boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 9, 2018 19:24:11 GMT
As a non-skorne player, I see Mordikaar as a beast-caster. Why not run him in Imperial Warhost? Revive and hollow keeps assures that free beast charges happen. Void Wind is a timewalk-feat. Essence blast is best used on wounded beasts. I suppose for many of us from MKII Mordikaar is an infantry-centric warlock, and being a IWH warlock seems counter-intuitive. I recall seeing on Arcane Assist a Archidon spam list with some game, but mostly I think we want or expect him to work better with infantry.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Oct 9, 2018 21:16:00 GMT
boozy Yeah, but he doesn't really buff infantry anymore. In MK2 he kinda did, because revive was somewhat broken. But even in Mk2, there were better Skorne caster for infantry. IMHO the archidon spam is somewhat sad. I mean you could catch some newbie with a casterkill. But why build your list around that? Skorne has a lot of beasts that are good in attrition. Mordikaar is an exellent attritrion warlock because of (free) void spirits, defensive feat and zero opportunity cost spell revive. I mean you could run a similar list with Rasheth, but he always needs to sacrifice activations and troopers for channeling.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 11, 2018 17:29:41 GMT
Just for gets and shiggles, let's say Mordikaar comes back as a Void Spirit. He finds his old armor and fills it up with sandy ghost horribleness. Let's also say that his connection to Caenn is tenuous, so his power to affect the world isn't as complete (yet), so he is downgraded from a full Warlock to a Lesser Warlock. Figure that he isn't as strong as the Void Spirits he collected, and due to his Lantern, not as mobile (so leaving out Void Walk), and he can only manifest 4 Fury across the veil at a time.
Essence Blast is rather iconic and characterful for him, but rather expensive for such available power. Manifest Void seems rather poignant and flavorful as well as Host of Shadows. He'll probably be limited to two, due to being able to cast animi, so options will be limited.
I am not as familiar with other spell lists, so what are some undead-type spells that could provide an interesting addition to the Skorne line up that he may have picked up during his void-based sojurn?
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skormedlover87
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Desperately searching for days off to game...
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 11, 2018 23:22:02 GMT
I'm amused by the idea of a retrograde lesser warlock. It would certainly fix "I want Despoiler in other themes" (assuming Mordi2 could go in other themes...).
Not likely to ever happen, but an interesting idea.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 11, 2018 23:45:02 GMT
I'm amused by the idea of a retrograde lesser warlock. It would certainly fix "I want Despoiler in other themes" (assuming Mordi2 could go in other themes...). Not likely to ever happen, but an interesting idea. Having one come back as a ghost or a zombie is about the only way I could think of downgrading a Warlock short of extreme age, at least for a non-Troll. And if anyone could do it, Mordikaar would be one.
So what spells would be good for that? Should there be an overwhelming that takes the most of the Lesser's Fury, like Essence Blast, or should there only be a couple medium spells?
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 12, 2018 1:59:49 GMT
Hmm... First off, there shouldn't be any armour or equipment to reinhabit. He was swallowed whole by the Devourer Wyrm. That's not to say he won't have the "vestigal" look of his old equipment. And that's good. If he had that lantern gun, as a boostable solo who's probably incorporeal, that's probably most of his power potential right there without going completely above the curve.
So with maybe just a melee attack he can have some good spells. Personally, I'd love to see Ghost Walk and Hellfire. Hellfire is sorta expensive, but you could give him blood boon or some other ability that encourages him to get into melee and kill things. Or maybe the additional dice to attack and damage effects all attacks. Ghost Walk is an amazing spell that's fluffy and offers great utility wherever he'd be allowed in theme.
Though honestly, if we're getting a new lesser, I'd prefer if it's a 3 pt paingiver UA that comes with Abuse. That would be amazing and would affect all themes.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 12, 2018 3:47:10 GMT
Hmm... First off, there shouldn't be any armour or equipment to reinhabit. He was swallowed whole by the Devourer Wyrm. That's not to say he won't have the "vestigal" look of his old equipment. And that's good. If he had that lantern gun, as a boostable solo who's probably incorporeal, that's probably most of his power potential right there without going completely above the curve. So with maybe just a melee attack he can have some good spells. Personally, I'd love to see Ghost Walk and Hellfire. Hellfire is sorta expensive, but you could give him blood boon or some other ability that encourages him to get into melee and kill things. Or maybe the additional dice to attack and damage effects all attacks. Ghost Walk is an amazing spell that's fluffy and offers great utility wherever he'd be allowed in theme. Though honestly, if we're getting a new lesser, I'd prefer if it's a 3 pt paingiver UA that comes with Abuse. That would be amazing and would affect all themes. Well, old armor could be what he wore before he wore what was wearing before he went off on that mission that led him being sucked in to the Void. Dude had several Lanterns, I'm sure another could be found.
I was considering on having his strength being lower than the standard Void Spirit, and the Lantern not having his Death Blast, but as it was stated previously in the fluff, to illuminate the incorporeal. In short, a Pow - weapon that makes a model or unit lose Incorporeal.
Ghost Walk could work, it fits with his Host of Shadows concept, but more capable with his low Fury capacity now.
If we're worried about an Incorporeal that can Boost at range, should we give him an offensive spell with any Pow? Or would a control/debuff spell work better at a lower cost?
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 12, 2018 15:54:06 GMT
I like a lot of where this is going.
My taste would be an incorporeal lesser, with a boostable magic gun, but no special effects. No nuke spell, but perhaps Battle Wizard, and a self only version of the Morghoul2 spell that could turn him back incorporeal after commiting.
That's a lot of tech right there, and as skornedlover87 said, the utility to bring Despoiler more places. A second battlegroup focused spell with minor effects to round it out, like Escort.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 16, 2018 22:25:00 GMT
Battle Wizard itself wouldn't work since a Fury casting isn't bound to action the way that it is for other wizards. I've been trying to find the ability that allows a spell to be cast without Fury/Focus after a kill, but I can't seem to find it since I've looked in all the wrong places.
I worry about a boostable gun because if I do that, then I'd have to remove the Void Spirit rule of Annihilator and/or get rid of the melee weapons all together. That is the same concern that Skornedlover presented. Of course, it could allow for Void Walk to be returned.
As for spell list, I almost want a buff spell and a debuff spell of some kind. So, maybe Ghost Walk/Host of Shadows and Scything Touch? Or a spell that causes Blind or some Movement penalty? Or would two buffs work better? Keep in mind any animi that he may have access to, as we don't want to get redundant.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 17, 2018 1:10:11 GMT
Good point about the mechanics, though Blood Boon would serve the same roll. I missed the part that a Mordikaar2 would be a Void Spirit, with the full kit. That indeed is very powerful.
I like Axaria's incorporeal tech, and as applied to a Void Spirit, would be incredibly fun.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 17, 2018 6:29:04 GMT
Incredibly fun, and quite possibly broken. If Morghoul was a Void Spirit, it would fit, but Mordikaar is more of an energy-based character. So, here is the challenge of a Void Spirit Lesser Warlock: 1) Weapon List: Ethereal models can make great use of weapons, and ranged weapons are possibly even worse for them, especially if they can Boost. There are some other aspects here that I will go in to later, but to put it simply, we can either have a decent melee weapon or a decent ranged weapon. The Lantern was more an identity concept and any weapon attached to it was just to have a reason for it on the model. 2) Spell List: It needs to be strong enough to be desirable, but not enough to be over-powered. In addition, to that, it needs to at least partially benefit the Battlegroup in one way or another, while keeping his lowered Fury count in consideration. For example, Host of Shadows and Manifest Void would be great, but lack any range due to the significant drop of effective range. Ghost Walk works as an option. 3) Rule List: Void Spirits are plenty powerful on their own, to incorporate the Fury and Battlegroup rules, we're going to have to drop at least something. What we drop should be balanced out with what we include. It should also consider what he was capable of before. My initial write up dropped Void Walk, but allowed him to keep Poltergeist as both he and Void Spirits both have it. I initially kept Annihilator since this was inherent Void ability, but it may be one we want to trade out as well due to his Fury mechanic. 4) Points: All of of the above has to fit in to a solo that is roughly 4 points, as all the other non-Minion Lessers are at that point range as well as the Void Spirit. I would allow consideration to make it 5 points, but at 6 we're looking at the over-priced market, especially since he's gotta haul a Warbeast in to the fight (which is likely to be the currently 19 pt Despoiler outside of Company of Iron).
So, as a rough starting point, here is roughly what I'm looking at right now: Void Essence Mordikaar Skorne Void Spirit Solo
MORDIKAAR2 SPD: 6; STR: 5; MAT: 5; RAT: 6
DEF: 15; ARM: 14; CMD: 8
FURY: 4; DMG: 5; PC: 5
Base: Small
MORDIKAAR2
Undead - Not living, but can provide corpses.
Incorporeal - More or less ignore terrain, and most damage doesn't matter.
Lesser Warlock - Fury Management, Battlegroup Controller, etc
Poltergeist - If an enemy misses, they may be pushed d3" direct away. {Writer's note: It is at this point that things are getting over-powered or over-costed if we add more}
WEAPONS Void Lantern: Ranged; RNG: 8; ROF: 1; AOE: 3; POW: -; Magical * Spirit Light - Models hit with this Weapon lose Incorporeal. * Blind - Models hit lose MAT, DEF, and ability to Run.
Rend: Melee; RNG: 0.5; POW: 6; P+S: 11; Magical {Writer's Note: With the Weapons, I'm considering dropping Rend for changing the Lantern to a Gunfighter, short range (8-10'), Magical, hitting hard with just blind, but it could be a more focused version of his Death Blast (i.e. same but no AOE) as well.}
SPELLS Scything Touch - Cost: 2; RNG: 6"; AOE: -; POW: -; DUR: UP; OFF: No; * Friendly Faction model gains Dark Shroud (enemy models in melee range suffer -2 ARM). Hellfire - Cost: 3; RNG: 10"; AOE: -; POW 14; DUR: -; OFF: Yes * Models disabled by Hellfire cannot make a Tough roll. Models boxed by Hellfire are removed from play.
{Writer's Note: I'm also considering Calaban's Bone Shaker, Jaga-Jaga's Grave Wind, or Hexeris1's Sunder Spirit.}
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 17, 2018 16:22:22 GMT
Firstly I'd like to thank you for contributing such a detailed list considerations to the thread. My own reflection on them are taking a more removed perspective of direction.
I believe the primary objective should be to produce a model that is not only effective, but dynamic and engaging. It must be interesting. To that end, I think the 4pt cap is not a core requirement, and Sevy0 is a precedent.
Relatedly, there is a difference regarding the fluff element he could or should return to play as. Will he emerge from the belly of the Wurm as a spirit, or corporeal? If the former, the Void Spirit kit is appropriate, and should be the baseline. If the latter, a more unbound approach could be implemented.
To make a dynamic m9del, a consideration must be made whether he should inject completely new options, or reinvent the wheel. Zaadesh1 is nominally a forward presence lesser that wants ultimately to close and engage. I have already stated I like him as an incorporeal forward presence lesser, without a gun. A super solo with a mandatory battlegroup tax, likely Despoiler. The other option of course is to go a completely different dirextion from Zaadesh1, which who knows what that may look like.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 17, 2018 17:30:57 GMT
Mordikaar1 isn't a forward character in and of himself, but (currently) a close range caster type due to his CTRL range spells and having Life Drinker weapons. This makes for a difficult situation in making him a Lesser. I mostly came to this because he's in the Void, and having a known Warlock downgrade would make for a fascinating study. The challenge then becomes downgrading him enough so he's not broken, while keeping him interesting. Would him losing the Lantern and gaining Void Walk provide for that?
We would also want him to have spells which contribute to that close front skill set, is what I listed worth it, or do you have some ideas as to what may better suit this set? Manifest Void is an interesting spell, but is partly addressed through the Despoiler's animus, which is part of the considerations we need when writing this up.
As to the point costs, just part of it is in keeping with the other lesser Warlocks. Junior Warcasters are almost comparable, but they can't Transfer Damage, either, which can be important for a low Damage solo.
The other aspect is keeping the point cost in mind (And so, the rules and spells) is that we're looking at dragging the Despoiler around who is currently 19 points (though maybe 17 if he clears CID without any price changes), meaning we have to be aware of the desirability to take him in both Exalted and Imperial Warhost at that combined price.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 17, 2018 18:11:55 GMT
I like the questions you're posing, but the truth is there are too many unknowns to suggest a trajectory of development. Some core assumptions beyond lesser warlock are needed.
Manageable ones are what themes would a Mordikaar2 be included in. Would it solely be Exalted and IWH? What is knowable is that bringing Despoiler and bond into more lists a core design function, and a baseline assumption of use. On a specific related note, I think Scything Touch is a duplication of effort, considering Despoiler comes with Dark Shroud stock. Even being handed out, more ARM crack isn't really needed in those two themes, they both do it fairly well to excellent as is.
I like that Jaga-Jaga spell that hands out Poltergeist. I can't remember if it's BG only, but it's essentially a mini-Mordikaar1 feat, and fluffy. Beyond that, unless core traits on the back of the card are known, it's hard to suggest what the iteration should look like.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 17, 2018 21:33:39 GMT
Thanks for pointing out the Dark Shroud aspect of the Despoiler. Since I don't have the model, I tend to forget its rules. Still, it could be useful for other things. My overall knowledge of the game is rough since I can't play as much as many.
What kind of unknowns are you thinking of? Part of the reason I brought it here was to suss out some of those unknowns. Right now I'm presenting what would be on the back of the card, so I don't know how they would be unknown.
Grave Wind is model-only, much like Scything Touch. Now I want a Scything Touch, but for Def...
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