|
Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 2, 2018 14:04:58 GMT
With warp str it is P+S 19 without outside factors like primal. Lets not unnecessarily muddy waters. Right, that's my bad. I was under the, wrong, assumption that the Stalker couldn't warp strength.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Oct 2, 2018 14:33:39 GMT
OP here - glad for the rational discussion. Again, wasn't about "overtuning ". It is that AC:
1) Allowed LOTS of casters to run it with no obvious clear favorite _AND_ amazing variations in it. Want to shoot? Well, take Vlad 1, double tankers, a chariot, bombers and then stuff. Want to melee? Grab an irusk? Want the MoW to deliver Sir Kill-a-lot? Then Butcher 3 behind MoWs? Want grace and toolkit and a high skill bar? Grab S3 or Andy2. Want to alph and hang on? Strakov1. Want to work on hotswapping Upkeeps and thinking 3 turns ahead? Strakov2. It is ALL there.
2) It didn't OP the meta. A critical factor was that it wasn't overtuned. Would have potentially been before the oppression tanker got dialed back from ridiculous to very very good. But the key thing is that it isn't a auto win into most list/list pairs. I don't THINK it has warped the meta - because people had to bring Armor cracking before to deal with bricks.
TO me 1+2 make for a very successful CID. And in that respect, PT really did fall down. While there are variants Anamag really does run it best with 1-2 other casters as possible bullpen candidates.
PS. I completely disagree about "Khador was OK before AC". We had very few good answers to control gun lines which could remove Winterguard and pikes by the handful and/or ruin the day of our SP 4 jacks. ONe didn't ALWAYS come up against such lists but when Khador did it essentially locked them out of the final tables. What AC did was provide a viable drop into those - from Steady/Study MoWs that get AM and effective SP 6 to the chariots to the tankers to weather out the shooting.
|
|
gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
|
Post by gordo on Oct 2, 2018 14:42:23 GMT
What? The week 3 Stalker is STR 11 with a POW 6 weapon, making it P+S 17, saying it's 19 is taking Primal for granted and then completely ignoring Rage on Wrastlers? With warp str it is P+S 19 without outside factors like primal. Lets not unnecessarily muddy waters. All of the other heavies he lists though have other advantages. - Legion heavies come with guns and high number of initials thus taking any buff very well. At 16 points the ravagore has an awesome gun and 3 melee initials, at 18 pts the carni has an assault spray and 3x initial with one of them at P+S 18, at 16 pts the sythean has 2x P+S 17 initials and a P+S 15. We're deffinitely in the same ball park here as the stalker at 17pts. - For skorne there is the bronze back with three initials and two of them are P+S 17 and he's got the armor + boxes +1 fury advantages to back him up. Seems pretty comparable to a stalker at 17pts. The Aradus soldier P+S 18 with 2x additional 15s and 16pts. Again we seem to be in the same ball park here - Wrastler comes with rage built in which is one of the best animi in the game. Its the same reason that the feral is 16pts in CID and not down around 14, ditto on the Mauler at 15 when he'd otherwise only be a 12/13 pt beast. War hog basically sits at fury 3 and 2xP+S 18 with a P+S 17. Seems fair at 15pts when compared to CID satyrs at 3 fury. Please do elaborate why you think the stalker should be an outlier at 19pts gordo? Remember it trades an initial attack and armor for the def and spd advantage and if you want to bring up the other warps then lets please consider the fact that it is P+S 17 and 15 then. Nope, not biting. If you don't see it, that's on you. To your credit, you don't need to after that ridiculous CiD, so I guess more power to you.
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Oct 2, 2018 14:54:36 GMT
With warp str it is P+S 19 without outside factors like primal. Lets not unnecessarily muddy waters. All of the other heavies he lists though have other advantages. - Legion heavies come with guns and high number of initials thus taking any buff very well. At 16 points the ravagore has an awesome gun and 3 melee initials, at 18 pts the carni has an assault spray and 3x initial with one of them at P+S 18, at 16 pts the sythean has 2x P+S 17 initials and a P+S 15. We're deffinitely in the same ball park here as the stalker at 17pts. - For skorne there is the bronze back with three initials and two of them are P+S 17 and he's got the armor + boxes +1 fury advantages to back him up. Seems pretty comparable to a stalker at 17pts. The Aradus soldier P+S 18 with 2x additional 15s and 16pts. Again we seem to be in the same ball park here - Wrastler comes with rage built in which is one of the best animi in the game. Its the same reason that the feral is 16pts in CID and not down around 14, ditto on the Mauler at 15 when he'd otherwise only be a 12/13 pt beast. War hog basically sits at fury 3 and 2xP+S 18 with a P+S 17. Seems fair at 15pts when compared to CID satyrs at 3 fury. Please do elaborate why you think the stalker should be an outlier at 19pts gordo? Remember it trades an initial attack and armor for the def and spd advantage and if you want to bring up the other warps then lets please consider the fact that it is P+S 17 and 15 then. Nope, not biting. If you don't see it, that's on you. To your credit, you don't need to after that ridiculous CiD, so I guess more power to you. I guess if what you say is true we'll be seeing stalkers everywhere and in large quantities then. I look forward to the coming stalkerpocalypse to prove you right.
|
|
|
Post by slaughtersun on Oct 2, 2018 15:27:35 GMT
One of the stalkers will be converted to gethoryx so the #stalkerapocalypse will be reduced to #stalkerapocalyspse-1stalker+1gethoryx.
|
|
|
Post by Azahul on Oct 2, 2018 16:09:52 GMT
- Wrastler comes with rage built in which is one of the best animi in the game. Its the same reason that the feral is 16pts in CID and not down around 14, ditto on the Mauler at 15 when he'd otherwise only be a 12/13 pt beast. War hog basically sits at fury 3 and 2xP+S 18 with a P+S 17. Seems fair at 15pts when compared to CID satyrs at 3 fury. Minor pet peeve of mine, but I've always compared the War Hog to the Mauler rather than the Satyrs. They've got the same defensive stats (well, barring the fact that the Mauler heals as it does work and the War Hog takes damage, so over the course of a game can easily be a not-inconsequential health difference of 4+ points), cost the same points, and if the Mauler casts Rage on itself and triggers the Chain Attack then they both make the same number of attacks. Except, obviously, the Mauler is vastly better because a) it doesn't always have to cast Rage itself to benefit from it, and b) it provides support for other models in the same army. Oh, and it hits a little bit harder on the non-chain attack swings, and has access to better non-Warlock support both defensively and offensively. Given the existence of Beasthandlers, the War Hog compares similarly unfavourably to the Gladiator (in that a Gladiator with Paingiver support can cast Rush on itself and have the same output as the War Hog, just with extra threat range) but factoring in external models in this comparisons is a fraught topic and the defensive profile starts to diverge. Still, I don't think it's hard to argue that the War Hog is a bit below par for its point cost. The only Satyr I can see it comparing to is the Riphorn, which trades the 2 points of POW for a free charge and Chain Attack (so potentially two more attacks than the War Hog), an extra point of armour, Pathfinder, and one less point cost. The others are all 20% cheaper by the Week 3 CID and are rather hard to compare. I play the War Hog a lot, but really only because it's my only option for a beater.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Oct 2, 2018 16:54:35 GMT
I want to express that I found the Armored Corps CID to be a miserable experience, with only moderate outcomes for a number of the models involved.
The level of anti-Khador trolling during that CID (and others!) was toxic.
The best thing the Armored Corps theme itself got was Advance Move. The reason the theme is popular is because it is currently the only Khador theme that can adequately combine melee, range, and scenario presence in one army. It’s possible to build balanced lists with it. It’s not a bad theme, but it’s also not nearly at the level of a lot of others that have gone through CID.
I’m not going to rehash my extensive feelings on this particular CID, because it is exhausting. All I choose to say right now is that a number of other CIDs started with “stuff is really good” and went up from there, while Armored Corps started with “two models are obviously good, and by the way here’s a bunch of inexplicable changes to other models not remotely related to Armored Corps, and also, we’re going to be hyper-cautious with any buffs and be actively hostile to a number of positive and reasonable suggestions, completely ignoring community input on some items for no explicable reason.” (See Man-o-War Kovnik’s drive.)
Demo Corps are barely palatable with their expensive character CA, and there’s zero reason to ever take multiple units at this time. Bombardiers came out in a good spot, except all of their abilities are tied to a CA, and I detest “auto-include” or “required” models so much.
But...anyway, stopping myself before I get too far into the weeds...
Too many of these other themes start out with free candy and handjobs and get better from there. They completely patch over the weaknesses of the models for exactly zero drawback or real cost. (“Oh no I have to take a solo to get X!”, except the theme only has 2 or 3 solos anyway, and you’re getting them for free just by taking models you were going to take.)
There are a few flat-out broken things that made it through despite protest. Chosen charging you on turn 2 if they get first turn and you advance out of your DZ more than 3”? That’s cool, but moving one rule off the Bombardier CA to the base unit would.... Gaaaah, okay, okay, stopping now...
|
|
Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
|
Post by Ganso on Oct 2, 2018 19:24:45 GMT
I agree with San's assessment that the ArmCorp CID achieved many goals. And I would add that I think PP should probably be aware of them so that it can be reproduced in future CIDs.
1.- Desirability: It made people want to put MoW on the table (fun factor is part of this point). 2.- Competitiveness: It is an army that has the tools to survive in the current Tournament scene. 3.- Depth: The army has an insane amount of options and viable builds across multiple Casters. 4.- Balance: Even with the previous 3 points above, nobody has to "Tech" for ArmCorp. It is not over some power curve, It is not breaking any rules, and it's allowing the opponent to play with their toys without special considerations for "what silver bullet model should I bring to deal with this thing?" 5.- Aesthetics: ArmCorp looks Firetrucking awesome fully painted on the Table. One of most consistently looking Theme Forces out there.
I frankly don't think Terrors or Devourer's Host hit those five points quite right. Specially points 3 and 4, because it seems to be "bring your most efficient option and watch how the Meta starts scratching their head on how to deal with you".
And also, yea, consistently begging the devs in the CID forums for a point efficient heavy that can 1 round a Khador Heavy is irrational and unrealistic.
Anyway, I think that if the Devs really tried to hit those 5 points each time, then CID will be much more successful than it currently is.
|
|
skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
|
Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 2, 2018 20:01:15 GMT
To the OP. Couldn't you view the fact that AC is playable with a high assortment of casters as a failing of CiD to produce a good outcome for Sorcha3? I know several Khador players who's opinion of her is that she's competitive garbage but fine in a non-competitive, or limited caster format. Because no matter what you want to do with her, somebody does that thing better. You can view the casters that have come out of CiD as over-tuned, (several of the brand new ones are) but is that a purposeful decision to create new meta problems and bogeymen? Needing new pieces to counter a new threat seems to be a big part of this game from a monetary standpoint. Or becoming the new threat.
To whoever wondered if the Exalted CiD was going to be a shnitsnow: maybe, but probably not. We've been told flat out we aren't getting a new caster, that's where a not inconsiderable amount of power comes from. See previous posts for details. Also, I fully expect the Supreme Guardian to go back into CiD. His rules were a placeholder because he was ready to go on sale months before the rest of the models in the CiD. It seems BAHI models are on their own unique schedule...
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 2, 2018 20:27:28 GMT
I think my biggest problem with CID is that it gives a false expectation that everything should be fixed.
In MK2 my faction had plenty of dross, but I just accepted that and moved on, now with CID there is an expectation it should all be fixed, and the fact it is not drives me irrationally mad
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Oct 2, 2018 20:39:35 GMT
To the OP. Couldn't you view the fact that AC is playable with a high assortment of casters as a failing of CiD to produce a good outcome for Sorcha3? I know several Khador players who's opinion of her is that she's competitive garbage but fine in a non-competitive, or limited caster format. Because no matter what you want to do with her, somebody does that thing better. You can view the casters that have come out of CiD as over-tuned, (several of the brand new ones are) but is that a purposeful decision to create new meta problems and bogeymen? Needing new pieces to counter a new threat seems to be a big part of this game from a monetary standpoint. Or becoming the new threat. To whoever wondered if the Exalted CiD was going to be a shnitsnow: maybe, but probably not. We've been told flat out we aren't getting a new caster, that's where a not inconsiderable amount of power comes from. See previous posts for details. Also, I fully expect the Supreme Guardian to go back into CiD. His rules were a placeholder because he was ready to go on sale months before the rest of the models in the CiD. It seems BAHI models are on their own unique schedule... 1) Sorscha3 won WTC Masters. Internet opinions in face of real data??? I choose data. Besides that, I have had decent luck with her as well. The only reason I moved away is that she was going to be a bit challenged in my local meta - with facing off at least 1 Northkin player. That said, I want to put her on the table again - as early as this weekend - since I think properly built she has SOME of the tools to take on CG (or at least as good as we can get). She is - I would argue - a high skill cap caster. You really do need to be on top of your game to get the most out of her tools (gun, Winters Wrath, proper choices for Stoke) compared to casters who are "easier". But even if we say that S3 is a "B+" caster that is OK - because she doesn't crowd out the rest of the stable (see Anamag or Seige2). To me that is the right place to hit with a faction CID - encouraging the tools to be tried out by a bunch of casters.
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Oct 2, 2018 20:47:30 GMT
To the OP. Couldn't you view the fact that AC is playable with a high assortment of casters as a failing of CiD to produce a good outcome for Sorcha3? I know several Khador players who's opinion of her is that she's competitive garbage but fine in a non-competitive, or limited caster format. Because no matter what you want to do with her, somebody does that thing better. You can view the casters that have come out of CiD as over-tuned, (several of the brand new ones are) but is that a purposeful decision to create new meta problems and bogeymen? Needing new pieces to counter a new threat seems to be a big part of this game from a monetary standpoint. Or becoming the new threat. It's still waaaay too early to call on Sorscha3. Take the WTC as an example. In the team event, there was one person using S3, and they lost every game. But in the solo masters Skathrex won all 5 matches using only Sorscha3. My gripe with Sorscha3 isn't her power level, it's that she's very strongly pigeonholed into Armoured Corps. We have no other caster that is so forcibly shoe-horned into a theme except maybe Zerkova2.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Oct 2, 2018 21:27:17 GMT
To the OP. Couldn't you view the fact that AC is playable with a high assortment of casters as a failing of CiD to produce a good outcome for Sorcha3? I know several Khador players who's opinion of her is that she's competitive garbage but fine in a non-competitive, or limited caster format. Because no matter what you want to do with her, somebody does that thing better. You can view the casters that have come out of CiD as over-tuned, (several of the brand new ones are) but is that a purposeful decision to create new meta problems and bogeymen? Needing new pieces to counter a new threat seems to be a big part of this game from a monetary standpoint. Or becoming the new threat. It's still waaaay too early to call on Sorscha3. Take the WTC as an example. In the team event, there was one person using S3, and they lost every game. But in the solo masters Skathrex won all 5 matches using only Sorscha3. My gripe with Sorscha3 isn't her power level, it's that she's very strongly pigeonholed into Armoured Corps. We have no other caster that is so forcibly shoe-horned into a theme except maybe Zerkova2. I would agree with that but I also think that people haven't had time to try her out in either Jaws (IF on Kayazy is a thing) or legion (ARM 23 is good as well). Yes yes. There are other IF casters - but not many bring such a solid cloud wall or have a good personal assassination threat with Freeze and Crit Slam on their weapon. Moreover, her in Jaws is both interesting and terrifying - as she CAN charge in, freeze something, and then windrush away if need be (or stay there to trigger flank).
|
|
skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
|
Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 2, 2018 21:29:10 GMT
I'm just going on what I know. I haven't paid much attention to S3, but what I'd heard wasn't very good. Also, not disqualifying the statement of S3 winning WTC Masters, but that's got to be a very strange collection of players and lists. Alternates, people who wanted to go but didn't have a team, all kinds of things.
|
|
|
Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 2, 2018 22:15:40 GMT
Sorscha3 being locked into AK is not unusual for casters released in this CID cycle. Siege2 isn't played outside of GD. Iona won't be played outside of Tharn. Anamag isn't played outside of PT. It's honestly more common than not for casters to be released with rules that force them into a single theme than it is for them to fit into two or more themes. Sorscha3 certainly isn't the worst off in that regard.
Also, I don't understand all of the panic about Siege2 being the best caster for GD, when that is manifestly not the case. Haley3 is far and away the best caster for that theme. Siege2 is certainly a strong contender for Master's pairs (and I think there's an argument to be made that Haley3 GD/Siege2 GD are one of the strongest pairs in Cygnar), but he's not exactly the caster who springs to mind when I see shit.
As for the Skorne CID, I fully expect it to be a shitshow. Since we're unlikely to see the Turtle nerfed, that's going to be a point of fixation for a lot of players, while the Skorne community as a whole is (with a few exceptions) laboring under a misapprehension that their faction is fundamentally broken, and only propped up by the turtle.
There are certainly things to be fixed in Exalted (Ancestral Guardians stand out to me as decidedly meh for being paragons of skorne martial virtue, and I hope that both Mordikaar and Makeda3 (and maybe Zaal2? he seems underwhelming) get buffs and/or a rework)...but the core of the theme (Immortals) is largely fine. Immortals are not a bad unit, they just suffer from being the only unit in the theme, which leads to inflexible list building, and a small pool of viable casters. Really, what the theme needs more than anything is to get access to a faster (or ranged) infantry option. Similarly, with a few exceptions (the Cannoneer, the Aradus Sentinel, potentially the Bronzeback), Skorne beasts are seeing play (and seeing success) at the highest levels of play.
|
|