Elves. I don't think jumping timelines would work to well in this case simply because... well if you were once Protectorate, and then switched to not... you'd be dead and if you weren't in the first place... you're probably still dead. Same kind of goes for Khador, but you might have somewhat easier time. Maybe like a retired general who still wants to be nationalist with Khador but was forced into retirement or something? Actually that might be a good one for a Steel Head. I mean they'd want him even if he was a little older if he was a warcaster (on account of those are hard to come by), but Khador lets him go because he's in his twilight years. Add in that he still occasionally will get a call from the empress because if he's not gonna stay down any way he might as well serve Khador, and you have a decent shot. Cryx Partisan would be a Cephalyx at best, in my opinion, granted knowledge on how to access the Bone and Helljack cortices. Elves would have as much difficulty as the Rhuls in running anything but their own equipment.
Two problems with Khador and Protectorate, they'd have to catch you betraying the nation, and that's assuming that you are actually betraying the nation. Remember that Blaize and Caine can't work for anyone else like Magnus does, and Cain3 is working on two different time lanes as well.
A Khadoran who doesn't have the discipline for the army, but is a good Warcaster and reasonably loyal, is a good case for a special forces type of Mercenaries Caster. Same would apply to the Idrian.
Now, a Partisan Steelhead Warcaster is much more difficult to work out. The Steelheads are a fully functioning company and organization, and while they are trusted to do the work, they wouldn't be trusted with military hardware. Taking in a traitor would lose them contracts. Taking in a known partisan Warcaster would also create difficulties that people high in the organization, like Damiano, would not tolerate for long.
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 19, 2018 0:26:50 GMT
A kayazy caster would be neat, but the problem would be how he got trained. The bratyas don't even take people who were in the winterguard, much less trained by greylords. Call me crazy but I could easily see Feora sending an idrian priest/warcaster to work the merc market for some plan of hers.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Nov 19, 2018 2:25:25 GMT
cefalix would not be cryx partysan. dey dont worship toeruk. dats requirement number1. dey arent nercomancers which is number 2
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Post by borderprince on Nov 19, 2018 10:34:54 GMT
Having had a weekend without the internet, I instead thought a little.
I think the big question for the Steelhead CID is what theme benefits will make it worth taking over Irregulars and Kingmakers?
Irregulars is great for jacks and has the Steelhead units in it (but not the non-character solos).
Kingmakers is decent for the warriors - Trenchers are a great unit with Damiano, can help with delivering the warrior units and do shooting that is often as good as the Riflemen. It can also take all of the Steelhead units and any solos (character or not).
That really does seem to limit the design space for a pure Steelheads theme. Some possibilities:
1 - Make the solos important to how the list works, and protect them - I could see "Steelhead solos gain Sacrifical Pawn [Steelhead Warrior model]". Justify it as the solos operating within units and being hard to pick out.
2 - Use the theme benefit to address some of the weaknesses to a pure Steelhead theme. Pathfinder looks like the obvious one to me (no Rupert or Saxon), so giving a benefit that addresses that issue might be helpful.
3 - More radically - fundamentally rework Stannis Brocker. As it stands, I struggle to think of a Steelhead-heavy list which doesn't benefit from Tactician, making Stannis a very strong pick. I'd be interested in him losing Tactician and just having Veteran Leader [Steelhead] instead (can always give additional buffs if you want too). Make Tactician or a similar benefit one which comes from the theme force. Stannis then becomes more optional and the theme starts to look like the stronger choice if you want to run lots of Steelheads.
4 - The easy option I hope PP don't take is to do something like Sons of the Tempest and give more free solos when taking Steelheads in their own theme than in others. So 1 free solo per 15 points. Would make it easy to get 4 free solos and have a decent battlegroup. Could even potentially get to 5 free solos.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Nov 19, 2018 12:32:18 GMT
I think there will be a rework of Irregulars tbh, it was only made as a quick fix to get everything into a theme force, and some of the Devs have expressed concern about how broad it is.
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Munindk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by Munindk on Nov 19, 2018 17:21:06 GMT
There is precedence for a warcaster from a major nation going rogue and evading capture by working as a mercenary...
Would keeping the steelhead arcanist out of irregulars be enough to make a steelhead theme interesting?
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Post by Charistoph on Nov 19, 2018 17:37:13 GMT
A kayazy caster would be neat, but the problem would be how he got trained. The bratyas don't even take people who were in the winterguard, much less trained by greylords. Call me crazy but I could easily see Feora sending an idrian priest/warcaster to work the merc market for some plan of hers. Look at it from the other way around. The Bratyas were the ones who found the Warcaster and "rent" them out to the military for certain contracts.
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