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Post by macdaddy on Nov 7, 2018 3:26:50 GMT
Well, one person here is in the dojo. The other speaking from practical, empirical, tabletop evidence. That's a pretty silly thing to assume. You don't think I am playing games as well? Come on, now. If you want to discuss, at least discuss with some basic assumptions that players aren't basing their opinions on nothing. He won an event and played it more than once dude. It may not play into everything but it covers the match up Iona struggles with which is how a list pair works.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Nov 7, 2018 4:24:31 GMT
That's a pretty silly thing to assume. You don't think I am playing games as well? Come on, now. If you want to discuss, at least discuss with some basic assumptions that players aren't basing their opinions on nothing. He won an event and played it more than once dude. It may not play into everything but it covers the match up Iona struggles with which is how a list pair works. And I am questioning his assumptions in order to gain greater understanding. This is how we learn. Winning an event doesn't make one immune to question and criticism. More experience at something should inform your argument and make you better able to make it. It does not replace an argument.
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Post by redcathal on Nov 7, 2018 10:22:37 GMT
I won the WMW invitational with secret masters in my pair. AMA What did you drop it into and why? Conversely, and I suppose a little off topic, what match ups does Iona generally not want in your opinion?
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 7, 2018 11:45:12 GMT
He won an event and played it more than once dude. It may not play into everything but it covers the match up Iona struggles with which is how a list pair works. And I am questioning his assumptions in order to gain greater understanding. This is how we learn. Winning an event doesn't make one immune to question and criticism. More experience at something should inform your argument and make you better able to make it. It does not replace an argument. Except the issue is he has more experience and you disregard that to make your argument about a list you have never tested being bad/not relevant to the meta. How about, since it’s obvious he was successful and also since choco is a pretty well reputable player, we talk about how the list works instead of instantly saying it doesn’t and pointing out random MU’s where it fails. Every list has weaknesses and bad match ups dude that’s why you have 2... Krueger + the raptor is strong. It has a solid assassination vector thanks to birds eye, the Plasma Nova, sustained attacks, and reload. It has good anti shooting defensive tech (-8 to Guns on the Bid!) and OK Melee defense thanks to Guardian Beast (which goes off more than you think it would) You also get an excellent BG for Krueger. Pureblood for Blessed Magical raptor guns, and wardens for extra threat extebders abd dude control. Finally the Valkaries help again the gunline Drop, as what gubs do Hit will be shield guarded adding a layer to ranged defense. It’s a really creative list and we need more creativity in the community. (Thanks to Trollock @losjaden and others like them for posting content and giving us sweet dojo to use and build off of!)
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Post by streetpizza on Nov 7, 2018 13:46:29 GMT
I won the WMW invitational with secret masters in my pair. AMA What did you drop it into and why? Conversely, and I suppose a little off topic, what match ups does Iona generally not want in your opinion? Any chance we can consolidate the questions for Bret in the other thread about his win and keep this one purely SM tech focused? Should help both him and us have a better discussion. This thread is already going off the rails into theory town.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Nov 7, 2018 14:42:14 GMT
And I am questioning his assumptions in order to gain greater understanding. This is how we learn. Winning an event doesn't make one immune to question and criticism. More experience at something should inform your argument and make you better able to make it. It does not replace an argument. Except the issue is he has more experience and you disregard that to make your argument about a list you have never tested being bad/not relevant to the meta. How about, since it’s obvious he was successful and also since choco is a pretty well reputable player, we talk about how the list works instead of instantly saying it doesn’t and pointing out random MU’s where it fails. Every list has weaknesses and bad match ups dude that’s why you have 2... Krueger + the raptor is strong. It has a solid assassination vector thanks to birds eye, the Plasma Nova, sustained attacks, and reload. It has good anti shooting defensive tech (-8 to Guns on the Bid!) and OK Melee defense thanks to Guardian Beast (which goes off more than you think it would) You also get an excellent BG for Krueger. Pureblood for Blessed Magical raptor guns, and wardens for extra threat extebders abd dude control. Finally the Valkaries help again the gunline Drop, as what gubs do Hit will be shield guarded adding a layer to ranged defense. It’s a really creative list and we need more creativity in the community. (Thanks to Trollock @losjaden and others like them for posting content and giving us sweet dojo to use and build off of!) I am not disregarding anything, thanks. I asked what matchups he wanted this list for, he stated it, I disagreed with his stated set of assumptions because I believe there is a reasonable set of lists in those factions where the Raptor list isn't actually all that strong and would lose on quite a consistent basis. He has more experience playing that list. That should help inform his argument. It should not be his argument. This is, like, discussion101. I have no idea about the reputation of Chocoobsessed, I don't follow the American scene very closely. Reputation also is not a relevant factor, tbh. The list has some cheeky ideas going into it, but I question whether it comes together and makes a list that covers the weaknesses Iona has to an adequate degree. He believes it does, but I am not so sure.
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Post by chocobsessed on Nov 7, 2018 18:25:04 GMT
What did you drop it into and why? Conversely, and I suppose a little off topic, what match ups does Iona generally not want in your opinion? Any chance we can consolidate the questions for Bret in the other thread about his win and keep this one purely SM tech focused? Should help both him and us have a better discussion. This thread is already going off the rails into theory town. In my best ozzy impression : I'm going off the rails on a theory train!!! Also, redcathal I answered your question in the other thread: lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/8397/wmw-circle-victory?page=2#post-119523
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Post by Swampmist on Nov 7, 2018 19:01:43 GMT
Arguments are bordering on personal attack, especially from a few specific people I'm not gonna name. Calm thy shit people.
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Post by streetpizza on Nov 15, 2018 21:03:23 GMT
So I've been thinking on this theme some more and I've come up with the following. I feel like I'm crazy but then I keep thinking about it and it seems good. What do you guys think am I barking up the wrong tree? conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0MmXmNjFg4g45gbF75575cjOmTCircle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Secret Masters !!! Your army contains a pre-release entry. [Morvahna 1] Morvahna the Autumnblade [+28] - Brennos the Elderhorn [15] - Woldwarden [14] Blackclad Stoneshaper [3] Blackclad Stoneshaper [3] Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)] Wrong Eye [17] - Snapjaw Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (max) [19] Druids of Orboros [12] - Druid of Orboros Overseer [0(4)] Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers [10] Well of Orboros [10] Recurring corpse source for the bogs and the well feeds them corpses as well. Apparition lets the druids clear out of charge lanes and then reform a cloud wall when they activate. Armor cracking from P+S 20 Warden, P+S18 blessed brennos, P+S 20 snapjaw, P+S 11 WM nyss. Starcrossed seems really good with druids in cloudwall or with the nyss. Lots of magic weapons, lots of sprays, RFP from well and feat and good accuracy. Am I missing anything? Would brigands be better than the nyss here?
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 16, 2018 11:57:54 GMT
streetpizza I’m not sold on star crossed to protect the nyss honestly. That could be Valkaries and/or a croc pot. Bathe pot gives you D3 guaranteed corpses a turn and Valkaries are one of the best defensive units (arguable THE best) in minions. Just feels like your giving up a lot for the star crossed gimmick. Having said that, if your taking Wrong Eye and SJ for an extra face beater heavy, I think I can see thatand then star crossed is just a bonus. I’m still brainstorming with a Lesser warlock build for Krueger...one of the things I like about this theme is it forces me to try things out. Building lists is fairly difficult because of the options available. Lucky for me I have a minions player who is helping me figure out potential combos.
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satyr
Demo Gamer
Posts: 10
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Post by satyr on Nov 18, 2018 19:31:17 GMT
So I've been thinking on this theme some more and I've come up with the following. I feel like I'm crazy but then I keep thinking about it and it seems good. What do you guys think am I barking up the wrong tree? conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0MmXmNjFg4g45gbF75575cjOmTCircle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Secret Masters !!! Your army contains a pre-release entry. [Morvahna 1] Morvahna the Autumnblade [+28] - Brennos the Elderhorn [15] - Woldwarden [14] Blackclad Stoneshaper [3] Blackclad Stoneshaper [3] Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)] Wrong Eye [17] - Snapjaw Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (max) [19] Druids of Orboros [12] - Druid of Orboros Overseer [0(4)] Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers [10] Well of Orboros [10] Recurring corpse source for the bogs and the well feeds them corpses as well. Apparition lets the druids clear out of charge lanes and then reform a cloud wall when they activate. Armor cracking from P+S 20 Warden, P+S18 blessed brennos, P+S 20 snapjaw, P+S 11 WM nyss. Starcrossed seems really good with druids in cloudwall or with the nyss. Lots of magic weapons, lots of sprays, RFP from well and feat and good accuracy. Am I missing anything? Would brigands be better than the nyss here? I had a similar morvhana1 idea, though with only 1 warden I do not believe having two shapers is needed. My list has slaughterhousers as the main hitting power since all they need is a delivery mechanism. Played it a couple times without the husks but I felt like I wanted my cloudwall to be the second wave not the first so I added the husks to hopefully buy the Druids a turn and let them run first turn then cloudwall up so the brick is not as slow. War Room Army Circle Orboros - Morvhana1 SM Theme: Secret Masters 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Morvahna the Autumnblade - WB: +28 - Brennos the Elderhorn - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15) - Woldwarden - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) Blackclad Wayfarer - PC: 0 Blackclad Stoneshaper - PC: 3 Saxon Orrik - PC: 4 Gatorman Husk - PC: 3 Gatorman Husk - PC: 3 Wrong Eye - Wrong Eye & Snapjaw: 17 - Snapjaw Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers - Bokor & 9 Grunts: 10 Druids of Orboros - Leader & 5 Grunts: 12 - Druid of Orboros Overseer - PC: 0 Farrow Slaughterhousers - Leader & 5 Grunts: 11 Farrow Slaughterhousers - Leader & 5 Grunts: 11 THEME: Secret Masters --- GENERATED : 11/18/2018 12:31:07 BUILD ID : 2069.18-10-06
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