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Post by midnight on Sept 28, 2018 0:45:37 GMT
I'm trying to read the threads and went on other forums. I dont quite see how Trenchers can be the all around list people extol it for especially when it comes to armor.
Khador and other factions can get armor up to 19-20 easy.
I get Ragman, and even Siege 2 but am I missing something?
Could some of you post a list you had some success with?
Thanks in advance!
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Post by Gamingdevil on Sept 28, 2018 6:05:16 GMT
As a non-Cygnar player, I would say that cracking ARM is a minor weakness of the theme. With Ragman alone, Trencher infantry goes to POW 13 charges, which can crack some armor, Long Gunners can CRA to POW 20+, Trench Busters can pull a number on anyone with Flank and if you severely damage something but fail to kill it, there's always an Express Team to make sure it stays crippled. Full-on ARM spam might be a problem, but it's one that Siege 2 can fix and you normally have enough dudes and control elements to make it rough on your opponent still. That last one is also why Haley 3 is so popular in the theme, she adds her own control elements with Domination, Temporal Distortion and Force Hammer, brings a dangerous weapon master and makes the cloud wall tech possible.
The theme excels into mixed arms lists, but has the tools available to grind out a scenario victory against things it can't kill.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Sept 28, 2018 7:41:08 GMT
Warjack is always our best option to deal with the warjacks. Unfortunately, we lacks Arcane Shield so our heavies are fragile. And you don't have Storm Lances nor Arcane Tempest Rifleman(although they are only serves point-efficient support role, not who makes the killing blow), you need to stick with the warjacks. A Hunter can cause average 6.323 damage per a round(consider 97.222% of chance to hit against DEF 10 Juggernaut), with boosted damage roll by the focus gained by Power Up. Hunter is easily counterfired if the enemy has any actual ranged weapons, but at least you can strike first, and they are cheap anti armor ranged option anyways. If you pick Brisbane2, you must be also bring Triumph, which is more point efficient gun. For melee options, both Centurion and Blockhouse are good, although only Maddox can afford the latter. Anyway, both options are not need Arcane Shield to deliver, so these warjacks are your primary beatsticks in Gravedigger. Else, if you pick Stryker1, Nemo2, or Darius, then you may bring a colossal instead and put the defensive buff on it as well. Both colossals we have are have good anti-armor firepower as well. As you know Trenchers are generally not good at deal with the armor, which is the root of the problem. So, you better stick with the warjacks to deal with enemy armors. But, some Trenchers are able to help armor cracking jobs as well, so you may use some of them and concentrate the fire against hard targets. But remember, they are not point efficient just for deal with the armor, so only afford them is not so good idea. -Units with CRA - Trencher Infantry and Trencher Long Gunner: Both of them can cause some dent against the armors. Trencher Infantry will expect engagement after the shot, but Trencher Long Gunner can move and shoot&pop Go to Ground in one turn, then the following turn they are actually trigger Dual Shot to making total three POW 20 shots during two turns before the enemy chargers are attempts to charge them. But, with their costs you can have two Hunters and some more spare points, so as I said already they are not the main forces to deal with the armor. It doesn't means that they are mediocre, though. Against the units they are far better than only two Hunters, and their versatility is enough to earn the penny. Also you will have to shoot everything you got to only a target in order to silence it by a round in the real games. -Trench Buster: Well, they can cause average 1.5(Cinder Bomb)+7.782(charge attack with Bayonet)+2.745(if he is able to making RNG 0.5 Assault Shield attack) damage with Flank&charge against a Juggernaut, which is not a joke. If you can add Ragman's debuff it goes better. But you need an another armor cracker as well, for they are solo model. Solo models are generally not so good at damage dealing per points. Not to mention that he needs Flank, and many warjack/warbeasts with RNG 2 weapons makes you harder to pick the order of activation. Even two Busters are can't one round a brand new Juggernaut without support, so you better think him as an extra shot followed by your main tool. Although Busters are quite deadly on their own, so they are actually the nice supporter. Just don't think that only takes two Busters and leave the heavy, then think that you can deal with anything. Instead, bring a beatstick heavy or anti armor guns, then your main anti armor tools are cripple the enemy then Busters will end it. -Trencher Cannon Crew: They are annoying to use, but their damage per points is good if you add Trencher Master Gunner on each of them. Use them only if you are fond of them, though. In the most times Horgenhold Artillery Corps is far better choice, due to the convenience. As a non-Cygnar player, I would say that cracking ARM is a minor weakness of the theme. With Ragman alone, Trencher infantry goes to POW 13 charges, which can crack some armor, Long Gunners can CRA to POW 20+, Trench Busters can pull a number on anyone with Flank and if you severely damage something but fail to kill it, there's always an Express Team to make sure it stays crippled. Full-on ARM spam might be a problem, but it's one that Siege 2 can fix and you normally have enough dudes and control elements to make it rough on your opponent still. That last one is also why Haley 3 is so popular in the theme, she adds her own control elements with Domination, Temporal Distortion and Force Hammer, brings a dangerous weapon master and makes the cloud wall tech possible. The theme excels into mixed arms lists, but has the tools available to grind out a scenario victory against things it can't kill. Ragman's problem is his positioning, and although RNG 1 is good but about five boosted effective POW 13 attacks are not enough to silence a heavy outright so it is not that good solution in the most time - against a Juggernaut, each of them cause average 3.662 damage on a hit, and if you also consider their MAT 6 expected damage per a trooper is 3.356. You will expect about 4 to 6 troopers are able to in melee with a large base enemy, so they needs some shootings in order to do it well. So it is just a last resort or your caster must be either Stryker2 or Maddox(or Brisbane2, as OP said), who actually makes such a suicidal run into a quite viable idea instead. Anyway, charge is always the last option of Trencher Infantry, since charge means they are throw away all the advantage they got. Remember, if a Trencher(every single one through the game!) ever starts its activation while engaged, they are already done for. Well, just for hold the ground is an another way to win, sure. They are not able to kill the armor well, but they have Tough instead....Although they are expensive so they need to reduce the enemy by the ranged attacks in the first place to hold the ground.
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Post by jisidro on Sept 28, 2018 9:04:28 GMT
Siege2 can get a +7 POW swing with Ragman, A&H and Fury on everyone and Commandoes can go up to +9. Should crack most ARM.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Sept 28, 2018 10:42:37 GMT
Commandos is not an option since their melee weapon has RNG 0.5. At least RNG 1 is required to actually attempt to crack armor.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 28, 2018 16:37:50 GMT
I am trialling a Stryker 2 Storm Division as my dedicated armour cracker, Gravediggers can have the tools, but it would still struggle into serious armour, at which point you are looking to drag the game out and probably clock your opponent or get it on scenario
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Post by jisidro on Sept 28, 2018 16:51:48 GMT
Commandos is not an option since their melee weapon has RNG 0.5. At least RNG 1 is required to actually attempt to crack armor. 0.5" sucks now that most stuff seems to get 1" or better... But if you're charging at pow18 (16? With 3 out of 4 buffs) how many commandos do you need?
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Post by droopingpuppy on Sept 28, 2018 17:03:25 GMT
Commandos is not an option since their melee weapon has RNG 0.5. At least RNG 1 is required to actually attempt to crack armor. 0.5" sucks now that most stuff seems to get 1" or better... But if you're charging at pow18 (16? With 3 out of 4 buffs) how many commandos do you need? It have really no meaning since even without that much investment Trencher Infantry does it far better, for only Fury is enough to cause similar damage output with them. In the meantime Commandos also needs mini-feat, Ragman and Aiyana too.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Sept 28, 2018 21:34:21 GMT
Commandos is not an option since their melee weapon has RNG 0.5. At least RNG 1 is required to actually attempt to crack armor. Incorrect. Commandos are most certainly an option, and an arbitrary statement that "1 inch melee is required to attempt to crack armor" is baseless. If you land Kiss of Lyliss on an ARM20 50mm base model, get Ragman into position, cast Fury on a unit of Commandos, and mini feat on that on that model, then get 5 Commandos into melee, you have 5 attacks at MAT 9 or 10 and P&S 18 into it. You average dealing 40 damage against that model. Take Ragman out of the picture, and you still average 30 damage to that model. Explain how that is not armor cracking? Want to say that I "can't get 5 Commandos into melee with a large base"? I do it frequently enough, and can point to specific games against good opponents where it happens.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Sept 28, 2018 21:38:49 GMT
0.5" sucks now that most stuff seems to get 1" or better... But if you're charging at pow18 (16? With 3 out of 4 buffs) how many commandos do you need? It have really no meaning since even without that much investment Trencher Infantry does it far better, for only Fury is enough to cause similar damage output with them. In the meantime Commandos also needs mini-feat, Ragman and Aiyana too. It's not about "who does it better," it's about the fact that Commandos can also crack armor. Importantly, Commandos diversify your defense profile (stealth instead of dig-in), and also bring some incredibly potent anti-infantry shooting to your list. Commando shooting, by the way, can also help crack armor. With Mini-feat and Kiss of Lyliss, you can put a bunch of POW14-POW16 gunshots into a model. If that model is ARM19 or lower, that damage is going to add up real fast. Lastly, sometimes you need higher MAT. When MAT 6 or 7 isn't going to be reliable, Commandos can go in at MAT10. Huge difference when it matters (into Legion, Circle, Skorne, etc.). So, in conclusion, it is beneficial to play a unit of Commandos with Siege2 for the diverse toolkit that they bring. The fact that they can also serve an anti-armor role, when called upon to do so, reinforces that conclusion.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Sept 28, 2018 23:14:35 GMT
Most of the times ragman will be dead or out of range since he can't keep pace with "modern" Threat ranges. The meta is also all fire blasts/sprays, so ragman is gonna die soon. A&H are an option, but honestly they are very costly and even simple concealment will make landing that rat7 kiss on a def11 model risky. If you try to use A&H against trolls for instance you'll be really disappointed. The +7 damage swing won't happen against canny opponents, or if it happens it will be agianst a 12/13 points heavy that i sthere as bait only to wreck you support next turn.
Honestly, i prefer just bringing more troops with siege2. he makes trenchers or commandos in minifeat pow 14, and if you soften the enemy up with longgunners and/or triumph or a hunter they are gonna get the job done.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Sept 28, 2018 23:47:19 GMT
Most of the times ragman will be dead or out of range since he can't keep pace with "modern" Threat ranges. The meta is also all fire blasts/sprays, so ragman is gonna die soon. A&H are an option, but honestly they are very costly and even simple concealment will make landing that rat7 kiss on a def11 model risky. If you try to use A&H against trolls for instance you'll be really disappointed. The +7 damage swing won't happen against canny opponents, or if it happens it will be agianst a 12/13 points heavy that i sthere as bait only to wreck you support next turn. Honestly, i prefer just bringing more troops with siege2. he makes trenchers or commandos in minifeat pow 14, and if you soften the enemy up with longgunners and/or triumph or a hunter they are gonna get the job done. And, after playing over 120 games with Siege2, I disagree with that opinion. Ragman is often where he is needed, and he is surprisingly easy to protect against (non-blast) ranged attacks. Sac pawn works for Sprays as well. So unless your opponent kills him with a spell or blast damage, they can't kill him (so many living bodies around). With a Blockhouse in the list, you can even make it so that your opponent cannot kill Ragman with blast, and so that he is DEF18 against spells. In terms of what "a canny opponent won't let happen," or being "really disappointed with Aiyana and Holt"...again, not my experience. Aiyana and Holt and Ragman are pure money in my Siege2 list. Worth every point of their cost.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Sept 29, 2018 7:33:45 GMT
Commandos is not an option since their melee weapon has RNG 0.5. At least RNG 1 is required to actually attempt to crack armor. Incorrect. Commandos are most certainly an option, and an arbitrary statement that "1 inch melee is required to attempt to crack armor" is baseless. If you land Kiss of Lyliss on an ARM20 50mm base model, get Ragman into position, cast Fury on a unit of Commandos, and mini feat on that on that model, then get 5 Commandos into melee, you have 5 attacks at MAT 9 or 10 and P&S 18 into it. You average dealing 40 damage against that model. Take Ragman out of the picture, and you still average 30 damage to that model. Explain how that is not armor cracking? Want to say that I "can't get 5 Commandos into melee with a large base"? I do it frequently enough, and can point to specific games against good opponents where it happens. You may, but it doesn't comes to the reality in the most times unless you can surround it ideally, which is actually unusual. That's the enough reason to say no for it, for many of us are already have enough real game experiences for a decade or more. In the most times you can only do 2 to 3 regularly by RNG 0.5 melee weapon unless the enemy has huge base or the enemy is fool enough to let you to do without any gain - yes, AFTER the opponent's warjack rush through your line and kill a bunch of yours, you may do that, but in this case you are already lose too much and why your Commandos are sit behind of the second line in the first place? Also, even if if actually happens, it only proves that Trencher Infantry in the same situation can make MORE attacks than them and actually making much more damage despite of lesser investment in the real games. Consider we are already saw how RNG 0.5 does through MKI and MKII, no, they aren't the good candidate. It have really no meaning since even without that much investment Trencher Infantry does it far better, for only Fury is enough to cause similar damage output with them. In the meantime Commandos also needs mini-feat, Ragman and Aiyana too. It's not about "who does it better," it's about the fact that Commandos can also crack armor. Importantly, Commandos diversify your defense profile (stealth instead of dig-in), and also bring some incredibly potent anti-infantry shooting to your list. Commando shooting, by the way, can also help crack armor. With Mini-feat and Kiss of Lyliss, you can put a bunch of POW14-POW16 gunshots into a model. If that model is ARM19 or lower, that damage is going to add up real fast. Lastly, sometimes you need higher MAT. When MAT 6 or 7 isn't going to be reliable, Commandos can go in at MAT10. Huge difference when it matters (into Legion, Circle, Skorne, etc.). So, in conclusion, it is beneficial to play a unit of Commandos with Siege2 for the diverse toolkit that they bring. The fact that they can also serve an anti-armor role, when called upon to do so, reinforces that conclusion. I admit that they MAY try to help armor cracking, but that's only a last resort. You have much better ways to crack armor far better than them, and even for the mediocre ideas most of them are better and easier than Commandos. Against DEF 14+ targets, indeed, you need something accurate. But only accurate attack is not enough to silence a 20+ damage box heavy. Anyway, keep in mind that they can do something seems helpful,
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Post by midnight on Sept 30, 2018 2:55:38 GMT
Thank you all. This has been informative!
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Post by anoddman on Sept 30, 2018 18:49:48 GMT
droopingpuppyI'm with Juris. The idea that you can't get 5 Commandos on a heavy is preposterous. I take a unit of Commandos and a unit of Infantry with Siege2, and both do an excellent job of smashing armor. Pathfinder on Commandos is also pretty critical for diversifying your options as Juris pointed out. Juris isn't an anomaly. Plenty of players at all levels of play are doing just fine with Commandos and cracking ARM in Gravediggers.
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