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Post by josephkerr on Nov 8, 2018 22:51:11 GMT
Double Post
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Post by josephkerr on Nov 8, 2018 22:56:30 GMT
Spammable bulldoze? On cheap lights or multiple models? No other caster can do that? Axis and Siege would like a word with you (as mentioned by Xintas). +SPD feat on a pulse broke? I'm pretty sure that's in line with other feats that provide +SPD (Axis and Kozlov for example). Does it need to be an aura; no. Does it provide too much? Maybe, it could possibly be dropped back to +2;+2. Also, comparing ossrum's defensive feat to an offensive feat is like comparing apples to oranges. Hey they're both feats! Good job, "pretty stupid, right?" A more meaningful comparison would be between two defensive feats or even two similar feats. There are hybrid feats, and most of these tend to be inconsistent in aura vs pulse across the board (Axis vs Damiano for example). And yes I compared Axis and Ossrum's feat earlier which is an inconsistency in my claim above but shows that for the +SPD component, it's in line with other casters and makes sense (good luck handling +SPD on an aura). 6 point lights the problem? They have proportionally (about) less boxes than other lights have in the game; and similar armor. So what's the problem here? Buffing armor with a feat then jamming a problem because it's a pulse? Isn't that a pretty standard play with armor feats? His army without his feat is no more tanky than other ARM-focused lists. As far as other Rhulic casters: the other two "never" see tournament play? I'm pretty sure that's factually false. Gorten has seen success recently and has always been viable. Don't other factions have casters that don't regularly see play or no play at all as well? How do you objectively measure how hard or easy it is to build a list for a caster? How do you objectively measure if a caster is too good or does something "too well" vs good/well enough or just the right amount of "too"? Maybe the other casters don't do their job well enough and should rise to the challenge? Or maybe they are designed to do other, different things and can't do certain things as well as him? So Ossrum is above this hypothetical curve of power? I haven't seen such a curve and again, he's in line with other casters of other factions, so what's the problem? So I should suggest that other casters that see normal/regular or "too" regular tournament play are also overpowered because they can run the same stuff the other warcasters available can run? There are plenty of solutions and counters to what he can do or what he brings to the table. Don't want to tech against something your army is weak against? I guess that defeats the whole purpose of a 2 list system. This post sums up beautifully why Khadorans lost their minds at 1 point increases to 2 jacks. What nerf “objectively” needs to happen, cause it sure as hell aint most of them. I hear a soft chorus singing the lament of Haley 1. Maybe Ossrum gets nerfed, but its impossible to prove something “needs” a nerf via analytics. Even tournament placings dont mean anything. PP does what it wants and only sometimes consults the player base. If Ossrum gets nerfed, I don’t expect you to suddenly see the light that he was hyper nerfable the whole time. He’s nerfed and you”re wondering why.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Nov 9, 2018 0:14:38 GMT
does somebody who has u on ignores know if u tag dem or quote dem? cuz i dunno if they do knows or not
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Post by michael on Nov 9, 2018 0:55:32 GMT
This post sums up beautifully why Khadorans lost their minds at 1 point increases to 2 jacks. What nerf “objectively” needs to happen, cause it sure as hell aint most of them. Khadoran players lost their minds about the Juggernaut, chiefly, and to a much lesser degree, the Marauder, because after fifteen years and two editions of useless Khador jacks they had finally gotten those right.I was actually okay with the Marauder PC increase, right up until the point when the Blockhouse dropped significantly in cost, and other CID structures started to follow suit. The thinking observer’s analysis of the Marauder and Juggernaut PC increases was that they were sacrificed to make the Berserker chassis more attractive. Except, of course, the Berserker chassis still isn’t all that attractive to Khador players. They ought not have tried to price them like light warjacks — because they’re really not, thanks to the lack of utility effects and the higher ARM and boxes compared to other lights — and should have instead kept them at ~PC 10 but gave them useful abilities to make them compete with the unchanged Marauder and Juggernaut. Also, it sure would be nice for Behemoth to go back to 24 points, in light of everybody getting over the new edition shock and awe of “holy crap a Khador player put more than one warjack on the table at once, what do we do?!?!!!1!!1!111!”, and with character beasts and jacks coming down in price in every single CID since then... Because Behemoth sure as heck isn’t 73.5% of a Victor... : p
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Nov 9, 2018 1:09:47 GMT
"Ossrum is no worse than Skarre 1" is not exactly ironclad evidence that he's not broken. Yes, other S-Tier casters can and do beat him. As do A-Tier casters when they have good answers. That doesn't prove much. Still, what Cryx gets away with isn't the point here. They shouldn't either, and even though you will never have as much presence in the S-Tier, two wrongs don't make a right. The problem with Ossrum is not just that he polishes turds too well. He does, and that actually is something that gets out of hand for other casters too sometimes. But it's more than that. This is not just one of those cases like Kolgrima or Skarre 3 who don't do any one thing that breaks the game but the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and their tuning and synergies are just too good in general. Yes, casters will always vary in relative power level (and that can shift over time) but there is such a thing as being too far above or below the curve, even without the kind of specific problems that Ossrum has. And he does have them. Ossrum is both over-tuned in general and broken in specific at the same time. He does things that no caster should be able to do. Spammable Bulldoze should not happen. (Maybe as half of a feat for a different caster, like Madrak 2 does with Overtake + Berserk, which the Devs are otherwise careful to never allow.) Especially not on 6-point warjacks and combined with Energizer, Tactician and Ossrum's feat, which is already too good just on its own... This adds up to something so clearly not okay that I honestly can't understand how you can defend it. Yes, there are degrees of counterplay available- IF you happen to have teched for them, and it's not as simple as playing more infantry. Back to his feat, granting +3 SPD and ARM on a pulse is highly problematic, as noted above. Feats tend to work in certain ways for a reason. Imagine if Grim 1's feat were a pulse and Impalers always had Smite instead of only on crits, and they were 7 points each. Obviously pretty stupid, right? Well so is the ability to put +3 SPD and ARM on your whole army then run models that were already pretty tanky past the 30" inch line top of 2 and they keep the +3 ARM. It's too easy for Ossrum to build lists that are too hard to answer and make for lopsided games and list chicken scenarios. The facts that a) he can do this in two different themes with two very different lists and b) that the other Rhulic casters never see tournament play at all only add to the realization that the problem is not the cheap jacks, it's the overpowered caster. Only way an Ossrum nerf would be an "alright thing" would be to nerf the top 3-4 casters from EVERY other faction from an "s" to "a" at most because honestly mercs don't have much going for them. I mean we have some solid B casters I feel that pair well with other casters, but I still don't think you could get away from having as many top tier answers in other factions and take one of the few top tier casters in mercs and expect it to be fair. You said that "what other caster's doesn't make it right" well until they get nerfed we need something to answer them. The fact we have like one really solid answer (as seen by the over prevalence of him at tournaments) means that if anything Mercs either needs MORE answers like Ossrum, OR everyone else can get nerfed down at the same time or first.
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Zeykk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 135
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Post by Zeykk on Nov 9, 2018 1:24:31 GMT
And really, half of your Wall of Text is arguing against things I didn't even say and in some cases even expressly tried to explain I was not saying. I chose my sig for good reason, after all, but it's never more difficult to get someone to understand something when they want so badly not to. I'm glad you have better insight into my state of mind than myself! I have an opinion. My opinion is that Ossrum doesn't need a nerf. Nothing that has been presented has changed that opinion. I am open to having that opinion changed. Nothing that has been presented has changed my opinion. From what has been said I would concede that Bulldoze needs a nerf, not Ossrum (and probably will if the Satyr typo is any foreshadowing).
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Zeykk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 135
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Post by Zeykk on Nov 9, 2018 1:29:34 GMT
This post sums up beautifully why Khadorans lost their minds at 1 point increases to 2 jacks. What nerf “objectively” needs to happen, cause it sure as hell aint most of them. I hear a soft chorus singing the lament of Haley 1. Maybe Ossrum gets nerfed, but its impossible to prove something “needs” a nerf via analytics. Even tournament placings dont mean anything. PP does what it wants and only sometimes consults the player base. If Ossrum gets nerfed, I don’t expect you to suddenly see the light that he was hyper nerfable the whole time. He’s nerfed and you”re wondering why. I'm not saying he's not nerfable. All casters are nerfable for x or y reason. If Ossrum does get a nerf, I will know why right then and there. The dynamic update documents tend to explain why a change has occurred. So don't worry!
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 9, 2018 7:51:19 GMT
"Ossrum is no worse than Skarre 1"...... Only way an Ossrum nerf would be an "alright thing" would be to nerf the top 3-4 casters from EVERY other faction from an "s" to "a" at most because honestly mercs don't have much going for them. I mean we have some solid B casters I feel that pair well with other casters, but I still don't think you could get away from having as many top tier answers in other factions and take one of the few top tier casters in mercs and expect it to be fair. You said that "what other caster's doesn't make it right" well until they get nerfed we need something to answer them. The fact we have like one really solid answer (as seen by the over prevalence of him at tournaments) means that if anything Mercs either needs MORE answers like Ossrum, OR everyone else can get nerfed down at the same time or first. I mostly agree, even if that's easier said than done. I do think that even some things that got through CID will have to be walked back a bit eventually but buffing the weaker stuff is always easier to swallow than nerfing the best stuff. That's understandable. That said, it could never literally be each faction's 3 best casters as not everyone even has any S-Tier, and nerfs are naturally reserved for when they are needed most. All of that is fine. I can list things in Trolls that I still think could use some help, like pretty much all of Kriel Company. I can also think of things that are probably a little too good, like Kolgrima, Madrak 1, and the Battle Bears. It's just that trying to buff everything will always lead to some things getting over-tuned and other things being left in the dust, and all of the players in a constant arms race of power creep that is inherently unsustainable.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 9, 2018 8:32:06 GMT
I also understand that just because something moves the meta does not mean that it warps the meta unduly or in ways that become problematic either in list building or at the table. And "broken" is not a synonym or superlative of "overpowered." In game design things are broken when they break the game by screwing up its mechanics; not just doing things differently, but making them cease to function well or at all. It's possible for a model to be overpowered without being truly broken or even broken without being overpowered.
The problem with Ossrum is that he's both. You just shouldn't be able to wipe your ass with the opponent's positioning so much, so easily, and with such impunity. That breaks the game because it ruins such a huge part of strategy. Combine that with his overpowered and broken feat, and Tactician, and the rest of his spell list and he can often just brute force a win that throws the actual game out the window if the opponent doesn't have a good answer, the likes of which are not necessarily ubiquitous.
To sum up, Ossrum has to be teched against in ways that even whole factions can struggle with and he often makes for lopsided, unfun, and uninteresting games unless you happen to have answers in ways that don't tip the scales totally in your favor instead.
The most interesting games that I have seen with Ossrum would not have been adversely impacted by the changes that I would like to see.
1) His feat should be an aura and not a pulse, as that has proven too powerful and too easy to break. He can feat and then walk straight backward and even throw in Engerizer for a total of a 9-inch walk to bravely run away while you're dealing with +3 SPD and ARM on his whole army. Can you not see how asinine that is? If it must be a pulse, then it should be brought in line with feats that are, like Kozlov and Grissel 2. Pathfinder, Unyielding, and +2 SPD would be much fairer than +3 ARM & SPD on top of the rest of a kit that is already very strong.
2) Unstoppable Force should cost 1 and target a single warjack at RNG 6, much like Return Fire and Ragnor's Dig In spell do. That is far more reasonable, and as I said, I don't mind hitting Axis with this at all. This way it's there if he really needs it, but he can't spam it ridiculously.
From there, we would just have to make sure that the 2x Crawler lists are not a problem, but I'm sure that nerfing the feat would at least help.
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mhean
Demo Gamer
Posts: 16
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Post by mhean on Nov 9, 2018 9:05:09 GMT
I don't really care about Osrum being nerfed or not. I just want answers in my faction to help me deal with his enormous threat range (19 for spray bunnies, 22 for FFE battle engine) and high armor defensive feat turn. But if I can't have those answers, then yeah, I hope for a nerf of Osrum. That's however purely whislisting from myself.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Nov 9, 2018 13:58:04 GMT
So Troll, it seems like we are having some definition differences on top of not agreeing about the state of the game.
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems above like you said you agree that the top quarter or so of every faction could use a nerf. This to me says that you are dissatisfied with general game balance (not arguing that it is perfect, just pointing it out), at least in the sense that the gap between the top and the bottom are so high, and that there are matchups that are just hard counters.
Zeykk and I seem to be taking the tack that, given current game balance, Ossrum is neither unanswerable or overpowered when compared to other top tier casters in every other faction. He asks a particular question very well ("How do you deal with a bunch of heavy armor for a turn, and some real staying power spread out across a large number of models for the rest of the game?"), but your opinion seems to be (again, just what I'm getting from the state of the discussion) that any caster should be able to play into him and have a chance.
Frankly, I don't think that's a reasonable stance for this game, especially given the fact that competitive play is so aware of it that the format is 2 or 3 list with choices after seeing what your opponent brought as options. There are always going to be casters/lists that ask a question in such a way that certain lists just cannot win (e.g. Magnus2 heavies going first is a really easy way to lose on scenario for 90% of lists).
It seems that our opinions about the game make it impossible for us to agree, because I am fine with the power level of different casters being higher/lower and the existence of "hard counter" lists, whereas that seems to be the entire basis of your belief that Ossrum (despite all objective information provided) is somehow too good to exist in the game.
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 11, 2018 21:37:05 GMT
I mean i get that dorfs are die hards but TBH its weird to have this thread going but not a steelhead CID one.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Nov 12, 2018 0:03:54 GMT
I mean i get that dorfs are die hards but TBH its weird to have this thread going but not a steelhead CID one. wate either a one week or til january
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Nov 12, 2018 13:55:39 GMT
Steelheads also have fewer glaring problems and a smaller model count.
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Post by Korianneder on Nov 12, 2018 14:24:45 GMT
Steelheads also have fewer glaring problems and a smaller model count. And steelheads don't have moarbarmu.
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