Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Nov 29, 2018 16:15:59 GMT
I can defend this proposal, too! Been putting a lot of thought into the Vanquisher and the Reckoner and have separate ideas for each. I want to see the Vanquisher get role definition and the Reckoner gain his flexibility back. I could be happy with the Vanquisher at 15, but would still struggle to fit it in most lists given its abilities. 14 makes it an ideal candidate for 28 WJP 'casters. At 15, I would want to see buffs.
-At 14", the Vanquisher has one of the shortest ranged threats in the game for a single shot gun. This is notable in a faction with only three (technically) speed buffs for non-charging Warjacks: Amon's Mobility, Kreoss3's Assail, and Thyra's Feat.
-The gun itself is quite good, but is Fire typed damage, so several things are immune to it straight out. More, other things are immune to CE: Fire, such as Trolls under the Krielstone or Crucible Guard 'jacks.
-The Vanquisher's melee is fairly low for a Protectorate heavy: one MAT 6 P+S 16 attack. Thresher is a rule that is better on paper than in play, especially if you are using it to clear your 'jack off from jamming elements as you often risk hitting your own things. Chain Weapon is appreciated, but is highly matchup specific.
-The Vanquisher's low volume of fire and short range leave it wanting for targets. It has to sacrifice ranged/spell defense for the offensive power that makes it relevant. The design for the 'jack seems to have been something that nukes single wound infantry, who run to jam it up only for it to then Thresher them off. In reality, what happens is that single wound infantry spread and then it is either gunned down in reprisal or charged by something with a threat range longer than 10". In this game, there are many things that have, or can get, that. And at DEF 10 ARM 19 32 wounds, it's not terribly hard to cripple beyond use or outright destroy.
-It is highly vulnerable to Shield Guard, which the Reckoner is too though the Reckoner is arguably moreso because at least your opponent has to consider the relevant position of their Shield Guard for the Vanquisher.
At 14, I think it would be a serviceable, flexible Warjack that will see table time. Ultimately, though, I don't know if that's enough to see it taken with any regularity. Its gun lacks oomph into medium based ARM/wound spam and it puts itself at risk whenever it shoots at anything beyond the most forward model. I would also be open to (and prefer) 15 points and it gains Reload(1). That gives it a perfectly defined role: short ranged carpet bomber. At that point, the design vision is likely to be achieved, as players will need to answer it quickly. I am adamant on Reload over a ROF bump because I want it to have little focus to boost. Its design at that point would be volume fire and it will need investment to get two boosted damage rolls.
The Reckoner suffers similarly, but at least is considerable in some lists. Its gun is decent, but is a single shot non AOE gun in a game where every faction has almost trivial access to Shield Guard. The proliferation of Shield Guard is okay, and we are certainly the beneficiaries of it (maybe moreso than any faction save Convergence), but it disproportionately impacts our ranged game, as our 'jacks have ish volumes of accurate fire. Its melee is also decent, as P+S 19 with Choir does not suck. And a native melee threat of 10" is great, too! Add on Ashen Veil, Immunity: Fire, and Flare and it's a decent package all around.
And that's its problem: it's a decent all-rounder that's slightly too expensive in a game that rewards specialization and defined roles.
I believe there's game space for an all-rounder workhorse, but any piece that is in this role needs to be pretty effective with its abilities in order to make that work. My proposal is that the Reckoner be reduced to 15 points and regain Assault. This gives it some more melee oopmh and highlights its role as a flexible battlefield piece that can snipe high priority targets and mix it up in melee better than average, but not as great or as affordably as a piece specialized to do so. I considered Dual Attack, but that's a rule the Protectorate has never had and I don't see us getting it. Besides, I think Assault suits us better.
Off-topic for Reznik2, sure, but 'jack buffs benefit him greatly as he loves his Warjacks. And Curse would help the ranged game of these guys, opening up new potential builds for him. Right now I'm fairly dour on the idea of a ranged heavy Reznik2 that isn't Repenter spam just because of how expensive and lackluster our heavy ranged options are.
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Post by paradox on Nov 29, 2018 16:20:40 GMT
Thanks all, very useful. I'm curious though, with CiDs, warriors models are coming back into prominence: Wouldn't the same argument for Corbeau extend to our other casters as well? I understand that Rez2 has a huge a** and needs more protection, but Corbeau (whether combined with a Warder or otherwise) would allow some of our beefier casters to play upfield. E.g. Durst, Rez1, Feora3, Kreoss3. I haven't played Rez2 since the beginning of MKIII hence am genuinely curious. Is it because giving up the hierophant is just too much for them? It's a combination of a few things. For one, Reznik2 has a good answer to many guns natively, whereas other 'casters do not. Second, Madelyn enables a bunch of game plays for Reznik2 that the Hierophant does not. Reznik2's Feat, Curse, Lamentation, and The Flesh Is Weak all benefit from being midfield more than backfield. Mainly, though, Reznik2 helps get around the traditional way of dealing with Ms. Corbeau: flooding her with shots until Sucker! goes down or getting a cagey spell on her and nuking her. His huge base is a major factor in keeping her alive because of how many attacks you can prevent through effective LoS blocking. There is an argument for other 'casters getting busy, but for all of them I'd pretty much mandate a Warder, as it's harder to screen to her. Also, she needs to play further upfield given the lower board space taken up by smaller bases, putting her at more risk. A huge base is more than three times the size of a large base. It goes a long way to keeping this combo alive. For the others that you mention: -Reznik1 isn't really a front-line 'caster. He tends to spend his load dealing with something and has a very static, predictable threat range. He has no serious abilities that key off being closer to the front. -There's an okay argument for Durst, but again he tends to play more back-midline and blows everything to deal with something serious. And he really can use the focus support. -Feora3 could benefit from Madelyn, but her weakness is getting shot in the face after blowing her stack, or just shot in general if she moves up. I can see an argument in FM with the Initiates now, however. -Kreoss3 could benefit from Madelyn more than all the others and probably is second to Reznik2 in the faction for it. He has incredible personal threat and can usually camp decently after personally deleting a heavy. He also has an incentive to get close for game closing through Force Hammer, should you not take a node. Having Maddy could enable more aggressive plays with him against some lists. Just be careful not to dust Ms. Corbeau while charging in. I think another reason is Reznik’s kit. Upkeep Lamentation and Death March. Curse helps fix accuracy in some cases, sparing allocation. A wrack or two gives you 8 focus to play with when needed. Immunity to warrior models in melee is a big deal for positioning, and shield guards help vs magic guns, where a focus stops non-magic. That leaves spells and non-warrior models. A devout helps vs non-caster spells, and so can Covenant in themes. You tune your list to delete threats to Reznik, ala Terminus style of play. So if your base plan is upkeep 2, and at least one, and play safe until threats are handled, you have 4-5 focus to allocate or camp extra, or toss into Boundless Charges, or opportunistic Flesh is Weak. You can probably live without the focus help, and speed + repo help make up for the loss of range buffing. Plus, theres something psychological about Reznik’s huge base hovering out there at the edge of threat, pushing that damned Lamentation bubble, that makes people want to take poor-odds runs at him. Baiting out poor plays is a thing.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Nov 29, 2018 19:59:07 GMT
Man, I get so scared when the poor odds runs come up. I've been nailed by too many sub 15 percenters to ever feel safe.
But yes, you nailed the gist of the play 'dox. Glad he's fun again!
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Post by paradox on Nov 29, 2018 20:31:13 GMT
Man, I get so scared when the poor odds runs come up. I've been nailed by too many sub 15 percenters to ever feel safe. But yes, you nailed the gist of the play 'dox. Glad he's fun again! Rolling better is always the best strategy. Like Elswick says, it’s better to be lucky than good.
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Post by greytemplar on Nov 30, 2018 0:57:15 GMT
Really, I wish they had made the Reckoner 17 points and given it RoF2, and drop the poor Vanquisher to 14-15.
I am 100% certain they costed all of our jacks assuming Vassals and Choir didn't change.
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Post by mydnight on Nov 30, 2018 3:33:38 GMT
The beginning of MKIII seems so far away now, almost as if we are in MKIII.5 due to all the bad decisions the Soles and team made at the stsart. Having said that they did a good job with the general game rules.
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Nov 30, 2018 8:01:13 GMT
I would like to see vanguisher to gain revelators blasted earth. It would give good role. 14p is too low, but 15 or 16p would be good price as ranged attacks on warjacks should cost. Also we have to keep in mind that we now have one really good movement buff: Road to war on seve0. And it would be really good if vanguisher have good way to use all 3 focus seve0 can allocate. That way reckoner would be focus efficient shooter and vanguisher would be focus hungry.
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Post by paradox on Nov 30, 2018 13:00:30 GMT
I would like to see vanguisher to gain revelators blasted earth. It would give good role. 14p is too low, but 15 or 16p would be good price as ranged attacks on warjacks should cost. Also we have to keep in mind that we now have one really good movement buff: Road to war on seve0. And it would be really good if vanguisher have good way to use all 3 focus seve0 can allocate. That way reckoner would be focus efficient shooter and vanguisher would be focus hungry. The vanquisher has always been the focus efficient shooter for me. High POW and choir + Fire means rately boosting blast damage, it works on its own pretty well. Power Up gives you a boosted damage direct shot as needed, allocate 1 if you need to boost to hit. Reckoner needed 3 with Assault because it often went after high-DEF targets to Flare, and might as well boost that damage anyway. Losing Assault makes it less focus-hungry, but Flare often demands a boost to hit still, and might as well boost that damage. The real kicker is the reckoners gun gaining more POW. Unless you need AoEs, the reckoner is flat better for cheaper. Even at 16 Id never reach for a vanquisher now. Cause if you need AoEs, there are better or cheaper options out there. This is how Id settled on 15. 15 + Burning Earth would be great though. But I still see no need to find wats to make vanquishers focus hungry.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Nov 30, 2018 20:45:59 GMT
I think it, and most single shot ranged 'jacks, suffer from the same problem and that's why I think even 15 points is too high as it stands. With so many pertinent defenses, guns just aren't the lever they used to be. The Defender is 16 points and never sees play. The Destroyer is 14 (!) points and also never sees play, though that likely stems from poor stats rather than his cost. Even the very flexible Vindicator, with his multiple shot types, good stats, and excellent (almost ancillary) in-faction support, is *barely* taken at 15 points.
It feels like the reason is the same in each case: single shot guns don't produce like they used to and when the 'jack inevitably has to get busy in melee, it falls short.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jun 7, 2019 16:20:46 GMT
Made several updates to include new models and the new theme.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Jul 29, 2019 16:50:16 GMT
I so want to try a Reznik 2 Warriors of the Old Faith list with the Khador Gun Carriage. That would surely be a hilarious feat turn
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jul 30, 2019 0:48:04 GMT
You can do the six huge base list. I can't say it's good, but it is funny.
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Post by mydnight on Jul 30, 2019 2:22:04 GMT
It is worth mentioning the Archon for Repenter Spam and even the colossals. Coupled with Sev0 thats quite a boost to ranged firepower. It also boosts his feat damage. This makes CM particularly attractive to Rez2. Also, I think Scourge works well with Sev0, since he can afford to hand out focus for vortex, and warpath is more reliable than the bond.
Also what are your thoughts on the 'new' Avatar with him? In CM the avatar gets up to pwr 22 and you're already bringing double vassals so its easy to guarantee 4 focus, and with boundless charge he has the potential to one round colossals/gargs with zero focus from Rez2.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jul 30, 2019 15:44:00 GMT
The Archon is not a bad selection if you're bringing a few sources of fire damage. I don't know that I'd spring for one for just a Judicator, but add in anything else and it's pretty good. He's also a good torpedo with Reznik2 thanks to Boundless.
The Avatar is fine with Reznik2. It loses out on Curse, but MAT 8 means you don't really care. Reznik making him blessed is also kind of rude.
I don't know that I'd take him in a CM list, but Reznik2 runs FM well and there is a natural fit there.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Oct 27, 2019 20:17:46 GMT
I've been thinking of a pure Hordes drop, with some play into things like WGC and Gravediggers, and it feels okay. I wish we had some 2 point option, so I could get to 75 points cleanly, it's at 74 now.
Creator's Might:
[Reznik 2] Servath Reznik, Wrath of Ages [+29] - Guardian [15] - Repenter [8] - Repenter [8] - Scourge of Heresy [16] - Madelyn Corbeau, Ordic Courtesan [4] Exemplar Warder [0(5)] Initiate Tristan Durant [4] - Templar [15] Scrutator Potentate Severius [0(6)] - Templar [15] The Covenant of Menoth [4] 3 Vassal Mechanik [3] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] Vassal of Menoth [0(3)] 3 Wrack [3] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Choir of Menoth (min) [4]
Templar on Tristan is just a beef wall. Templar on Sev0 can get some fun movement shenanigans and odd threat vectors. Guardian for Flesh is Weak on a flank and accuracy. Repenters to clear swarms or get decent sprays onto solos. Scourge does Scourge things. I think, even with the lower model count, I can leverage Flesh is Weak to prevent beasts from charging and always trade favorably by upkeeping Lamentation. Book is for no spells on a flank or father forward than Lamentation can reach, or to just hold a flag. I think Sevy and Tristan can just hold their own zone and Reznik and his group grab the other. His feat with all the accuracy provided is also useful to clear all sorts of things.
Edit on 11/20: I played this list last night and it performed very well. First game was a Maelock list with 3 max posse. Liberal use of Flesh is Weak works wonders, it prevented his Swamp Horror from being able to get on Rez. No Spells and Lamentation kept him back, and Scourge ended up getting the assassination vector after I feated. The Templar pod held their side of the table pretty easily. Turns out ARM 21/23 is pretty good.
Game 2 was against Blaze with Blockader, 2 Archons, 2 units of Precursors with Battlepriests, Gabriel Throne, and Jakes with Gallant, and Alexia on a horse. And maybe some other stuff. Blockader targeted models out of range to hit Scourge with sprays and absolutely cranked damage rolls, leaving him with cortex and both arms out. My mechanics repaired him, Vassals empowered him, Reznik Boundless Charged him, and then my feat did very little with all the tough models. Scourge left the Fortuned Blockader on 10 boxes, even with just 2 focus on him. If I one rounded it, the game was set to be much different, Reznik could have sat in the middle of the board.
He destroyed all my jacks except a lone Repenter that was surrounded by enemies. I had the juniors and vassals all sling spells onto his objective but couldn't bust it, that was my only hope to win on scenario. I had a very very small chance to assassinate by casting FiW on the Repenter to clear it, then having it walk and boost a spray onto Constance. FiW hit it, did no damage, then boosted damage on the Precursors killed all but one. Free strike did minimal damage. Spray hit, boost damage and the dice weren't with me. At dice-3, I did something like 2 damage. Ended up losing on assassination because he had a line to kill Madelyn, which let his Archons and troopers get to me.
I'm definitely turned on to the list. Stacking Madelyn, the Book, a Warder, and Lamentation just destroys most strategies that opponents have and allows you to project Reznik2's threat almost anywhere on the table. The Tristan+Sevy Templar pod, with a Repenter as fire support gave me a good base to hold half the table while Reznik and his group did their own thing elsewhere.
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