germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Denny0
Oct 30, 2018 10:43:51 GMT
Post by germanicus on Oct 30, 2018 10:43:51 GMT
Well... well...
Apparently, Scav, the Hateful Eight (haven't the faintest idea what that's a reference to, but eh...) is going to be the latest jank with a character heavy Black Industries list (DJ, Malice, Erebus on Scav, Nightmare on Denny0, Kharybdis on Aiakos1, plus some other stuff), 'cos TK plus feat and the potential for souls allows Denny to nail a key spell when she needs to. Not sure how I feel about the list, but Scav + Denny0 is something I'm more than willing to have a go with.
Anyway, I primarily want to discuss Denny0... people's thoughts on her? Curse of Shadows good enough? Venom wasted? Best jack for Witch Bond?
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Denny0
Oct 30, 2018 12:22:06 GMT
via mobile
Post by bward on Oct 30, 2018 12:22:06 GMT
I agree Denny0 and Scav make a potent combo, but the all character list I think is just cute and not actually very good at all. Who knows.
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Denny0
Oct 30, 2018 13:08:13 GMT
Post by tiberius on Oct 30, 2018 13:08:13 GMT
Aside from Scaverous's feat turn, venom will be pretty wasted, but curse of shadows on a stick is not bad and quite a few of our casters like that. Terminus comes to mind. Though he would rather be in another theme (instead of black industries) The double control area for her jack with witch bond will let her stay pretty safe. There are a lot of normal casters that don't get 16".
What other themes is she allowed in? Infernal machines is it aside from Black Industries. Actually I don't mind her in there.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Denny0
Oct 30, 2018 18:45:16 GMT
Post by Deller on Oct 30, 2018 18:45:16 GMT
Focus 4 Venom is trash, you’ll likely never cast it. Witch Bond is interesting, but probably a trap because you’ll end up putting combat Warjacks on Deneghra & when you run into a matchup where you can’t get souls that jack likely becomes super mopy. The issue with just putting Witch Bond out for the Extended Control becomes if you don't get frequent souls upkeeping Witch Bond means Deneghra loses the ability to boost her Curse of Shadows, which she really wants to do because Focus 4. Just putting a combat jack on her and using her as a Focus battery probably isn’t worth it. Aiakos1 does that better with Escort, and the only buff she can realistically provide a jack while being a battery is Extended Control Range, which doesn’t seem better than Escort. I also don’t think she’s worth bringing for access to Nightmare either. Nightmare doesn’t really bring anything to any caster that’s worth the 22 point investment that would cost. He’s already difficult to fit into lists at 18 points.
Caster Independent Curse of Shadows is why you play Deneghra0. In Black Industries you take her when you need a caster independent damage buff or a Ranged damage buff. Lists like Skarre3 Leviathans, Scaverous, Mortenebra1, Venethrax, & Aiakos2 in BI are all gunna love having access to Curse of Shadows (Aiakos2 especially since it lets him bullet a heavy through a screening unit) in some/all of their builds.
I do think Deneghra0’s existence breathes new life into Infernal Machines. McThralls combo striking under Curse of Shadows hit at power 15. That’s close to Bane Level hitting power at a much lower cost, with much better recursion. That sounds great with many of our Casters that don’t actually have any armor fixing, or who’s only armor fixing was Dark Shroud. The Casters I’ve been looking at for Infernal Machines with her release being Goreshade3, Terminus, & Skarre2.
Goreshade3 wants to play in one of the 3 undead themes because his big draw is Mockery of Life. He’s largely been played in Ghost Fleet & Dark Host only though, because IM hits only slightly harder than GF, but with Significantly worse Recursion, and Dark Host hits much harder. Now that he can take Deneghra0 though, IM starts to look more interesting than DH. You hit as hard with Bane Warriors being effective Pow 13 (Dark Shroud) WM vs McThrall’s effective Pow 17 (Combo Strike, Scything Touch, Curse of Shadows), but you’ve got much better recursion (especially since you can do the double up trick where you kill a guy, give its corpse to a Surgeon to make a new one, and bring it back with Mockery). You also have access to Carrion Thralls which are some of the best models in the faction for Goreshade3’s Feat, especially when you factor in the Synergy with Curse of Shadows taking away a model/unit’s ability to free strike them.
Terminus in IM is very similar to Goreshade3. You want an undead theme to make use of Sac Pawn. These days the two people tend to go with are GF & DH because Ghost Fleet offers Terminus the best personal protection with Rengrave extending his effective Sac Pawn bubble to insane degrees along with the lists sheer recursive element, and Dark Host can do the most work without needing Terminus to do all the heavy lifting himself. With access to Deneghra0 though, IM is now able to reach similar levels of damage output to Dark Host, while also using Necrosurgeons to extend Terminus’s Sac Pawn bubble the same way Rengrave does in Ghost Fleet, only IM gets a significantly larger bubble because it can take two Surgeons where GF only gets one Rengrave. While your recursion isn’t as good as Ghost Fleet’s, the models you recur in IM are significantly stronger than Revenants once they get access to Curse of Shadows.
Skarre2 in IM is largely because one of my favorite Cryx models I never play anymore because they’re only in IM are Bloat Thralls. Rng 12, AoE 4s with Auto corrosion & Arcing Fire are fantastic. Add in Black Spot and these guys rain acidic death on Infantry based lists. The issue is Skarre2 is on the short list of Cryx Casters that brings absolutely 0 damage fixing while existing in a faction that’s balanced around Casters that bring insane damage swing potential. This frequently results in her having a massive list of matchups she wants to dodge because she can’t reliably kill the enemy battlegroup when she’s not in either Dark Host or Slaughter Fleet. Deneghra0 helps fix this issue. Deneghra0 lets Skarre2 have the armor debuff she’s always wanted while also playing Bloat Thralls.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Denny0
Oct 31, 2018 0:53:24 GMT
Post by Growl on Oct 31, 2018 0:53:24 GMT
I am quite torn over her, I think that Curse of Shadows is a great Spell for her to bring to Casters that don’t have it, but at FOCUS 4, she will likely always need to boost it to hit, which without any extra souls, means she can’t upkeep Witch Bond, which means she needs to be much closer to the action in order to pull it off. She can very easily be at 0 Focus and ultimately be very easy to remove unlike that ridiculously OP Sevy0. I think with Scaverous, she can easily benefit from his FEAT, help him out a lot as well, because he can really use the extra debuffs, and finally because she can benefit from the possible rerolls that he can give her with any sounds he has collected. I think she can work, but the design of her I think is pretty poor with regard to her ultimate survivability.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Denny0
Oct 31, 2018 5:31:03 GMT
Post by germanicus on Oct 31, 2018 5:31:03 GMT
And given her shtick, I think they've overvalued Stealth and Parry on her when she really doesn't want to be anywhere near a fight and there's enough anti-Stealth stuff out there for a measly grunt to one shot her.
Would Dark Power be OP on her? I don't think so...
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Denny0
Oct 31, 2018 6:53:25 GMT
Post by custardboy on Oct 31, 2018 6:53:25 GMT
She's great as a 4 point debuff model (if you compare to Gorman/Ragman/Aiyana) but the issue is that her debuff doesn't stack with most of ours and putting a jack on her. I think I'll use her with Morty1, maybe Venethrax, after that we'd see.
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Denny0
Oct 31, 2018 7:20:56 GMT
Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 31, 2018 7:20:56 GMT
And given her shtick, I think they've overvalued Stealth and Parry on her when she really doesn't want to be anywhere near a fight and there's enough anti-Stealth stuff out there for a measly grunt to one shot her. Would Dark Power be OP on her? I don't think so... Well, she's only 4 points, so I'm not sure if Parry or her melee "capabilities" really add to her cost. She's basically a Warwitch Siren with a higher potential to make an impact (more focus or a damage/assassination buff). Stealth is still good, even if there is stuff out there that can ignore it. Curse of Shadows is also much more than just a damage buff, which is why it was given to her instead of the original Parasite. Being able to basically ignore a unit is pretty major. FOC 4 stinks indeed and we almost begged PP for Dark Power, but they were adamant about not giving her any personal hit buffs apart from the ability to boost. That's when they came up with Witch Mark (please now give it to Denny 3 as well) Sometimes you will land your debuff and you will cheer and just as often she will miss, blowing her entire stack, losing the arc node and wasting her turn and you will curse her. I mostly agree with Deller 's write-up. Venom is really just there for flavor. As for jacks to put on her: - She can be a Leviathan battery, possibly foregoing the arc node and using Witch Mark to get some souls.
- A single Seether could be quite nice with "extended control range" and it's good at collecting souls.
- Nightmare I guess, but I see little reason to take that overpriced jack in the first place, let alone on a 4 point solo. Like bward I think the character build is cute, but nothing more.
- A single arc node, possibly paired with a Stalker. The problem is that you will probably be choosing not to take advantage of Witch Mark, because you can't afford to upkeep it.
The problem is that it's not really worth putting a heavy on her, because she either can't afford to fuel it, or she's not better at it than Aiakos. Not to mention the price tag. PS: germanicus Hateful Eight, you get 8 characters in the list.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Denny0
Oct 31, 2018 7:37:08 GMT
Post by germanicus on Oct 31, 2018 7:37:08 GMT
Well, she's only 4 points, so I'm not sure if Parry or her melee "capabilities" really add to her cost. She's basically a Warwitch Siren with a higher potential to make an impact (more focus or a damage/assassination buff). Stealth is still good, even if there is stuff out there that can ignore it. I'd count her as more than 4pts... specific to Black Industries (since I'm discounting IM for the sake of my wallet!), owing to the fact that she MUST bring at least one jack (and if one of them isn't an arc node, it can be argued that we're kinda wasting our time) and she brings a debuff independent of the main caster but on a lousy MA. It's difficult for her to run independently. My initial thought was a heavy (Seether) and a chicken to make the most of her spells, but holy-crud is that an expensive package. A purchased chicken (to keep two on Scav), perhaps? I'll try a few combos out, see if she's even worth including with Scav etc. etc. Didn't realise about the request for Dark Power... still, pity didn't go through. Yeah, agree on all counts. It'll be worth testing out the various loud-outs, value-for-points or otherwise, since the module's performance is quite context sensitive. 23pts for a Seether and Deathripper does make me cringe a bit and seems as though it'll make Denny cry! Watched a random YT vid and picked up on the movie reference by accident. Knew it was 8 because of the number of character models in the list, just didn't get the 'Hateful' bit, until aforementioned video drew my attention to the film.
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Denny0
Oct 31, 2018 7:49:03 GMT
Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 31, 2018 7:49:03 GMT
I'd count her as more than 4pts... specific to Black Industries (since I'm discounting IM for the sake of my wallet!), owing to the fact that she MUST bring at least one jack (and if one of them isn't an arc node, it can be argued that we're kinda wasting our time) and she brings a debuff independent of the main caster but on a lousy MA. It's difficult for her to run independently. My initial thought was a heavy (Seether) and a chicken to make the most of her spells, but holy-crud is that an expensive package. A purchased chicken (to keep two on Scav), perhaps? I intend to modify this list when I have her: conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0U0F1e1e1v1v1h1h1h0te2kw1h2of02Bkj32Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Black Industries [Skarre 1] Pirate Queen Skarre [+28] - Ripjaw [0(7)] - Ripjaw [0(7)] - Slayer [10] - Slayer [10] - Stalker [8] - Stalker [8] - Stalker [8] - The Withershadow Combine [9] Aiakos, Scourge of the Meredius [4] - Kharybdis [17] - Stalker [8] Scrap Thrall (3) [2] Soul Trapper [1] Warwitch Siren [4] Black Ogrun Ironmongers [6] Cephalyx Overlords [8] She then gets one Stalker and 1 of the free arc nodes, because Skarre doesn't really need 2 anyway. Here I see her as a straight upgrade to the Siren, because she can give out more focus or add a debuff outside the feat turn. Not yet sure if I would downgrade the Slayers to Stalkers to accommodate for her or just straight swap out the Siren.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Denny0
Oct 31, 2018 8:04:02 GMT
Post by germanicus on Oct 31, 2018 8:04:02 GMT
What's the rationale for these guys with Skarre1? With Scav/Denny2, I get, but not sure what they contribute for Skarre1 aside from being a small scoring/contesting element and a magical spray. Ability to just function completely independently?
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Denny0
Oct 31, 2018 8:16:06 GMT
Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 31, 2018 8:16:06 GMT
What's the rationale for these guys with Skarre1? With Scav/Denny2, I get, but not sure what they contribute for Skarre1 aside from being a small scoring/contesting element and a magical spray. Ability to just function completely independently? Exactly that. They screw over Gremlin Swarms, they clear infantry, they unjam and they score round zones. They do loads of things for 8 points.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Denny0
Oct 31, 2018 9:44:14 GMT
Post by germanicus on Oct 31, 2018 9:44:14 GMT
Exactly that. They screw over Gremlin Swarms, they clear infantry, they unjam and they score round zones. They do loads of things for 8 points. Yah, gotta get me somma dem...! I get somewhat hung up by MA 7 being good but missing something (hence Scaverous or Denny2 for boosts/DEF debuffs), even though I come from Ret and maining Kae, who has no inbuilt hit buffs except against jacks and her army still has no real issue hitting stuff!
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Denny0
Oct 31, 2018 10:27:29 GMT
Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 31, 2018 10:27:29 GMT
Yah, gotta get me somma dem...! I get somewhat hung up by MA 7 being good but missing something (hence Scaverous or Denny2 for boosts/DEF debuffs), even though I come from Ret and maining Kae, who has no inbuilt hit buffs except against jacks and her army still has no real issue hitting stuff! Yeah it sucks when they miss, but you have 3 of them and sprays usually have multiple targets so it events out anyway.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Denny0
Nov 11, 2018 5:35:18 GMT
Post by germanicus on Nov 11, 2018 5:35:18 GMT
Sudden thought... though definitely not original to me: if only Jezraell was SR legal, that would be so busted...!
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