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Post by Gamingdevil on Nov 8, 2018 13:26:01 GMT
It's been a little quiet here lately, so I'll throw this into the group with the intent of sparking some discussion After the WTC I wanted to dive into Slaughter Fleet Raiders and I've always had a soft spot for Skarre 2 and the Kraken because Death Ward, Black Spot and a basically immune feat is exactly what the Kraken needs. Gang Fighter is a great addition to this as MAT 6, POW 19 is quite sad, while MAT 8, POW 21 is respectable. DEF 15, ARM 21 unchargeable Kraken that chooses columns for damage is also not bad at all. I've settled on this list: conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0V0I1ac3kpkr2Ikq9ukjkg1_kkkoCryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Slaughter Fleet Raiders [Skarre 2] Skarre, Queen of the Broken Coast [+26] - Defiler [8] - Kraken [36] - Satyxis Blood Priestess [4] Axiara Wraithblade [0(6)] General Gerlak Slaughterborn [0(6)] Misery Cage [2] Ragman [4] Black Ogrun Ironmongers [6] Blighted Trollkin Marauders (max) [15] Bloodgorgers (max) [15] - Jussika Bloodtongue [5] Scharde Dirge Seers [6] So, the list is mostly about enabling the Kraken and exploiting DEF. Dirge Seers can hand out Guidance to both Skarre and the Kraken, form a cloud wall to protect the squishy emo caster or mix it up in melee with auto wounds. I'm usually not afraid to play them aggressively. Ironmongers let me laugh at DEF skews and take chip damage off the Kraken (sometimes I'm forced to take a pre-feat alpha if my threat range is too low. Ragman is the only damage buff in the list, bar Gang Fighter. Bloodgorgers are excellent infantry blenders while the Marauders are great at softening up targets or swarming around the Kraken, to boost the DEF skew. Both being medium bases, means they are good at jamming and/or screening. If I can spare Death Ward for them they are quite resilient against shooting. The choice of 10-man units is made to have more bodies available for Gang Fighter. Misery Cage and Blood Priestess both help Skarre's efficiency, so she's not cutting too deep (pun intended). The Blood Priestess is another layer of defense for the squishy emo girl as well. The Defiler is there because I need at least one arc node and had enough points to make it into a spray, which is quite nice if I already have Black Spot up. This model usually takes Admonition until I need it on Skarre. Axiara is Axiara and Gerlak is Gerlak, though I need to learn to use both of them more efficiently as they often lag behind while not exploiting enough of their own combat abilities. Veteran Leader and the only Grievous Wounds in the list make Gerlak invaluable and Axiara handing out Reposition or Dodge to Skarre, Dodge or Prowl to the Marauders or Dirge Seers are great, not to mention Tactician. It's rather important that I feat after I alpha, because without that double alpha, the Kraken doesn't get enough time to do things. Nonetheless, the list can struggle into ARM or box spam, especially if there's more than the Kraken can handle alone, as the rest is not great at cracking durable models. It also really suffers if my opponent can deal with the Kraken efficiently. I've played it to success in a lot of combined arms lists, but even Armored Corps, that should be doable with such a low model count, can go wrong if the Kraken fails a few crucial rolls. I'm quite sure that it's partly because I'm not playing the list to its full potential. Despite that I love the list as it has a lot of options and answers many questions. So, my question is if anyone would have thoughts or suggestions on how to play the list more efficiently and/or deal with the ARM cracking problem better while retaining the feel of the list. Maybe I have too much points tied up into Kraken support? I'm actually not 100% sure that opposing durability needs to be a problem as long as I deal with it efficiently, which is also something I need to work on. For instance, I played against a beast heavy opponent that also brought a gargantuan, but with all the tough medium bases I can jam it for days and not worry about it until I'm ready. The Dirge Seers do enough by themselves to justify them regardless, but I'm not sure about the six points in the Ironmongers. Though in a pinch they can take half out of a heavy to unjam the Kraken, but then they need to be played more aggressively. I also think the repair option is really good so I am better able to take an alpha on the chin while staying at max functionality afterwards (just need to make sure I keep cortex) It would also help if the rest of the list was better at cracking hard targets, but I don't think that's really available in SFR, especially while keeping a respectable model count? Maybe it's a question of finding the right pair to scare away the bad matchups? What would those be, apart from ARM/boxes? TL;DR: thoughts on the list and how to play it? EDIT: wow, my 1000th post, the sky finally fell.
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Post by tiberius on Nov 9, 2018 11:23:40 GMT
With the Kraken being your only big gun, I think you do need at least one jamming screen (which you have 2 good ones) and repair options, which you have. I personally love the iron mongers because they bring a lot more than just repair, which is something the kraken needs. It also really likes the accuracy from curse because MAT 6 just isn't going to help it enough. Gang fighter is great but you may not always be able to get a warrior model onto what you are trying to kill and that +2 to hit will be the difference.
I have had difficulties into jack spam with similar lists but with enough bodies jamming, I find I can eventually get to my assassination target if I can keep the kraken alive. I find ragman is often not necessary to get the kraken to kill something especially if you have gang fighter. Ragman may be better off running behind the blood gorgers and giving them a bit of an extra boost, especially if you are going up against multi-wound infantry.
Unless they are bringing a lot of grievous wounds its going to be really annoying to remove your main force. That many tough bodies, while you cant rely on it, can really turn the tide if you get some hot rolls. No sleeping on the job keeps them going.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Nov 9, 2018 18:54:59 GMT
I was happy to see a new post here finally, it’s been a while... With regard to your list, it looks really great! Recently because of challenger I’ve gotten into the Kraken as well, and have been messing around with my own take of it. Your list is pretty different from his, obviously because of the different version of Skarre you are running, and as a side note, I thinks it’s very cool that essentially the same list can feel so different just by changing casters. Once I get myself mobilized better, I’ll post up my version, but for now, I have a couple of questions. 1. Maybe because I play a lot of Menoth, but how would you be able to deal with the very present ranged threats that exist out there, specifically the Judicator, but there are a lot of very hard ranged threats out there, that even with Def 15, the Kraken can be destroyed. I mean with Double HOF and Battle, the judicator is like 14 damage per boosted damage roll, I guess it would need to Boost 2 hits, so really it would do 14 and 9, not counting extra chips from the spiking the scatters. 2. Why bloodgorgers vs 2 units of marauders? I was facing this choice as well and leaned toward the Marauders because extra options with range attacks, but the melee is still there, but I was curious about your thoughts. Between corpses, gang and Ragman, you have a lot of options to drop ARM, and in a perfect storm, could really swing something. I think the challenge would be to keep things aggressive enough that you can pull off the layering benefits of the list without needlessly sacrificing the solos etc that you are trying to use. This Might already be obvious to everyone else, but with regard to the iron mongers, I realized that I could extend the threat of the curse by charging them at some distant model, and then cursing my ultimate target with the extra distance I gained from the charge. Again, it might be a “duh” for everyone else, but I was pleased when I discovered that. Let us know how your games go please. Grats on The Sky Fell!
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Nov 9, 2018 23:11:31 GMT
I've played Skarre2 quite a lot with a Kraken in MKII, and a little bit in MKIII. One thing I always found was that she struggles to fuel it herself, so stick the Kraken on Aiakos. This has the added benefit of making him SPD 7, which is genuinely hilarious.
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Post by gedditoffme on Nov 10, 2018 3:33:02 GMT
I've played Skarre2 quite a lot with a Kraken in MKII, and a little bit in MKIII. One thing I always found was that she struggles to fuel it herself, so stick the Kraken on Aiakos. This has the added benefit of making him SPD 7, which is genuinely hilarious. That's pretty cool! Misses out on future sight which would hurt a bit, and comes with the usual issues of high value colossal on journeyman caster, but that Spd buff & grievous potential could be big.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Nov 10, 2018 10:29:31 GMT
The problem I would see with that though, is you’d be losing out on like 14pts of other models. You could drop Gerlak and the Bloodgorgers, or a combination of Ragman and some other things, but it starts to very much impact the options of the army.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Nov 10, 2018 18:29:39 GMT
it does mean you're pretty battlegroup-heavy, but Skarre's feat kinda likes that anyway. Still, you cann afoord to be battlegroup-heavy when you have an eyeless-sight kraken with Black spot to chew through enemy weaponmasters. there's very little quite as hilarious as shooting 5 unicorn-cannon shots in one turn, and thanks to the feat skarre can pretty easily load up corpses on it without it immediately dying. Honestly, the more I talk about it the more I want to play it. The benefits of gang-fighter make it so tempting... I just need to decide what else goes in the battlegroup since I can't take DJ. 'node, Inflictor and
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Nov 10, 2018 18:38:44 GMT
I’ve been playing a very similar style Kraken list only under Skarre3 instead of Skarre2. Gang Fighter turns the Kraken into a Melee monster.
Cryx - Boaty McBoatface
Theme: Slaughter Fleet Raiders 3 / 3 Free Cards 74 / 75 Army
Stockpile - Steamroller Objective
Skarre, Admiral of the Black Fleet - WJ: +27 - Satyxis Blood Priestess - PC: 4 - Kraken - PC: 36 (Battlegroup Points Used: 27)
Axiara Wraithblade - PC: 0 General Gerlak Slaughterborn - PC: 0
Scharde Dirge Seers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 6 Black Ogrun Ironmongers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 6 Cephalyx Overlords - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8 Black Ogrun Boarding Party - Leader & 4 Grunts: 11 Blighted Trollkin Marauders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 Bloodgorgers - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Jussika Bloodtongue - PC: 0
So far my game plan has been to jam hard with the Bloodgorgers while the Kraken, Marauders, Cephalyx, Gerlak, & Boarding Party do most of the killing. I typically deploy Bloodgorgers on one flank & the Kraken on the other & focus on winning the side of the board the Kraken is on extremely hard while the Bloodgorgers do their best job dying as slowly as possible. Marauders & Boarding Party body block for the Kraken so models can’t get charges off on it, & trigger Gang Fighter when it’s time to send the big guy into Melee.
I would never consider cutting the Iron Mongers when running a Kraken list. Realistically with all the medium based tough models in the way, the only way to reliably kill the Kraken is to shoot it off the table, and while many shooting lists will struggle to one round a Kraken they can easily kill one with 2-3 rounds of shooting. That’s where the Iron Mongers shine, because the extra 6-12 health/Turn can be the difference. For example a Judicator with Battle & Eye of Menoth is at dice -2 against a Kraken. Assuming you stay out of Flamethrower range and only eat the rocket pod shots it’ll deal an average of 22 damage to the Kraken each turn with 2 boosted damage shots, killing you in 3 turns on average assuming it has no help. Iron Monger healing can easly be the deciding factor in whether it takes 3 turns to kill the Kraken or 4, which in turn could be the difference between Judi killing the Kraken vs the Kraken killing Judi.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Nov 10, 2018 19:24:19 GMT
So here’s my Skarre2 variant:
War Room Army
Cryx - Skarre2 slaughter
Theme: Slaughter Fleet Raiders 1 / 1 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Skarre, Queen of the Broken Coast - WJ: +26 - Nightwretch - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Inflictor - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Nightwretch - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6)
Aiakos, Scourge of the Meredius - PC: 4 - Kraken - PC: 36 Axiara Wraithblade - PC: 0 Misery Cage - PC: 2
Black Ogrun Ironmongers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 6 Scharde Dirge Seers - Leader & 2 Grunts: 6 Blighted Trollkin Marauders - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Jussika Bloodtongue - PC: 5
THEME: Slaughter Fleet Raiders ---
GENERATED : 11/10/2018 19:11:48 BUILD ID : 2069.18-10-06
It’s light on bodies, as expected, but it will eat through infantry like crazy. Keeping the Kraken alive is not trivial, but thanks to Skarre’s feat you have a time-walk to work with.
Looks like fun to me, although only 6 points from themes does sting a bit
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Nov 10, 2018 22:23:47 GMT
If I were to go the Skarre2 route I’d probably start with: conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0V0I19c3kpkrkjkgkkkokmknCryx Army - 65 / 75 points [Theme] Slaughter Fleet Raiders [Skarre 2] Skarre, Queen of the Broken Coast [+26] - Deathripper [6] - Kraken [36] - Satyxis Blood Priestess [4] Axiara Wraithblade [0(6)] Black Ogrun Ironmongers [6] Blighted Trollkin Marauders (max) [15] - Jussika Bloodtongue [0(5)] Scharde Dirge Seers [6] Scharde Pirates (max) [14] - Scharde Pirate Officer [4] Skarre2 is the only Caster where I think Sharde Pirates will outperform the Trolls/Ogrun in the anti-infantry department. Black Spot is crazy good with Sprays. The last 10 points I’m not sold on what to do with. Can upgrade the Node, grab some Solos, or grab a min Unit. I’d definitely look into testing Sharde Pirates with Skarre2 over Bloodgorgers/Gerlak because theoretically they should be able to smash infantry significantly harder than the Gorgers with Black Spot.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Nov 12, 2018 7:47:21 GMT
Hey, thanks for all the replies. Growl: That's actually relatively mild shooting and like Deller says, that's precisely why the Iron Mongers are there. In combination with Death Ward, they can keep the Kraken fighting fit for quite a while. The Bloodgorger/Marauder combo is actually for 2 reasons: 1. I only have 1 of each and 2. I feel a lot less bad about running Bloodgorgers to support the Kraken compared to Marauders who can do a lot more on the approach. unded: I really don't think putting the Kraken on Aiakos is worth it for multiple reasons. You lose out on Future Sight, which is one of the best things for it, you need to play Aiakos further up if you want to keep feeding focus to the Kraken and he can die easily, costing you 40 points, and you can't use BG points for it, which eats way too much into the points used on infantry. That list you posted has a hard time keeping Gang Figther triggers alive I fear. Deller: thanks for laying out your tactics, it should play pretty similar, although Skarre 2 can probably be more aggressive courtesy of her feat. I agree that Scharde Pirates should be pretty good, but I'm quite sure that Black Spot will only generate a melee attacks when you Assault, because Assault does not allow you to make additional ranged attacks and your initials have to be melee since you charged. On top of that, I was already kind of invested in the Trollkin boat so thought I might as well go all the way, also because the points seem to work out better for me. Tough medium based models with No Sleeping on the Job are also excellent jammer. It might be worth giving a shot though. I do suggest getting at least one Misery Cage as the extra focus really helps her out.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Nov 12, 2018 9:56:47 GMT
So a lot of what you've worried about isn't really a problem in practice:
- In over 30 games with a Kraken on Aiakos, I've never yet lost Aiakos before the kraken died. between stealth and their respective kits, he's surprisingly difficult to scalpel out. - Future sight is a bit of a loss, but Aiakos more than makes up for that by bringing the focus to power the kraken which Skarre just can't afford. If she throws out Black Spot and feeds the Kraken 2, she's just blown 4 out of her 7 FOC. She often wants to upkeep the hard way, since cutting herself constantly for upkeeps is really rough now that she has no way to heal in MKIII. FOCUS efficiency is a real problem for Skarre - Gang fighter triggers will die fairly easily. If the enemy focuses on that task, he will succeed. That's not really a train smash imo - you should still be able to use the dirge seers or the ironmongers if you really need them, and if they have enough shooting to murder most of your infantry, then they're bringing enough infantry for a black spot party so go wild. - The points I absolutely agree with you on. It's a really rough points hit to have 40 points that do not count towards free points, which imo is the weakest part of the idea.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Nov 12, 2018 10:12:30 GMT
So a lot of what you've worried about isn't really a problem in practice: - In over 30 games with a Kraken on Aiakos, I've never yet lost Aiakos before the kraken died. between stealth and their respective kits, he's surprisingly difficult to scalpel out. - Future sight is a bit of a loss, but Aiakos more than makes up for that by bringing the focus to power the kraken which Skarre just can't afford. If she throws out Black Spot and feeds the Kraken 2, she's just blown 4 out of her 7 FOC. She often wants to upkeep the hard way, since cutting herself constantly for upkeeps is really rough now that she has no way to heal in MKIII. FOCUS efficiency is a real problem for Skarre - Gang fighter triggers will die fairly easily. If the enemy focuses on that task, he will succeed. That's not really a train smash imo - you should still be able to use the dirge seers or the ironmongers if you really need them, and if they have enough shooting to murder most of your infantry, then they're bringing enough infantry for a black spot party so go wild. - The points I absolutely agree with you on. It's a really rough points hit to have 40 points that do not count towards free points, which imo is the weakest part of the idea. - I agree, but having to be within 8 to feed the Kraken or to grant him Grievous Wounds is a pickle. Many lists will struggle to kill him, but some will do it trivially and the Kraken isn't very effective if Aiakos has to cower in the deployment zone.
- In my games I haven't found this to be much of a problem to be honest. Some turns you can afford to use corpses, some turns it doesn't need full focus. I always cut for upkeeps, as you can always decide to use focus to heal it back and between the free upkeep from the Blood Priestess and a focus from a Misery Cage, it's actually not that bad. I see where you're coming from though, but it's also worth noting that she still has to have jacks in her BG when the Kraken is on Aiakos and those need feeding too.
- It's true, but the more there are, the harder it is to kill all of them.
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