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Post by Lord_Randall on Sept 30, 2018 11:29:23 GMT
If you have to split your BG because scenario geomanced root is unvaluable
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Post by jisidro on Sept 30, 2018 12:28:34 GMT
Don't forget the blood shaman can cast it as well.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Sept 30, 2018 14:17:21 GMT
I am curious how Loki at pow 16x3 is pillow fisted but a Riphorn at pow 15x1 16x2 isn't. Yeah we got problems against armskew in most lists but there are answers to it. I'm not really sure what numbers you are referring to there. Loki only has two initial attacks, both P&S 16 when he warps for strength. Assuming a charge then he would be able to buy three more P&S 16s. If he goes for the drag and warps for strength that's one POW 17 and one P&S 16 for his "initial" attacks with likely three more P&S 16s, no damage boosted (assuming you boost to hit the hook as you cannot afford to let it miss). The Riphorn meanwhile has an extra P&S 15 initial and and the potential for one more P&S 15 attack if you make the chain attack successfully. Unlikely on his own, but in a world where we're stacking primal and Divine Inspiration up landing the chain attack is much more likely against standard hard targets (and again with more attacks buffs go a longer way on the Riphorn). The Riphorn is only Fury 3, but he charges for free so charging only ever increases his damage output. At the very least 5 P&S 16 swings (one boosted damage) and one at P&S 15 (with the potential for an additional at P&S 15) should be outdamaging 1 POW 17 and 4 P&S 16s. It's not like Loki doesn't bring a lot to the table, but the Riphorn eeks out some more damage (and this is compounded when you have a couple buffs thrown into the mix) and manages to be a whopping 5 points cheaper while still being fairly durable with roots. Honestly 12/19/30 is a fantastic statline. The good old MK II Skorne split. Just an idea, though. I definitely want to try playing Baldur2 in DH and see how it goes with a few different battlegroup builds.
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Post by Trollock on Sept 30, 2018 14:50:04 GMT
The reason i like the idea of Loki is because he allows you to drag in something and kill it WITHOUT breaking up your brick. The idea is to take something, and not give anything back, since your beasts are very unlikely to die if bricked up. Lokis damage output is secondary to me. The opportunity to stay bricked is what i want in this particular list. Ps. I will play a game with the list tomorrow
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Post by elshinare on Sept 30, 2018 14:59:09 GMT
I am curious how Loki at pow 16x3 is pillow fisted but a Riphorn at pow 15x1 16x2 isn't. Yeah we got problems against armskew in most lists but there are answers to it. I'm not really sure what numbers you are referring to there. Loki only has two initial attacks, both P&S 16 when he warps for strength. Assuming a charge then he would be able to buy three more P&S 16s. If he goes for the drag and warps for strength that's one POW 17 and one P&S 16 for his "initial" attacks with likely three more P&S 16s, no damage boosted (assuming you boost to hit the hook as you cannot afford to let it miss). The Riphorn meanwhile has an extra P&S 15 initial and and the potential for one more P&S 15 attack if you make the chain attack successfully. Unlikely on his own, but in a world where we're stacking primal and Divine Inspiration up landing the chain attack is much more likely against standard hard targets (and again with more attacks buffs go a longer way on the Riphorn). The Riphorn is only Fury 3, but he charges for free so charging only ever increases his damage output. At the very least 5 P&S 16 swings (one boosted damage) and one at P&S 15 (with the potential for an additional at P&S 15) should be outdamaging 1 POW 17 and 4 P&S 16s. It's not like Loki doesn't bring a lot to the table, but the Riphorn eeks out some more damage (and this is compounded when you have a couple buffs thrown into the mix) and manages to be a whopping 5 points cheaper while still being fairly durable with roots. Honestly 12/19/30 is a fantastic statline. The good old MK II Skorne split. Just an idea, though. I definitely want to try playing Baldur2 in DH and see how it goes with a few different battlegroup builds. His hook is also PS16 that is 3 initials, if you are going for a charge then yeah sure, but you still spend the same amount of fury. In most cases you shouldn't be charging Loki, you should be dragging models in to get killed and cheating trades.
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Post by Trollock on Sept 30, 2018 15:03:26 GMT
elshinareIf you use drag you do not get your initial melee attacks though. You get the hook, then one ADDITIONAL attack. Then you can buy more attacks.
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Post by The Snark Knight on Sept 30, 2018 17:16:16 GMT
elshinareIf you use drag you do not get your initial melee attacks though. You get the hook, then one ADDITIONAL attack. Then you can buy more attacks. For some reason, this is also how it gets played at my LGS. I actually assumed he had some sort of rule that allowed him to make his melee initials after the hook, but then this came up... and I'm sure not seeing anything on the card that would indicate this.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Sept 30, 2018 17:41:06 GMT
You always bring Megalith with Baldur2. ALWAYS. He is not a negotiable piece of kit. Not only is the only geomancer available in theme (and thus, the only way you're realistically going to get more than 2 Roots of the Earth out in a given turn), he heals Baldur to offset his wurm tokens. While you CAN purge those off (and sometimes you have to, even with Megs), you really, really don't want to, because they let Baldur hit like a heavy in the endgame. I can...kind of...see the argument for Ghetorix, Riphorns, etc with Baldur2 (I think it's unlikely to catch on, though), but dropping Megalith isn't a viable option. What is it that you think makes him so nessecary? Sure, he is good but im not sure i see why he is an auto include. If your plan is to have lots of targets that need Roots, sure, he can provide that, but if you only plan on having roots on a couple of models, Baldur can take care of that himself. Is it the Geomancy crevasse that is the thing you value so highly?
As i still havent played Baldur 2 im genuinely curious, im not just looking to start an argument an argument It's not really crevasse per se (though crevasse is one reason why I think Bones is likely better - it's a spell he almost never casts himself, but which can swing matchups into infantry and (particularly) infantry that's vulnerable to RFP (Baldur2 Bones, for instance, can play into any non-Skarre1 Cryx, while if you take away the RFP option, he really struggles into Ghost Fleet, which has been seeing something of a resurgence. Really, the reasons why I find megalith so necessary (aside from his generally excellent statline, and the -5 potential DEF swing he brings for any caster) is, in roughly this order of importance: 1. The Healing. Baldur2 deals stacking damage to himself every round from the wurm tokens he accumulates. Megalith offsets that with his bond, and lets you safely stack tokens for ~4 turns (on average) before you really start having to worry about the damage. While you CAN purify the tokens, it's both often inconvenient from a positioning standpoint (SPD 5 means you often want Baldur to be charging something, while his reasonable combat stats mean that you often want him to be whacking something, and from a late-game attrition standpoint. Get 4 wurm tokens on Baldur, and he hits like a heavy (and hitting power is something the Baldur2 Bones list can struggle with a bit). Not something that's necessary in every matchups, but in about half of the games I play with Baldur, I find myself using him to clear something off my woldguardians, so that they can keep moving up the field. 2. The additional Roots of the Earth. Baldur2 is a fairly fury-starved caster, when it comes down to it. He's going to want to camp some fury most turns, he's going to want to drop a wall somewhere nearly every turn, and that means he's only getting off 1 Roots of the Earth (maybe 2). Considering that you typically want to have Baldur2 rooted on any given turn (assassination is almost always how you lose with Baldur2), that means you're going to have a hard time Rooting everything that needs it in a given turn. The Blood Shaman helps with that, but it's also a very fragile piece which your opponent is highly incentivized to remove (and if she's rooting frontline pieces, she's probably in range to BE killed), and again, it's only 1 more Roots of the Earth. Even if we're talking Ghetorix, Loki, Baldur2...that's 3 targets for Roots on most turns (to say nothing of, say, rooting the Tharn Ravager Chieftan to stop him getting sniped out, etc.) Of course, Megalith is also a model that wants Roots put on him, but he's also self-sufficient (unlike the others), and he can usually stand behind the frontlines and be relatively safe, even without Roots. 3. The Positioning flexibility. Roots of the Earth is a 6" Range spell, and Baldur can only be in one place at any given time. Typically, he wants to brick up, but more and more I'm finding that to be very difficult to manage while maintaining a scenario presence, especially since an opponent who knows how to play into Baldur will try to force you to break up the brick, rather than engaging you directly. Gallows Groves can help with this, but are fragile and don't do anything else for Baldur. Also, there are some matchups where Baldur just can't be that close to his front line without dying, and in those matchups, you want to be able to Roots the models that need Rooting. 4. Order of Activation flexibility: Roots is a spell that you want to cast after the target has activated. It can cause order of activation problems if Baldur is your sole/main source of Roots, because it stops him from casting animi/using his sword to apply weight of stone before Roots-ing the model you want Roots'd. Shifting Stones help with that, but again, anyone who has played Circle knows to identify when stones are key to a matchup and, if so, remove them. Also, often you'll want to use Baldur to hit things, then port him back with the shifting stones...and you can't do that if he casts roots on himself. Finally, one of the biggest challenges I have with Baldur2 is playing into opponents who just look at the brick and go 'thanks, but no thanks' and decide to just ignore the brick and win on scenario/engineer an assassination rather than bothering with attrition. The Bones list deals with that by being nearly impossible to jam effectively (thanks to bulldoze and crevasse), but a list without those tools? Eh. Honestly, I don't think I WANT a model that screams 'you can't kill me' like Rooted Ghetorix behind a wall does. All you're doing is encouraging your opponent not to play the game you want them to. I'd much rather have models that LOOK killable, but still can't be efficiently removed. Oh, and you also lose out on the 'stone missile' Bones tech, which is probably the most key piece of tech in that list, after Megalith. So many lists rely on a single source of +2 damage buff to break armor, being able to snipe that support swings matchups hard. While you can still stone missile models after top of 1, it becomes much harder to do so reliably, and some models become non-viable targets after turn 1 (Satyxis, Idrians, Krielstone etc) because they get to buff up.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Sept 30, 2018 18:02:01 GMT
I'm not really sure what numbers you are referring to there. Loki only has two initial attacks, both P&S 16 when he warps for strength. Assuming a charge then he would be able to buy three more P&S 16s. If he goes for the drag and warps for strength that's one POW 17 and one P&S 16 for his "initial" attacks with likely three more P&S 16s, no damage boosted (assuming you boost to hit the hook as you cannot afford to let it miss). The Riphorn meanwhile has an extra P&S 15 initial and and the potential for one more P&S 15 attack if you make the chain attack successfully. Unlikely on his own, but in a world where we're stacking primal and Divine Inspiration up landing the chain attack is much more likely against standard hard targets (and again with more attacks buffs go a longer way on the Riphorn). The Riphorn is only Fury 3, but he charges for free so charging only ever increases his damage output. At the very least 5 P&S 16 swings (one boosted damage) and one at P&S 15 (with the potential for an additional at P&S 15) should be outdamaging 1 POW 17 and 4 P&S 16s. It's not like Loki doesn't bring a lot to the table, but the Riphorn eeks out some more damage (and this is compounded when you have a couple buffs thrown into the mix) and manages to be a whopping 5 points cheaper while still being fairly durable with roots. Honestly 12/19/30 is a fantastic statline. The good old MK II Skorne split. Just an idea, though. I definitely want to try playing Baldur2 in DH and see how it goes with a few different battlegroup builds. His hook is also PS16 that is 3 initials, if you are going for a charge then yeah sure, but you still spend the same amount of fury. In most cases you shouldn't be charging Loki, you should be dragging models in to get killed and cheating trades. You need to glance at Loki's card again. The hook is actually POW 15 (so goes to 17 with Warp Strength because it is thrown), but it is not a melee weapon. Loki only has two initial melee attacks (The shield and the bite). If Loki had one extra initial at a higher pow in the form of the hook or if he could buy additional attacks at a higher pow in the form of the hook he would obviously be hitting much harder. As it is, though, the hook is a ranged weapon, not one of his melee attacks. Edit: reading the thread it occurs to me you may also be confused about the way the Drag ability on the hook functions. Trollock explained it correctly in his reply to your post. Loki does not have dual attack so he cannot make both his initial melee and ranged attacks; Drag simply lets you make a single melee attack against the target after it has been pushed towards and then continue to buy more attacks against it.
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Post by Trollock on Sept 30, 2018 18:24:56 GMT
oncomingstormThanks for the detailed reply! Not sure i buy in to all the reasoning before having tested it though. Good thing that you COULD include Megalith if it turns out to be needed
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 30, 2018 22:26:30 GMT
You always bring Megalith with Baldur2. ALWAYS. He is not a negotiable piece of kit. Not only is the only geomancer available in theme (and thus, the only way you're realistically going to get more than 2 Roots of the Earth out in a given turn), he heals Baldur to offset his wurm tokens. While you CAN purge those off (and sometimes you have to, even with Megs), you really, really don't want to, because they let Baldur hit like a heavy in the endgame. I can...kind of...see the argument for Ghetorix, Riphorns, etc with Baldur2 (I think it's unlikely to catch on, though), but dropping Megalith isn't a viable option. What is it that you think makes him so nessecary? Sure, he is good but im not sure i see why he is an auto include. If your plan is to have lots of targets that need Roots, sure, he can provide that, but if you only plan on having roots on a couple of models, Baldur can take care of that himself. Is it the Geomancy crevasse that is the thing you value so highly?
As i still havent played Baldur 2 im genuinely curious, im not just looking to start an argument an argument You want the tokens, but you don't want him to just eat 1+2+3+4+5 damage by end game and be sitting on 3 health when the time comes to have him smash something at pow 19. If you take megalith, on average what you get is 0+0+1+2+3, 12 health and a worst case scenario of 0+1+2+3+4 8 health. It makes a big difference as if someone throws some chip damage at him by around turn 3 or so. Without Megalith's auto healing you're potentially going to have to clear wurm tokens in order to keep him up and running. and that leaves him much weaker in the end game.
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Post by Trollock on Oct 1, 2018 1:14:20 GMT
mcdermottI get that you would want to keep the tokens, but us it really a good idea? When will you start making a significant number of attacks (and not cast as many roots)? If you have geomancers to cast roots, they are giving up an attack each for it. Their attacks are roughly as valuable as baldurs, so it has an opportunity cost to do so. Also, if we assume that you always heal for 2, i think you underestimate the danger, since you heal at the start of activation, but suffer damage at the end. At the end of your first turn, you will be at 16 points. At the end of your second turb, you will be at 15. On turn 3 you will be at 14. On turn 4 you will heal to 16 but go down to 12. On turn 5 you will heal to 14 but go down to 9. On turn 6 you will heal to 11 but go down to 5. On turn 7 you will heal to 7 and then die at the end hehe. Already at turn 4 you will be very suceptible to being killed, unless you spend fury to heal a lot (and he is very fury starved) or remove the tokens. I had assumed that going above one or two tokens was not really feasable in practice. Having a caster at pow 15 or so in melee is not bad, but unless you spend all your stack buying attacks it wont make much of an impression. I pretty much saw this as a dead rule that said "you better sacrifice your action at least every other turn or bad things will happen". Do ppl actually keep the tokens the whole game? And if so, is THAT why assassination is the prime loss condission as mentioned earlier?
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Post by elshinare on Oct 1, 2018 3:51:21 GMT
mcdermottI get that you would want to keep the tokens, but us it really a good idea? When will you start making a significant number of attacks (and not cast as many roots)? If you have geomancers to cast roots, they are giving up an attack each for it. Their attacks are roughly as valuable as baldurs, so it has an opportunity cost to do so. Also, if we assume that you always heal for 2, i think you underestimate the danger, since you heal at the start of activation, but suffer damage at the end. At the end of your first turn, you will be at 16 points. At the end of your second turb, you will be at 15. On turn 3 you will be at 14. On turn 4 you will heal to 16 but go down to 12. On turn 5 you will heal to 14 but go down to 9. On turn 6 you will heal to 11 but go down to 5. On turn 7 you will heal to 7 and then die at the end hehe. Already at turn 4 you will be very suceptible to being killed, unless you spend fury to heal a lot (and he is very fury starved) or remove the tokens. I had assumed that going above one or two tokens was not really feasable in practice. Having a caster at pow 15 or so in melee is not bad, but unless you spend all your stack buying attacks it wont make much of an impression. I pretty much saw this as a dead rule that said "you better sacrifice your action at least every other turn or bad things will happen". Do ppl actually keep the tokens the whole game? And if so, is THAT why assassination is the prime loss condission as mentioned earlier? Don't forget you can heal off shifting stones,and if you keep some bloodweavers near enough killing infantry they can heal as well, and if it's in CotW, take Brennos for more heals
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Post by oncomingstorm on Oct 1, 2018 4:00:49 GMT
mcdermott I get that you would want to keep the tokens, but us it really a good idea? When will you start making a significant number of attacks (and not cast as many roots)? If you have geomancers to cast roots, they are giving up an attack each for it. Their attacks are roughly as valuable as baldurs, so it has an opportunity cost to do so. Also, if we assume that you always heal for 2, i think you underestimate the danger, since you heal at the start of activation, but suffer damage at the end. At the end of your first turn, you will be at 16 points. At the end of your second turb, you will be at 15. On turn 3 you will be at 14. On turn 4 you will heal to 16 but go down to 12. On turn 5 you will heal to 14 but go down to 9. On turn 6 you will heal to 11 but go down to 5. On turn 7 you will heal to 7 and then die at the end hehe. Already at turn 4 you will be very suceptible to being killed, unless you spend fury to heal a lot (and he is very fury starved) or remove the tokens. I had assumed that going above one or two tokens was not really feasable in practice. Having a caster at pow 15 or so in melee is not bad, but unless you spend all your stack buying attacks it wont make much of an impression. I pretty much saw this as a dead rule that said "you better sacrifice your action at least every other turn or bad things will happen". Do ppl actually keep the tokens the whole game? And if so, is THAT why assassination is the prime loss condission as mentioned earlier? You use Baldur's melee output either on feat turn (when everything is going to be rooted anyways) or late game, once the game has ground down. Baldur very rarely sits at much below full health, between shifting stones, Megalith, and occasional healing with Fury. Personally, I tend to stack wurm tokens every game where there's more than one high arm target that he might need to nuke in the late game. I've used Baldur to kill Derp Turtles, Storm Striders, and heavies, and his personal input is a key piece in being able to play effectively into Mordikaar Birbs. He can also, as I've said, be used to clear off the front line of the brick to let the wold guardians keep pushing forwards (the turn he has to do this is also usually feat turn, however. The way I play Baldur2, there are at least 4 Rooted models on any given turn, and if you position well and use the wall correctly, you can typically ensure that your opponent has no choice but to engage the Rooted models if he wants to kill anything. Feat turn is the turn where models get to do things OTHER than cast roots and advance/make initials. (obviously, it's different in cases where the matchup is one baldur can roll over.) Wurm Tokens are definitely not just a disadvantage, though, and if you treat them as just being a liability, you are missing out on a key piece of Baldur2's kit IMO.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 1, 2018 4:10:01 GMT
Baldur 2s blood shaman does get to cast roots of the earth, so you can get 4 a turn if you wish. Stalkers, megalith and Loki are all acceptable targets and ghetorix is an incredible one.
Rock wall is also an excellent spell, whenever a caster has rock wall without an exception it's the best spell on their card.
I personally would plan for a list that gets 3 good roots of the earth a turn because baldur will often want to be casting rock wall again to move it up the table.
You do also get the chance to take a blood shaman to increase baldur 2s lists melee damage which Is very useful to have.
I'm not convinced it's competitive, but there are some interesting synergies there.
Some other casters who I think will have a place (possibly not a competitive one, will see) in the post cid world:
1. Baldur 1
Baldur 1 is the caster who (I think alone) runs blood weavers with the UA and gets a lot from the Well. He can make blood weavers into a credible melee threat which is hard to stop due to hit feat and solid ground. Ravagers also like immunity to blast damage and no knockdown and due to blood weavers you can probably get away without taking a shaman for magic weapons.
Baldur 1 is still boring mcboring face, but he has a good list to deliver. I think his (and most DH casters) problem is Wurmwood. Wurmwood does a lot of excellent stuff which also helps deliver and control.
Baldur 1 has a POW 18 lord of the feast with stones kin, which is also really strong.
2. Morvahna 2 Morvhana 2s buffs put her into the excellent category of warcasters. Fog of war is amazing in a list with higher average defence models. Def 15 in one place is merely OK, doing it army wide starts to cause issues.
Morvhana 2 has censure, which is an excellent punishment spell, putting people on edge in a lot of matchups while also having excellent melee prowess herself. Her ability to knockdown, reroll hits and damage rolls and gain additional dice is quite potent. You should see the numbers on her when she has Divine Inspiration, rerolls and also life trader, she *will* remove a lot of heavies in the game pretty casually and repo away.
Her feat allows her to play through hard games where you lose a lot (although it will take a lot of time and effort to work out the best time to feat). Dropping a bunch of ravagers and blood pack on the table will be a backbreaking manoeuvre in a lot of cases.
In all of this, scales of fate allows her army to simply not suffer a huge portion of the bad luck that you could suffer. Rerolls will, in a lot of cases, be functionally equivalent to signs and portents. But mark that she will be spending a lot of her turns healing with fury.
3. Iona
Iona is dull, but she's dull in a strong way. Phantasm and sure foot are excellent spells and her feat is an amazing one because it adds to a lot of your ranged and melee offensive power. She protects your list with 2 good defensive upkeeps, a reasonably powerful defensive aspect to a feat and a elite cadre who can be powerful as long as your opponent isn't careless.
In my opinion Iona is a little lacking in that a lot of her synergies don't work with Death Wolves and LotF, who are outstanding parts of the theme. Her focus on strictly tharn means that she will be running a theme which can try to stat-push your opponents off the table, but lacks the Scalpel and Anvil of those pieces.
She will definitely see play. Big Stats are a fashion that is hard to go out of style.
4. Grayle
Captain "totally a wolf sworn, guys" Himself. Grayle can see some play off the back of him having some pretty good tools like vengeance for bloodtrackers or death wolves, wind blast for close on shooting models like dwarf gun bunnies but honestly the most important thing is that grayle's lord of the feast is actually incredible.
Mat 10 pow 18 with signs and portents at full speed. If you check the maths he destroys a lot of models you wouldn't think he should a not inconsiderable amount of the time.
He destroys a wraith engine 85% of the time if you can thresher another model and kill it (so you can boost the first damage roll and lose nothing).
LotF is probably a little too strong as of the end of cid. If he's anything close to what he is, he will be amazing and grayle makes him best.
5. Wurmwood. Wurmwood, in my opinion, is the undisputed king of Tharn. His ability to dump himself within 8" of a lot of enemy models on the top of 2 and feat, run his entire army to within charge range and deny enemies the ability to play scenario is exceptional. His ability to threaten and destroy using Hellmouth as well as control huge bases and jacks with stranglehold just allows you to get a nearly insurmountable lead in attrition and scenario in a lot of matchups.
Wurmwood is going to be *huge*.
6. Kromac 2 I am less convinced on call of the wild as a viable theme but kromac 2 already has some rumblings in the meta so he is undoubtedly better than he was.
Pretty much every beast that kromac wants to use is better and so there might be some viable lists.
Pretty much what makes me consider kromacs viability is that the lists that Krueger doesn't want to see are lists with antimagic and large statted models like certain types of colossals and battle engines and kromac likes to see those kinds of lists because he is pretty strong in the stat's on stat's fight. The question is whether kromac in call (or DH) is appreciably better than Iona or Wurmwood or Bradigus at a similar job.
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