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Post by newangel on Oct 28, 2018 11:50:06 GMT
The surprise update alongside the Tharn CID changes has me intrigued. I'm seeing a lot of potential for some lesser used Warlocks now becoming more viable (or potentially popular Warlocks opening up their lists a bit) so I was hoping to create a discussion about how to make the most of the theme. I guess I'll start by putting forward some of my thoughts.
Since we now get the free points for minion units it makes sense to go for a Warlock who has debuffs rather than buffs (since Minion units won't be able to use them), or Warlocks whose spells/feats aren't reliant on models being friendly faction. That said if it's a Warlock who offers a lot to their battlegroup there is also potential there (shame that Kromac1 and Wurmwood aren't Blackclads or they'd be near the top of my list for sure).
Tanith in particular stands out for me as she's pretty allergic to gunlines. Taking 3 units of Valkyries seems like a great way to open her up alongside a reasonable sized battlegroup. There's probably room for Blessed Woldwyrds and Battle Engines in the list which seems exciting, and you get to keep the Blackclads as your primary Scything Touch targets. I don't see any bad choices, but I'm also not sure on the overall strength of the list.
Morvahna1 is another good choice, but I am worried by the lack of viable infantry to take advantage of her recursion and Armor buff. I personally don't rate Druids or Mist Riders highly with her (which means relying on Minion units), but Mortality may make it work regardless. It may be worth some table time for testing.
Mohsar is also probably viable though I don't really play with him and don't find him intriguing. I'm sure there's some strength there, it's just not my style.
Krueger2 has always been minion friendly and additional shield guards may help him play a little more aggressively, as well as protecting the key pieces he wants to keep getting value from. Unsure if it's better than Bones for him, though a lot of the tools remain the same and he has some access to new ones. Absolutely worth testing.
Krueger1 seems to enjoy the list as well, though I'd advocate going battlegroup heavy since he handles infantry well on his own and delivers his army intact. Shield guards may not seem like an absolute necessity, but it does stop the accurate, powerful hits that do get through, especially those with KD effects. Krueger also loves spending his stack so shield guards and sac-pawn do help in that regard.
Una2 also gets to work on her battlegroup with her upkeeps while staying safe. Being able to take Griffins AND the Battle Engine with Woldwyrds seems perfect, though probably cost prohibitive. Worth experimenting with and seeing if this can be made viable.
I personally want to start with Tanith and go from there. If anyone has more input or other thoughts or ideas I'll appreciate it. Let's get a discussion started!
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Oct 28, 2018 14:18:24 GMT
So I’ve been looking at this since the update dropped, but no matter what I do I find that the limitations are still too big, and each caster I look at can do better in a different theme.
Krugs2 is a good first look, but goes wY better with Boned. Morv1 looks great, but does everything better in Devourers, unless you desperately want geomancied mortality. Mohsar looks pretty, but really struggles to takes shooting he wants in addition to the needed minion points, pulling him again to either Devourers or wolf sworn.
Tanith is probably the closest, but if you’re going battlegroup heavy you’re not getting free points, and if you’re infantry heavy she does it better with wolfsworn.
I want to love this change, but I don’t think it’s viable without making the minions friendly faction, or just fixing the damned druids
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Post by jisidro on Oct 28, 2018 14:23:42 GMT
Fastest way would be to add wurmwood to secret masters. He is an all offensive warlock who doesn't care about FF at all.
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Post by Trollock on Oct 28, 2018 16:29:38 GMT
The change opens up some fun different lists, but i really doubt anything is close to competitive.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Oct 28, 2018 18:03:52 GMT
The change opens up some fun different lists, but i really doubt anything is close to competitive. My feelings in a nutshell
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Post by Trollock on Oct 28, 2018 19:15:54 GMT
Tried building a list for krueger 2. Felt even worse than i feared
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 28, 2018 22:11:20 GMT
I am thinking of running it with 4 of our casters:
Mohsar, Tanith, Morvannah1 And Krueger2.
My thought process has mostly been Mohsar and Krueger2: I think there’s some cute jank with the lessers. Rorsh and Brine Loves TK And Gallows. He gets a 16” Threat not counting Gallows. You can take the new croak Lesser for easy access to rage, and you can take Valkaries for other shenanigans. There’s also Brun and Lug, who appreciate the Threat extension and defensive tech. I don’t know if it’s worth it over a Bones Build, but it could be a thing.
As for Mohsar, he likes the minion Units. Valkaries make great Second wave units and slaughtehousers have excellent synergy with sunhammer. Brigands and croaks appreciate CoS, and you can run a sweet assassination build using stones plus UA and the winions shooting package. Here’s a list I came up with that I think I’m gonna try a bit:
Mohsar the Desertwalker - WB: +27 - Woldwyrd - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Woldwyrd - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Wild Argus - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Argus Moonhound - PC: 6 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2)
Gallows Grove - PC: 2 Gallows Grove - PC: 2 Blackclad Wayfarer - PC: 0 Blackclad Wayfarer - PC: 0 Swamp Gobber Chef - PC: 1
Druids of Orboros - Leader & 5 Grunts: 12 - Druid of Orboros Overseer - PC: 0 Farrow Razorback Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 5 Farrow Razorback Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 5 Shifting Stones - Leader & 2 Grunts: 3 - Stone Keeper - PC: 2 Lynus Wesselbaum & Edrea Lloryrr - Lynus & Edrea: 5 Farrow Brigands - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Farrow Brigand Warlord - PC: 4 Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers - Bokor & 9 Grunts: 10 Boil Master & Spirit Cauldron - Boil Master & Spirit Cauldron: 5
So you get a 18” Bark assassination threat from the keeper Mirage + Walk + Port + Sands. You get Druids who provide KD as an accuracy fixer, or pushes to buy you turns of shooting. You get Shamblers and the pot for refillable sac pawns AND a nice contesting screen. Linus and Edrea remove clouds, as well as Applied knowledge on the Razorbacks and Moonhound helps you ignore stealth on key targets.
Overall I think this kind of gunline is probably better in Devo Host, but it’s worth trying just because it starts getting me exposed to potential combos that are here we just haven’t seen yet.
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Post by gobber on Oct 28, 2018 23:55:50 GMT
Definitely a lot of interesting combinations to think through. One that came to mind is using multiple gatorman husks to improve the Druid cloud wall. Any shots at the druids in the clouds get sac pawned to the husk behind them, which then hyper aggressives forward and sprays down the target (and the overseer gives the druids immunity to husk sprays/explosions)
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vlad
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 53
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Post by vlad on Oct 29, 2018 3:42:34 GMT
I see potential with Morvahna1 and fail to see how Devourer’s Host “does everything better”, as two Wardens and Brennos leave just about the right amount of points for three free options, and Wardens can really enable a lot of good Minion shooting options, as well as occasionally shoot an Eruption of Life as well. Not saying Secret Masters is necessarily better for her, but I feel it warrants some testing.
The biggest issue is the limited number of options to trigger her feat, but I feel that the feat is more of an occasionally nice bonus then the prime focus of her gameplay.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 29, 2018 3:56:37 GMT
gobber, didn’t even consider how Druids are immune to husks entirely. The more I brainstorm with Mohsar, the more I wonder if Slaughterhousers + Valkaries are a solid build. Valks* deliver the slaughterhousers who murder all the heavies if they can get there. *edited for autocorrect*
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Post by gobber on Oct 29, 2018 5:07:44 GMT
gobber , didn’t even consider how Druids are immune to husks entirely. The more I brainstorm with Mohsar, the more I wonder if Slaughterhousers + Valkaries are a solid build. Balls deliver the slaughterhousers who murder all the heavies if they can get there. Haha, autocorrect doesn't like "valks" But yes I've been looking at a lot of similar lists (almost invariably also including razorbacks).
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Post by Trollock on Oct 29, 2018 6:38:43 GMT
macdaddyThe lessers do not count towards free points. Its almost like running no theme at that point imo
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 29, 2018 12:38:56 GMT
macdaddyThe lessers do not count towards free points. Its almost like running no theme at that point imo I mean honestly it’s not like we are really getting much out of the free stuff though. We have the wayfarer and the stoneshaper as free options.l that are more than 2 points. Maybe a Wilder or Druid UA...So your not missing much by ignoring freebies. Maybe 4-8 points?
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Post by streetpizza on Oct 29, 2018 14:03:37 GMT
gobber , didn’t even consider how Druids are immune to husks entirely. The more I brainstorm with Mohsar, the more I wonder if Slaughterhousers + Valkaries are a solid build. Valks* deliver the slaughterhousers who murder all the heavies if they can get there. *edited for autocorrect* I really like the Mohsar + slaughter housers combo. Sunhammer does so much to enable what the housers bring to the table its nuts. One interaction I haven't seen people proposing is pKaya in SM. Yes I know, I know pKaya being what she is but occultation on mist riders lets you set a cloudwall reasonably far foward and then you can back it up with a decent battle group that always port back behind the wall. Tack on the shamblers for sack pawn targets and back up the cloud with slaughter housers or other hard hitting minions and there might be a list there. Tannith+mist riders is awesome. Affliction means that every e-leap automatically kills and the accuracy bonus is exactly what the riders want. Loki helps with heavy fishing and then minions it up to fill in the gaps. For Morv1 I see building her 100% gunline style. Either mist riders take restoration just for the armor buff or you put it on druids and then add in double brigands for pow 16 guns or croak raiders for those sweet boosted pow 13's. The cloud wall while not great does help deliver both units. Battle group should be Brennos+warden+wyrds. One interaction people should remember for Morv1 is putting restoration on shifting stones and keeping them near her. Yes you don't get to regrow them but having arm 20, 5 wound, sac pawn targets for only 3pts that follow your caster around is a good play. Its even better than relying shield guards.
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Post by brotem on Oct 29, 2018 15:31:24 GMT
Tannith+mist riders is awesome. Affliction means that every e-leap automatically kills and the accuracy bonus is exactly what the riders want. Sadly Affliction's 1 damage on failed ARM crack goes of only on direct hits. So blasts, e-leaps won't work.
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