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Post by anderfreak on Nov 9, 2018 22:14:47 GMT
I think marauders are always worth considering if you need to save points or are expecting to play into a lot of huge bases. Their output is similar enough to the juggernauts with flank calculated in, except against huge bases where the marauder just outclasses the juggs. The juggernaut does more damage to heavies, but flank is still usually enough for P+S 16 to do the job especially if the flanking model has already chipped away at it. I think it was 32.5 damage against ARM 20 for the marauder and the juggs at 43 damage against ARM 20, against ARM 20 huge bases the marauder is 50 damage and the juggernaut is still 43. The juggs gives you a good margin of error against heavies, but downgrading still gives you a very competent beatstick and some wiggle room on points. Makes sense, but I think it makes more sense to compare the output of the Marauder to Sorschas favourite jacks, which incidentally are not the Juggs but Kodiaks and Ragers, because they all get more milage out of Flank to to their number of initials. If we're talking about a single ARM 20 heavy as a target, the Kodiak, on average, ends up doing 35 damage across its 6 attacks and the Rager does 31, which is extremely respectable considering he's only 10 pts. Now against multiple targets, the kodiak can smash a heavy to death and still have its vent steam to clear a mob which none of the others can do. The marauder can pretty trivially remove some of the tankiest battle engines and bring colossals to deaths door, and the juggernaut is just an absolute monster of course. I think the main takeaway is that Sorscha3 makes all our warjacks sing, because they still play the role they've traditionally played in other lists but she can also allow even our weakest jacks trade above their weight class, assuming we position our MoW's well.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 9, 2018 22:20:34 GMT
Makes sense, but I think it makes more sense to compare the output of the Marauder to Sorschas favourite jacks, which incidentally are not the Juggs but Kodiaks and Ragers, because they all get more milage out of Flank to to their number of initials. If we're talking about a single ARM 20 heavy as a target, the Kodiak, on average, ends up doing 35 damage across its 6 attacks and the Rager does 31, which is extremely respectable considering he's only 10 pts. Now against multiple targets, the kodiak can smash a heavy to death and still have its vent steam to clear a mob which none of the others can do. The marauder can pretty trivially remove some of the tankiest battle engines and bring colossals to deaths door, and the juggernaut is just an absolute monster of course. I think the main takeaway is that Sorscha3 makes all our warjacks sing, because they still play the role they've traditionally played in other lists but she can also allow even our weakest jacks trade above their weight class, assuming we position our MoW's well. That sounds extremely impressive, I think I like our Woman-o-War even more now.
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Post by auraco on Nov 10, 2018 1:52:32 GMT
She does have a more active battlegroup in armored corps than any other of our caster. It’s part of what makes her a compelling choice.
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Post by borderprince on Nov 10, 2018 6:00:16 GMT
She does have a more active battlegroup in armored corps than any other of our caster. It’s part of what makes her a compelling choice. She's one of our better combined arms casters (and fairly obviously designed as such). Probably the best in Armored Corps, but Vlad1, Butcher1, Butcher3, Malakov1 and Kozlov all tend to work best, at least in my experience, with a good mix of jacks + warriors. Kozlov also does it well in Armored Corps, but with less offensive power for the jacks.
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Post by auraco on Nov 10, 2018 18:35:32 GMT
Not sure I agree with that list, Butcher1's jacks are slow and tend to lag behind the rest of the armored corps list, I would take ruin and one more jack but I don't think it's worth taking a third jack with him. Butcher3 is an odd case, his jacks wont lag as far behind the rest of the army as with Butcher1 thanks to energizer, but I still think it's not really worth it to take more than Ruin + one other jack with him in armored corps. In winterguard kommand I would tend to agree that he wants 3 jacks, but that theme is a very different animal and the advance moves on the jacks makes for a pretty big difference. Can't really say about Malakov2 since I haven't played him in armored corps yet. Kozlov sounds like a min battlegroup guy to me though, he has too many upkeeps to really be able to allocate to jacks and having a spd buff only on his feat turn makes his battlegroup painfully slow, he also doesn't have access to the relatively quick Ruin that plays well with Butcher1. That lack of spd buff on non feat turn also means the jacks will lag behind the rest of the army, something that isn't a problem for sorscha3 thanks to stoke the fire being a spd buff and not a movement buff. Vlad1 I can see though, he has a good amount of jack points and both his feat and boundless charge means he can maintain a relatively quick battlegroup during the game.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 10, 2018 18:41:16 GMT
Malakov to me seems to be the type of guy that would just run a Conquest so he doesn't need to bother and has something huge to hide behind. Creeping Barrage and Covering Fire template can be really sweet I'd wager.
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Post by auraco on Nov 10, 2018 19:33:12 GMT
I'd be more tempted to play him with a victor, Open fire is an interesting spell for it.
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Post by jonnyboy on Nov 10, 2018 23:26:48 GMT
Have we considered not taking Demo+Dragos? Why are we taking them with Sorscha3?
I will be the first to say that with V2 demo corps are a insane ball of death you can hurl across the board. With S3 much less so. Demo fill the roll of armor cracking, i hope we all agree here. Sorscha is bringing 3-4 jacks, I think that's plenty of armor cracking.
For the most part shock troopers are going to outshine demo corps with S3. Sure, freezing a model with S3 and getting some PS 16 weapon masters is cute. But, S3 does that without having to freeze a single model, flank. Shock troopers are going to contest better, kill warriors better, survive longer for flank, and a better overall utility piece.
I'm a fan of the triple kodiak. But i also think one could be enough and marauders bring way better value. I left this list open for either 2 more kodiaks or a solo/mechanics. Not sure what would be best.
War Room Army
Khador - 03 - ACS3
Theme: Armored Corps 3 / 3 Free Cards 71 / 75 Army
Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff - WJ: +28 - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker - PC: 4 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4)
Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 5 Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 5 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Kovnik - PC: 4
Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 0 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4 Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard - Arconovich & Standard Bearer: 7 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
THEME: Armored Corps ---
GENERATED : 11/10/2018 18:26:39 BUILD ID : 2069.18-10-06
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 11, 2018 1:38:41 GMT
Have we considered not taking Demo+Dragos? Why are we taking them with Sorscha3? I will be the first to say that with V2 demo corps are a insane ball of death you can hurl across the board. With S3 much less so. Demo fill the roll of armor cracking, i hope we all agree here. Sorscha is bringing 3-4 jacks, I think that's plenty of armor cracking. For the most part shock troopers are going to outshine demo corps with S3. Sure, freezing a model with S3 and getting some PS 16 weapon masters is cute. But, S3 does that without having to freeze a single model, flank. Shock troopers are going to contest better, kill warriors better, survive longer for flank, and a better overall utility piece. I'm a fan of the triple kodiak. But i also think one could be enough and marauders bring way better value. I left this list open for either 2 more kodiaks or a solo/mechanics. Not sure what would be best. War Room Army Khador - 03 - ACS3 Theme: Armored Corps 3 / 3 Free Cards 71 / 75 Army Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff - WJ: +28 - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker - PC: 4 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 5 Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 5 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Kovnik - PC: 4 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 0 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4 Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard - Arconovich & Standard Bearer: 7 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 THEME: Armored Corps --- GENERATED : 11/10/2018 18:26:39 BUILD ID : 2069.18-10-06 I'd like to add that Demo Corps are great with Malakov, too. But i tend to agree. All Sorscha does for Demos is freezing models and put Iron Flesh on them. And freeze + shatter can be cute, but is not a viable way to break arm since huge bases can't be made stationary. Also Northkin will be a pain.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 11, 2018 16:59:47 GMT
I actually like Kozlov but my go-to BG with him is simply 2x Destroyers, done. It's exactly even with his 28 warjack points. He needs either Armored Korps or Legion of Steel to shine. Pikes lack ranged support and MOW can still use some help with that depending on the list so why not get that from the jacks? If both Destroyers are in good positions and Koz is reasonably safe he can drop Chosen Ground, yet Pathfinder on the first two turns can help them get there. They have good range and don't necessarily need to move much. That also helps them aim more often. Lastly, they rarely need extra focus, which helps him a lot, but their axes hit hard enough to make casting Fury on one and topping it off effective if need be.
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Post by borderprince on Nov 11, 2018 18:52:50 GMT
I actually like Kozlov but my go-to BG with him is simply 2x Destroyers, done. It's exactly even with his 28 warjack points...They have good range and don't necessarily need to move much. That also helps them aim more often. Lastly, they rarely need extra focus, which helps him a lot, but their axes hit hard enough to make casting Fury on one and topping it off effective if need be. Don't disagree with any of that, although I still preferred a 3 jack BG with him. When I ran him with Destroyers (still deciding whether I prefer those or using MoW Bombardiers), I also had a Marauder. Those 3 + Ragman still leaves 60 points for MoW, which is nice.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 12, 2018 4:02:13 GMT
I actually like Kozlov but my go-to BG with him is simply 2x Destroyers, done. It's exactly even with his 28 warjack points...They have good range and don't necessarily need to move much. That also helps them aim more often. Lastly, they rarely need extra focus, which helps him a lot, but their axes hit hard enough to make casting Fury on one and topping it off effective if need be. Don't disagree with any of that, although I still preferred a 3 jack BG with him. When I ran him with Destroyers (still deciding whether I prefer those or using MoW Bombardiers), I also had a Marauder. Those 3 + Ragman still leaves 60 points for MoW, which is nice. That's a good call, especially with all the 2-inch melee.
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Post by anderfreak on Nov 12, 2018 20:29:24 GMT
Have we considered not taking Demo+Dragos? Why are we taking them with Sorscha3? I will be the first to say that with V2 demo corps are a insane ball of death you can hurl across the board. With S3 much less so. Demo fill the roll of armor cracking, i hope we all agree here. Sorscha is bringing 3-4 jacks, I think that's plenty of armor cracking. For the most part shock troopers are going to outshine demo corps with S3. Sure, freezing a model with S3 and getting some PS 16 weapon masters is cute. But, S3 does that without having to freeze a single model, flank. Shock troopers are going to contest better, kill warriors better, survive longer for flank, and a better overall utility piece. I'm a fan of the triple kodiak. But i also think one could be enough and marauders bring way better value. I left this list open for either 2 more kodiaks or a solo/mechanics. Not sure what would be best. War Room Army Khador - 03 - ACS3 Theme: Armored Corps 3 / 3 Free Cards 71 / 75 Army Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff - WJ: +28 - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker - PC: 4 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 5 Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 5 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Kovnik - PC: 4 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 0 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4 Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard - Arconovich & Standard Bearer: 7 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 THEME: Armored Corps --- GENERATED : 11/10/2018 18:26:39 BUILD ID : 2069.18-10-06 Hmm, I think I'm going to go rebuild my list from scratch dropping my demo corp and instead using two drakhuns and some kodiaks for a fast alpha strike with flank... it sounds super fun, but I haven't actually done any math on their movement and it's probably too many eggs in one basket =P
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 12, 2018 23:11:36 GMT
Have we considered not taking Demo+Dragos? Why are we taking them with Sorscha3? I will be the first to say that with V2 demo corps are a insane ball of death you can hurl across the board. With S3 much less so. Demo fill the roll of armor cracking, i hope we all agree here. Sorscha is bringing 3-4 jacks, I think that's plenty of armor cracking. For the most part shock troopers are going to outshine demo corps with S3. Sure, freezing a model with S3 and getting some PS 16 weapon masters is cute. But, S3 does that without having to freeze a single model, flank. Shock troopers are going to contest better, kill warriors better, survive longer for flank, and a better overall utility piece. I'm a fan of the triple kodiak. But i also think one could be enough and marauders bring way better value. I left this list open for either 2 more kodiaks or a solo/mechanics. Not sure what would be best. War Room Army Khador - 03 - ACS3 Theme: Armored Corps 3 / 3 Free Cards 71 / 75 Army Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff - WJ: +28 - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker - PC: 4 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 5 Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 5 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Kovnik - PC: 4 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 0 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4 Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard - Arconovich & Standard Bearer: 7 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 THEME: Armored Corps --- GENERATED : 11/10/2018 18:26:39 BUILD ID : 2069.18-10-06 Hmm, I think I'm going to go rebuild my list from scratch dropping my demo corp and instead using two drakhuns and some kodiaks for a fast alpha strike with flank... it sounds super fun, but I haven't actually done any math on their movement and it's probably too many eggs in one basket =P Something like this maybe? Sorscha3 -Beast-09 -Kodiak -Berserker -Forge Seer -Drakhun x2 -Kovnik -Supression Tanker x2 -Battle Mechaniks (min] x3 -Atanas -Shocktroopers (max) -Saxon/Ragman/Sylys Battlegroup could be 3 Kodiaks, Forge Seer could be any other solo.
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Post by auraco on Nov 13, 2018 0:26:57 GMT
I’m not a big fan of the demo corps, but having a way to freeze something and iron flesh is actually as good as it gets for supporting them.
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