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Post by elshinare on Nov 3, 2018 22:59:21 GMT
I just think of it as counting towards free solo points in any given list, double points in SM and Bones
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Post by jisidro on Nov 4, 2018 0:58:21 GMT
I’m not sure I understand. It’s not unreasonable to factor in the free solo to its cost.
I believe it is unreasonable and wrong. There are a LOT of recursion abilities in the game and this was never factored in the cost. What is unreasonable is saying that recursion isn't guarenteed and is therefore worth zero points.
If the
- Well's cost is 12 - #Cost of Solo - The Menoth Curch is worth 12(It's cost can't remember) - #Turns * 3xGrunt cost * dead guys existance probability - Tencher Block house is worth #Turns * Avg. D3 * probablity of having D3 dead grunts. - High Reclaimer has WJP = 32 + Sum of dead grunts revived + Sum of Grunts feat brought back - Morvahna2 has WBP = 32 + Value of Feat...
It's one thing to say the well is ok at 12pts but it's another to say it's a good 5pts... Especially because any recursion seems broken and we know it hasn't been.
Don't forget you can talk about lists like this as well...
Ravagers + UA are worth 13pts with Free Champion? Are they still worth it if they pay for a Blood Shaman and cost 16pts?
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Post by josephkerr on Nov 4, 2018 3:17:12 GMT
I’m not sure I understand. It’s not unreasonable to factor in the free solo to its cost.
I believe it is unreasonable and wrong. There are a LOT of recursion abilities in the game and this was never factored in the cost. What is unreasonable is saying that recursion isn't guarenteed and is therefore worth zero points.
If the
- Well's cost is 12 - #Cost of Solo - The Menoth Curch is worth 12(It's cost can't remember) - #Turns * 3xGrunt cost * dead guys existance probability - Tencher Block house is worth #Turns * Avg. D3 * probablity of having D3 dead grunts. - High Reclaimer has WJP = 32 + Sum of dead grunts revived + Sum of Grunts feat brought back - Morvahna2 has WBP = 32 + Value of Feat...
It's one thing to say the well is ok at 12pts but it's another to say it's a good 5pts... Especially because any recursion seems broken and we know it hasn't been.
Don't forget you can talk about lists like this as well...
Ravagers + UA are worth 13pts with Free Champion? Are they still worth it if they pay for a Blood Shaman and cost 16pts?
If you are talking recursion, shouldn’t you include the cost of the unit into all of these equations? The recursion isn’t free when you pay for both the Blockhouse and the Trenchers. This is literally a free solo. Buy a Well, get a solo. Why not look at that as “free” points?
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Post by onijet01 on Nov 4, 2018 8:11:47 GMT
To add fire to the flames.
Recusion abilities are never a guarantee. Due to every faction having accessible outs to recursion abilities.
Gaining a free solo spawning with no oppertunity cost is technically a more logical and cost effective way to look at the game.
SO FOR THE ARGUMENT of the Circle Structure being able to count on the solo for the list is more highly achievable over counting on recusion or replacement abilities.
Now generally speaking recurring models have 4 sets of cost to take into account.
Cost of initial unit. Cost of spell with/without upkeeps. Cost of the model ability to bring recursion. Cost of opponents outs to recursion.
Two models in the game ignore 3 of these rules. Both the Circle Structure and Gorshade 1 simply put model(s) into play relying on nothing else but the models being in play.
That is the cold truth to the argument.
-end my data-
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Post by jisidro on Nov 5, 2018 2:39:42 GMT
I did add probability... Because recursion is not guaranteed. It doesn't mean we can't do simple math.
My biggest issue is discussing the well like it's a 5pt model with unparalleled versatility... Ignoring that most circle solos don't cost 5. It's a 0 to 3 point skew that becomes really inaccurate once you compare the well to other models.
In better news... Go go Bret, Iona and a wonky Kruerger2!
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Nov 5, 2018 4:31:16 GMT
I have an issue when calling it versatile when its a structure. Its the least versatile model type in the game.
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Post by LoS Jaden on Nov 5, 2018 6:16:33 GMT
Bret won wmw with a secret masters k2 raptor list in his pairing that he even played twice!
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 5, 2018 9:08:47 GMT
Recursion is not guaranteed (though the outs to it are overstated, given how broad most recursion is. I don't care if you brought RFP, unless it's a theme benefit you're not RFPing everything you kill, and if you're opponent brings recursion and then lets you wipe out units, they are playing like a potato). It also has a much higher top end.
A supreme guardian recurs 3 immortals for 3 turns (not at all uncommon). Even after the points drop on immortals, that's ~12 points of recurred models. And at the end of the day, you've still got a supreme guardian, a model which is capable of wrecking...well, everything.
A blockhouse recurs 2 trenchers a turn for 4 turns. Assuming the blockhouse recurs regular trenchers, we're looking at 12.8 points of models.
Skarre3 recurs ~2 blighted trollkin over 5 turns. That's 15 points of models.
None of these are uncommon scenarios. And yet you don't see people claiming that the blockhouse is 'negative points' or that Skarre3 is 'really a 40+ WJP caster'.
Whether you call it 'adding' models to play or 'returning models' to play, the end result is the same in the vast majority of games. There are advantages to what the well does (fixed value every game, which can't be easily denied). There are advantages to what recursion does (higher top end, greater scenario presence over the course of the game). However, it's asinine to claim that you can't make a comparison between the two.
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Post by Trollock on Nov 5, 2018 12:43:42 GMT
I totally disagree that recursion is the same thing as what the well does. On turn 1 i put in my free solo and now my list is 4-5 points bigger than it was when i built it. Recursion only brings back models that have been killed. It does not increase the total size of your army. Recursion is much more similar to something like the kriel stone. That can prevent a couple of dudes dying to gunfire on the way in. Recursion is worse than that in the sense that the guys you bring back cant attack, but better in the sense that it is most likely more guys who return than the number of guys saved by the kriel stone.
Let us assume that the well CANT bring a solo in. Build a list with it. You now have a certain number of models in the list. The well cost 10 points (or what it will turn out to be). Now say that you are allowed to add a 5 point solo to that list. Your list now became 5 points bigger/better. Right? That is exactly what the well does though. Saying that the well only costs like 5 points is just another way of looking at it, but beware! In several themes the well does not count towards the free solos. Hence it eats in to the few points you can safely spend on non-theme-counting things. If you miss out on a free solo because you broght the well, you are now paying full 10 points for the well. In SM and BoO though, that is not the case.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 5, 2018 13:43:45 GMT
I totally disagree that recursion is the same thing as what the well does. On turn 1 i put in my free solo and now my list is 4-5 points bigger than it was when i built it. Recursion only brings back models that have been killed. It does not increase the total size of your army. Recursion is much more similar to something like the kriel stone. That can prevent a couple of dudes dying to gunfire on the way in. Recursion is worse than that in the sense that the guys you bring back cant attack, but better in the sense that it is most likely more guys who return than the number of guys saved by the kriel stone. Let us assume that the well CANT bring a solo in. Build a list with it. You now have a certain number of models in the list. The well cost 10 points (or what it will turn out to be). Now say that you are allowed to add a 5 point solo to that list. Your list now became 5 points bigger/better. Right? That is exactly what the well does though. Saying that the well only costs like 5 points is just another way of looking at it, but beware! In several themes the well does not count towards the free solos. Hence it eats in to the few points you can safely spend on non-theme-counting things. If you miss out on a free solo because you broght the well, you are now paying full 10 points for the well. In SM and BoO though, that is not the case. Good Point. Especially for a caster like Baldur1 who really really wants the +2 to control range and also likes to run in Devo Host and Call of the Wild. Technically though, in Devo Host, you can bring the well and a croc pot, and still not eat into free points (hits the max cap of 15 you can spend on non free models, granted at a cost to the BG.) Even then, if it does eat into free points it makes up for that by still bringing in a solo, and also opens your list up more for situational support like magic weapons from the shaman or hunters mark from a wayfarer. You can spend the 2 free slots of combat solos and then have the well port in a support solos depending on what you need in the MU. Overall I am really digging the well. Its a solid gun on a durable platform with versatile support all for a cost that doesn't break the bank. Back onto the secret masters train, I am now trying to find SM lists that want to run a well....hmmmm
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Post by jisidro on Nov 5, 2018 14:01:58 GMT
Ok, so if recursion forces the opponent to kill 10 extra models your army wasn't bigger? I disagree.
If you say the well costs 5 pts (which is becoming a mantra) then you have to add points to things that add and/or bring back stuff into your army. Following that logic I expect to see 2 wells on every list... it's 10pts for 2 great guns + whatever else they bring.
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Post by onijet01 on Nov 5, 2018 14:26:24 GMT
Ok, so if recursion forces the opponent to kill 10 extra models your army wasn't bigger? I disagree. If you say the well costs 5 pts (which is becoming a mantra) then you have to add points to things that add and/or bring back stuff into your army. Following that logic I expect to see 2 wells on every list... it's 10pts for 2 great guns + whatever else they bring. Okay. Points are frakkin stupid to compare. My god players hang ups on points. Lets try this differently. Each theme in game can bring a free model(s) to the table. On average players tend to take 3 free models to the game from theme benifits. The well is low enough cost that no mater the theme, a user of the well can gain 1 free model. Making average themes for circle run... 3 (extra theme models) plus 1 (extra non theme model) Recusion brings no free models to a theme, but instead returns models who started in the list. Average recusion per game is about 4 to 7 returned models outside the following per game. exeptions, Cryx, helmouth, blockhouse, menoth, skorne Three factions noted because of faction identity (skorne due to one part of faction.) The argument of points is stupid as additional models are just extra bodies. Looking at it as bodies literally stops the argument. And i dont want to bring up utility solos in lists they are not part of. That is another headache i dont want
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 5, 2018 14:36:20 GMT
Counter-play exists for recursion (LOTS of it, for that matter). Counter-play does not exist for the Well's free solo. This is and always has been the crux of the argument.
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Post by jisidro on Nov 5, 2018 15:52:04 GMT
Points are frakkin stupid to compare. My god players hang ups on points. Yes, points matter. Noone cares about Behemoth because it's 25pts... make it 20pts and suddenly either it is broken or other 20pt stuff is not good enough. It's the only thing that is the same across all factions. And i dont want to bring up utility solos in lists they are not part of. That is another headache i dont want This ship ha sailed... I'll repeat once more... The current mantra is it is a 5pt model with the logic that you bring in a 5pt solo of which there is 1. Added to the supposed 5pt model the flexibility is then brought up... but it is a: 8pt model if you bring in a Gallows Grove (A likely choice) or a war wolf (Sounds unlikely) 7pt model Stone Shaper (Broken? Good enough? Depends?) 6pt model Wayfarer, Night Witch, Reeve, Blood Shaman, Shaman (Much more likely with Magic weapons, Hunter's Mark, Harmounious and Spell Slave) 5pt model White Mane (Doesn't make sense outside DH?) So, yeah... it depends... just like recursion depends, just like most abilities depend on each game.
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Post by onijet01 on Nov 5, 2018 16:49:37 GMT
Jisidro you are wrong. Points are not the only thing the same across all factions. Free theme models are as well Why get so hung up on how others look at the game?
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