Advice and Questions on a Haley3 Sons of Tempest List

kalden
Baby's First Wargame

Posts: 6

Advice and Questions on a Haley3 Sons of Tempest List Sept 16, 2018 21:31:01 GMT

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Post by kalden on Sept 16, 2018 21:31:01 GMT

Played a few games with this list. I am putting down my reasoning for selecting units and how they have worked out so far. I'm not very good at the game yet so any advice would be welcome. Thanks.

First I have a question about upkeep spells for the theme. I remember reading somewhere that you can start the game with them up but I haven't read that in theme description.

Sons of Tempest Theme List

Haley3 - I use Temporal Distortion of course but I find it hard to cover a spread out force on the board also the use of the spell does not leave a lot of focus so I can't cast domination outside of feat turn
Past Haley - I have found that the Chain Blast and force hammer are really good especially with Raw Talent
Future Haley - I haven't used this model properly yet I think but the Ghostly spell seems a good option to effectively get pathfinder

Battlegroup
Squire - not sure when to take the extra focus sometimes and I feel like I waste the focus a lot when I do take it

Thorne - I use this as an arc node for as long as possible then find myself jamming it into something tough to stop it from advancing. Also run into positioning issues where its too far back or other units are in the way and I can't put it where its needed. Is there a general spot that is good for thorne at setup?

Ironclad - I find myself keeping this as a reserve unit in the back to throw at the enemy later in the game

Army
Precursor Knights with Officer Attachment - This is main front line center of my army. With Haley and shield wall they end up 14 Def / 18 Armor and are very survivable. I did want to clarify if Temporal Distortion works on this unit even with it having sacred ward? Also I have questions about blessed. If a unit has a spell on it that says cannot be knocked down does bless allow you to ignore that affect also? If a spell indirectly gives a bonus like Temporal Distortion or a spell on your caster that says all units in your battlegroup cannot be knocked down does bless ignore that also?
The officer gives me 1 turn of weapon master and practiced maneuvers. Which I find quite useful to clear high armor targets.
Overall I have that this unit is quite survivable I can resurrect grunts if I need to the weapons are magical and work with rune marked from Falk and hits very hard for 1 turn. (haven't gotten that combo to work yet) The biggest down side is that having to give the shield wall order the unit is slow and because the army follows this unit the whole army is slow to get up the board.

Lieutenant Bastian Falk - I usually park him in a forest but feel like I'm under utilizing him as I usually only get 1 use out of this unit. Additionally I have a question about his rune mark ability. Does the rune mark increase Falks damage by 2 also or is it only for shots made after?
I also have Caine0 in the army and I put Fire for Effect on Falk as there does not seem to another good target.

Caine0 - I have him for the Fire for Effect spell but I'm not sure it is worth it. Most of the time Caine0 himself is not outputting damage and Falk my target of choice for FFE doesn't get a lot of shots off.

Sentinel - The jack I took for Caine0. I picked this for the shield guard to take an incoming shot that could hit any of important solos. Also a good blocking or throw away piece if needed. But If I remove Caine0 I can remove this from the list also not sure what I would add in its place though.

Gun Mage Captain Adept - I took this for the options he has but find that the vast majority of the time I'm just using the snipe with brutal damage. The true sight does come in handy but I think I'm under utilizing this model but I think it should remain in the list for the options it has available to it.

Arcane Tempest Gun Mages with the Officer Attachment - This unit seems really fragile even with Haley3 providing 2 DEF bonus the opponent usually has some AOEs. I find that I put this unit on the flank which makes it a bit rough to get one of the Haley3 to run over to get the 2 DEF bonus. I have been thinking about putting in the back but then I'm not sure what I would put on the flank.

Cyclone - I find myself really liking this jack when its jack marshaled to the gun mage officer. It's more useful than I thought I also use this as the front line for the flank with the gun mages as its the only thing that can actually survive being hit.

Black 13 - I find myself putting this unit in a forest or trying to. I give this unit the upkeep spell Tactical Supremacy so it can pop out of the forest to shot then get back in. I find though I need this unit to contest or score scenario zones.

I find myself putting Black 13, Falk, Caine0 the Sentinel and Thorne on the opposite flank to the gun mages because I need something to hold that side. I usually find that flank feeling really week as all the units there besides the Sentinel which starts the game in the center not able to hold the line well. I don't want to engage with Throne but find myself having to by 3 or 4.

If anyone has read all this rambling I appreciate it and thanks again for any help.

gobber
The Sky Fell

Posts: 1,193

Advice and Questions on a Haley3 Sons of Tempest List Sept 17, 2018 4:11:17 GMT

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Post by gobber on Sept 17, 2018 4:11:17 GMT

Hadn't noticed the falk/precursor synergy before. Cool trick! Runemarked does affect the damage from his own gun (debuff is applied as soon as the target is hit, before damage roll)

Spell ward (different than sacred ward) prevents targeted spells. Area spells like temporal distortion work fine (revive works too because it doesn't need to target). They can also be targeted by non-spell buffs like rhupert.

Blessed - Attacks with this weapon ignore spells & animi that add to the target's DEF or ARM.

It's meant to be read literally. So yes, it would ignore temporal distortion. It would not ignore a no-knockdown spell. Nor would it ignore the def buff from a spell that grants an effect like concealment rather than a direct def buff. It would also not ignore the other effects of a spell that gives these bonuses (ie, dauntless resolved' targets will still be tough). Nonspell buffs like feats or krielstone are likewise unaffected.

FYI, the GMCA's are also good fire for effect targets. boosted brutal damage hurts.

Go post your conversions!

elmagnifico
Boots on the Ground

Posts: 83

Advice and Questions on a Haley3 Sons of Tempest List Sept 17, 2018 5:18:55 GMT

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Post by elmagnifico on Sept 17, 2018 5:18:55 GMT

On that note, Fire for Effect is also good on the B13. Just because it's a model spell, not a model/unit spell, doesn't mean you can't put it on a model in a unit. Stick it on the member you plan to have shoot last, for the highest POW.

Fides protegit, adjuvat kevlar.

darkangeldentist
Junior Strategist

Posts: 213

Advice and Questions on a Haley3 Sons of Tempest List Sept 17, 2018 12:43:28 GMT

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Post by darkangeldentist on Sept 17, 2018 12:43:28 GMT

Nice to hear about someone doing their own thing. I like the idea of Haley3 in Sons of the tempest and the precursor combo with Falk is very cute but as mentioned, somewhat tricky to pull off. (Don't forget that precursors are DEF 13, at least they were last time I checked.)

It sounds like where to put your upkeeps is something worth having a bit more of a play around with. The Black 13th can protect themselves quite well by simply taking advantage of prowl and it's worth remembering that they also have swift-hunter so even without tactical supremacy they can do the shoot and scoot trick inside clouds and forests if you are careful and a bit lucky. I would try putting tactical supremacy onto the gun mage pistoleers. They also have swift hunter thanks to the UA but since they have thunderbolt as an option for their gunshots they can be a great control element shoving enemy models about and potentially knocking them down. Assuming a target that can be pushed, with a 3" reposition you can be guaranteed the enemy models hit will be 14" or more away from the gun mages after the shot.

Haley herself is also a good target for tactical supremacy as it allows both Haley past and future play more aggressively (and future's gun is something you want to take advantage of) without leaving them too exposed. It also helps enormously with positioning since you get some leeway putting them where they can do work but still be safe and placed to hand out the temporal distortion buff. Although you won't be benefiting from the theme benefit of free upkeeps leaving the spell on her it does make the squire's focus more relevant and useful.

If you don't feel that Caine0 is doing much for you then do give something else a whirl and see if that works any better. He's a great solo if you can get work out of him but only if you can get work out of him. Fire for effect is a situationally great spell and although I think it's great on Falk it's also easy to see how it can appear a little underwhelming since Falk is far from the hardest to kill solo in the game. Think about the way Falk works on the table and see whether or not the lack of impact is simply due to being cautious with him to try and ensure you have him when you need him. Or if you're only really bringing him to crack hard targets with his damage buff. Since most high armour models have low DEF you might not need the insurance fire for effect provides.

If you do think that changes need to be made, the obvious question is what would replace them? Since Caine seems to be the one who's position is most precarious, lets look at him first. You could swap him for a regular journeyman as a simple straight swap. Arcane shield isn't much use on any of the infantry but it's still great for any of the jacks or Haley herself. He's not going to using his focus for much so not getting the upkeep for free isn't a big deal. Alternatively Arlan Strangewayes is a great all-purpose solo for any list. A focus you can give a marshalled jack is useful but granting a jack magical weapons so that it can benefit from Falk is a great boon. Repair can also be invaluable since it's very frustrating to see a system crippled from one random hit with a spiked damage roll.

Good luck and have fun.

Rork
10 Point Advantage

Posts: 74

Advice and Questions on a Haley3 Sons of Tempest List Sept 17, 2018 17:17:57 GMT

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Post by Rork on Sept 17, 2018 17:17:57 GMT

Sept 17, 2018 12:43:28 GMT darkangeldentist said:

If you do think that changes need to be made, the obvious question is what would replace them? Since Caine seems to be the one who's position is most precarious, lets look at him first. You could swap him for a regular journeyman as a simple straight swap. Arcane shield isn't much use on any of the infantry but it's still great for any of the jacks or Haley herself. He's not going to using his focus for much so not getting the upkeep for free isn't a big deal. Alternatively Arlan Strangewayes is a great all-purpose solo for any list. A focus you can give a marshalled jack is useful but granting a jack magical weapons so that it can benefit from Falk is a great boon. Repair can also be invaluable since it's very frustrating to see a system crippled from one random hit with a spiked damage roll.

The classic pre-theme tech for Haley3 was combining Rhupert's Dirge of Mists with Arcane Shield to make her unit obnoxiously hard to kill. That probably has even more value in SotT since cloud walls aren't really an option.

kalden
Baby's First Wargame

Posts: 6

Advice and Questions on a Haley3 Sons of Tempest List Sept 17, 2018 21:31:08 GMT

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Post by kalden on Sept 17, 2018 21:31:08 GMT

Thanks for the help and comments everyone.

darkangeldentist you are right about the DEF for the knights it is 13. Don't know how I screwed that up but that's even better.

I think I'll try a few more games with the list as is and try to be more aggressive and use more of the abilities. I didn't even remember that the gun mage office gave the unit swift hunter.

If I do remove Caine0 and the sentinel I think it needs to be replaced with something that can be used to be a front line unit on a flank. I'm thinking maybe 2 units of Precursor Knights? Will have to see how the points work out. They are slow but they both could move up the board at DEF 15 / ARM 18. I could put both on the flanks close to the center and put all the rest of the army in the middle which would let me maneuver and apply buffs much easier.

darkangeldentist
Junior Strategist

Posts: 213

Advice and Questions on a Haley3 Sons of Tempest List Sept 17, 2018 21:48:32 GMT

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Post by darkangeldentist on Sept 17, 2018 21:48:32 GMT

Best of luck for the future games.

On the subject of list changes, have you looked at Tempest blazers? The gun mage light cav are an excellent flanking unit and quite forgiving to use. Reposition 5" on a ranged unit makes them potentially obnoxious for opponents to deal with. Although I wouldn't ever count on them to survive getting hit their ARM 13 with 5 boxes does make them almost as survivable as the precursors but far more mobile and with an extra pip of DEF.

kalden
Baby's First Wargame

Posts: 6

Advice and Questions on a Haley3 Sons of Tempest List Sept 17, 2018 22:33:08 GMT

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Post by kalden on Sept 17, 2018 22:33:08 GMT

Best of luck for the future games.

On the subject of list changes, have you looked at Tempest blazers? The gun mage light cav are an excellent flanking unit and quite forgiving to use. Reposition 5" on a ranged unit makes them potentially obnoxious for opponents to deal with. Although I wouldn't ever count on them to survive getting hit their ARM 13 with 5 boxes does make them almost as survivable as the precursors but far more mobile and with an extra pip of DEF.

Thank you.

I did think about Tempest blazers the reason I didn't go with them is that they don't synergize well with Haley3. They seem like a good fast flanking unit but Haley3 wants her army relatively close by to apply her Temporal Disruption buff.

Now I could be wrong about this and having a highly mobile unit in a army that moves really slow could be whats needed but there is another reason as well.

The tempest blazers are survivable because of speed, ranged attacks and repo 5 they can just get out of the way of most things. The down side I see is a lot of points tied up in more models that can't or you don't want on the front line.

On paper they appear about a precursor knight because of the 5 boxes they have but I think they will absorb less attacks especially AOEs due to the low armor.

Now if they had pistoleer I would really consider taking them as the armor cracking unit (with other options) in the list but they don't. For 18 points there damage output feels low.

Needing a front line unit that didn't die to a stiff breeze in this theme list is how I ended up with precursor knights. Makes me wish that PP would allow you to pick a unit from your own faction also to add to a theme list instead of just merc units and solos.