gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Oct 19, 2018 15:49:31 GMT
I'd actually just make it an ability, so the minimal fury savings isn't so egregious:
Once per turn, a warbeast in this models battlegroup in its control range can cast its Animus without being forced.
Now it can't be dispelled, it doesn't cost fury on your initial turn, makes it worth your time regardless of the beasts animus cost, and lets you change which beast uses it without having to recast it.
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Post by illrede on Oct 19, 2018 17:30:55 GMT
illrede, in your opinion, what would it do to Zaal1 if Awakened Spirit became a cost 3 range control (or command) spell that reduced the cost of animi by 1 to a minimum of 0? I imagine it would make him a much more obvious choice to take no Beast Handlers and let him manage a greater number of support beasts easily. I don't have a problem with Awakaned as is, but it is a bit underwhelming on him. If I need to drop it, it gets dispelled or it's carrier dies, there's rarely a reason to recast it. That seems unnecessarily complicated for that purpose; I am assuming that it's an upkeep and control range. It'd probably be more interesting for a melee battlegroup.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Oct 22, 2018 19:19:55 GMT
So CiD is officially over.
General thoughts are good. I can't tell where Makeda3 will land so that's hard to gauge. Changed to Gargantua, Bronzeback, Canoneer, immortals, and Supreme Guardian are all welcome. Concerned that Novitiates will just end up being attachments for SG as their tough bubble is nearly impossible to keep functioning. Soldier still has no place for me over Titans, Sentinel somehow got worse. Ancestral Guardians still never see any function beyond making my Immortals faster.
All in all, I'm mostly happy with the changes. Almost everything got better, and the stuff that didn't I never used anyway. I'd love a reason to play my Reptile Hounds, or Nihilators, or Cataphracts, but that's about it. It could be so much worse.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 22, 2018 21:40:58 GMT
I am actually really concerned that after it all falls out if the SG is allowed in masters of war that masters ends up being just better.
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Post by illrede on Oct 22, 2018 22:40:52 GMT
I am actually really concerned that after it all falls out if the SG is allowed in masters of war that masters ends up being just better. I think that it would depend on what you want to do. Immovable Object with some Tough on the one hand, Warrior model Takedown on the other. You can argue that one beats the other (although with the lists I have built, I'm pretty sure my Zaal2 Exalted list beats my Zaadesh Masters of War list as things stand right now), but I can see keeping their rolls as lists distinct.
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Post by sludgeogre on Oct 23, 2018 2:07:52 GMT
I am actually really concerned that after it all falls out if the SG is allowed in masters of war that masters ends up being just better. I'm only worried that Makeda2 with a buttload of Swordsmen and Cetrati will be bonkers. Xerxis1 also has some really insane potential to abuse it. I think it's going to be fine, but yes, those lists might end up being better than the output Immortals give. The things that make me really excited for Immortals are Direct Spirits with all the casters and Abidan. He's such a baller. Throwing Storm Rager on him or a fully loaded AG sounds like too much fun. Masters of War is pretty straight foward and kinda boring compared to that. If only you could bring back cats, then it would be dumb.
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Post by illrede on Oct 23, 2018 3:32:56 GMT
See, here's what I think is going to be the thing about "turning on" Abidan. When people know they have to take out all of your AGs? Maybe even by RFP, will them scattered across the table, and all in a single turn? They can do it.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Nov 14, 2018 11:46:09 GMT
After playing 2 immortal units with a supreme guardian for 2 months now I am even more worried the exalted theme will not be a competitive option.
I have found that the immortals at 11/17 die very quickly to most other units. Pow 13 is serviceable but struggles into more than 2 heavies. The AG hitting power is limited while their speed is a weakness. The soul requirements of the list are difficult to work with
The synergies of the list are thematic but are also very needed. All of my opponents have had an incidental tool to remove some synergy out of the list. Either they have scalpels to remove the immortals ca or they can kill the supreme guardian before it engages effectively or they can remove the ancestral guardians or Hakaar. Losing these pieces has proven to be catastrophic to the lists ability to continue to fight
In most of my games I have felt imperial war host competes with the list directly as a turtle replaces the immortal units the Krea comes for free while the hitting power of the list remains approximately equivalent.
I am going to drop the list for a masters of war list for the next couple of months to get a feel for the Supreme Guardian’s effect on that list’s power. I do not own swordsmen with CA so my first few games wil not run them but I may proxie them to get a feel for how they fit into the list later
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Nov 14, 2018 11:57:19 GMT
Well there's your problem: You played the battle engine faction with only one battle engine.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Nov 14, 2018 13:23:39 GMT
Well there's your problem: You played the battle engine faction with only one battle engine. I have very seriously considered 2 supreme guardians could be the correct way to play exalted and I may proxy the second one again soon. But my mind almost immediately goes to masters of war with 2 supreme guardians instead of exalted
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Post by sludgeogre on Nov 14, 2018 17:30:18 GMT
After playing 2 immortal units with a supreme guardian for 2 months now I am even more worried the exalted theme will not be a competitive option. I have found that the immortals at 11/17 die very quickly to most other units. Pow 13 is serviceable but struggles into more than 2 heavies. The AG hitting power is limited while their speed is a weakness. The soul requirements of the list are difficult to work with The synergies of the list are thematic but are also very needed. All of my opponents have had an incidental tool to remove some synergy out of the list. Either they have scalpels to remove the immortals ca or they can kill the supreme guardian before it engages effectively or they can remove the ancestral guardians or Hakaar. Losing these pieces has proven to be catastrophic to the lists ability to continue to fight In most of my games I have felt imperial war host competes with the list directly as a turtle replaces the immortal units the Krea comes for free while the hitting power of the list remains approximately equivalent. I am going to drop the list for a masters of war list for the next couple of months to get a feel for the Supreme Guardian’s effect on that list’s power. I do not own swordsmen with CA so my first few games wil not run them but I may proxie them to get a feel for how they fit into the list later This is why I'm really looking at Makeda1 with two SG's to run in Exalted. Her feat makes sure that the stuff you need to stay on the table stays there and when you save an Immortal they get to hit whatever tried to kill them. Quicken means you don't feel quite as bad when an AG suddenly dies. Carnage means you don't have to boost nearly as much and you don't have to take Hakaar if you don't want to. Honestly with how the theme has shaken out I think the Zaal's are pretty weak in it as their toolkits aren't that great in the current meta (at least in my experience). I'm looking towards casters that can take more advantage of their strengths and more easily shore up their weaknesses, primarily in staying on the table. I also think two SG's is super vital, not only with non-Zaal casters for direct spirits, but because when your army gets quickly whittled away on an alpha, bringing back 6 Immortals is insanely strong.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Nov 14, 2018 17:53:19 GMT
I also think two SG's is super vital, not only with non-Zaal casters for direct spirits, but because when your army gets quickly whittled away on an alpha, bringing back 6 Immortals is insanely strong. Can you explain the revive on immortals comment? I have found this ability to be useless in exalted as the immortals that come back do not attack anymore.
A few questions Do you attack with the SG when you do this? What targets are you going for? When in the turn do you do this? What turns in the game is this viable? Who is the caster you ran the list with?
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bacon
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by bacon on Nov 14, 2018 18:02:41 GMT
After playing 2 immortal units with a supreme guardian for 2 months now I am even more worried the exalted theme will not be a competitive option. I have found that the immortals at 11/17 die very quickly to most other units. Pow 13 is serviceable but struggles into more than 2 heavies. The AG hitting power is limited while their speed is a weakness. The soul requirements of the list are difficult to work with The synergies of the list are thematic but are also very needed. All of my opponents have had an incidental tool to remove some synergy out of the list. Either they have scalpels to remove the immortals ca or they can kill the supreme guardian before it engages effectively or they can remove the ancestral guardians or Hakaar. Losing these pieces has proven to be catastrophic to the lists ability to continue to fight In most of my games I have felt imperial war host competes with the list directly as a turtle replaces the immortal units the Krea comes for free while the hitting power of the list remains approximately equivalent. I am going to drop the list for a masters of war list for the next couple of months to get a feel for the Supreme Guardian’s effect on that list’s power. I do not own swordsmen with CA so my first few games wil not run them but I may proxie them to get a feel for how they fit into the list later This is why I'm really looking at Makeda1 with two SG's to run in Exalted. Her feat makes sure that the stuff you need to stay on the table stays there and when you save an Immortal they get to hit whatever tried to kill them. Quicken means you don't feel quite as bad when an AG suddenly dies. Carnage means you don't have to boost nearly as much and you don't have to take Hakaar if you don't want to. Honestly with how the theme has shaken out I think the Zaal's are pretty weak in it as their toolkits aren't that great in the current meta (at least in my experience). I'm looking towards casters that can take more advantage of their strengths and more easily shore up their weaknesses, primarily in staying on the table. I also think two SG's is super vital, not only with non-Zaal casters for direct spirits, but because when your army gets quickly whittled away on an alpha, bringing back 6 Immortals is insanely strong. Unfortunately mak 1s feat only affects living models on the first part and living warrior models on the second. I haven't had a chance to try any games with it yet but I'm liking the looks of morg 3 and xekaar with the new solos in exalted. Morg really helps with their mobility and can control units via blind while xekaar can help damage fix with mortality while staying safe via channelers and during his feat turn with grave mist and Krea auras his army is fairly resistant to unboosted attacks.
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Post by sludgeogre on Nov 14, 2018 18:10:30 GMT
I also think two SG's is super vital, not only with non-Zaal casters for direct spirits, but because when your army gets quickly whittled away on an alpha, bringing back 6 Immortals is insanely strong. Can you explain the revive on immortals comment? I have found this ability to be useless in exalted as the immortals that come back do not attack anymore.
A few questions Do you attack with the SG when you do this? What targets are you going for? When in the turn do you do this? What turns in the game is this viable? Who is the caster you ran the list with?
They don't attack that round, but they are still vital for scenario, making the game last, and screening. I generally don't attack with the SG's until late game as they are super easy to kill most of the time. Under Zaal2 you can get them in there for a turn, but even then might lose them into the wrong list. I've found it to be viable through almost the whole game as it gives the list the staying power that I think we both agree can be pretty abysmal into some lists. The problem is that the output goes way down so you end up just churning for scenario the whole game and trying to keep your caster safe. It's not nearly as strong as stuff like Storm of the North was fresh out of CID or even Man o' War since their rules are just easier and more box-spam oriented, but it's fun to play and I think it's viable, although insanely positioning intense. I've only played it with Zaal2 and I'm not a fan of him. I haven't run it in a while as I think the theme benefit change is going to be massive (I play against Kolgrima a lot and Krueger2 at tournaments all the time) so I'm looking forward to that. Once all the tools are out and I can run it at tournaments I'll actually get a feel for if it's competitive or not, because right now I'm always practicing for team tournaments and I have to use my normal, legal lists.
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Post by sludgeogre on Nov 14, 2018 18:11:34 GMT
This is why I'm really looking at Makeda1 with two SG's to run in Exalted. Her feat makes sure that the stuff you need to stay on the table stays there and when you save an Immortal they get to hit whatever tried to kill them. Quicken means you don't feel quite as bad when an AG suddenly dies. Carnage means you don't have to boost nearly as much and you don't have to take Hakaar if you don't want to. Honestly with how the theme has shaken out I think the Zaal's are pretty weak in it as their toolkits aren't that great in the current meta (at least in my experience). I'm looking towards casters that can take more advantage of their strengths and more easily shore up their weaknesses, primarily in staying on the table. I also think two SG's is super vital, not only with non-Zaal casters for direct spirits, but because when your army gets quickly whittled away on an alpha, bringing back 6 Immortals is insanely strong. Unfortunately mak 1s feat only affects living models on the first part and living warrior models on the second. I haven't had a chance to try any games with it yet but I'm liking the looks of morg 3 and xekaar with the new solos in exalted. Morg really helps with their mobility and can control units via blind while xekaar can help damage fix with mortality while staying safe via channelers and during his feat turn with grave mist and Krea auras his army is fairly resistant to unboosted attacks. Blagh, always forget about that, nevermind then, lol. I'm also looking hard at Morg3. The Vessels are so massive for him it's insane.
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