germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Sept 5, 2018 6:24:31 GMT
(because not enough available characters in the thread subject)
Can you know what you're talking about in WMH yet absolutely suck Firetrucking balls at the game?
I've been severely censured for a rather (sic) negative attitude (like, go second, turn 1 and scoop because scenario + attrition whitewash inevitable unless dice happen... which is ironic since I'm an alpha/assassination driven player, but I've somewhat lost count of games I've conceded without even rolling a die or finishing my first turn... and these are casual games, too), but I'm widely acknowledged to know what I'm talking about (the sum of which puzzles many), to the extent that I love chatting about the game and theory-machining, but a part of me just can't stand even putting minis on the table any more unless someone else is playing with them... I'll gladly observe a game and math-hammer stuff while the minis are moving and dice are flying, list-dojo with anyone who'll listen, but refuse even mild smack talk because I can't bring myself to actually play a damned game without conversing with my opponent for a solid hour and a half about what MIGHT happen when I'm about to stand for the bottom of 1, then reach over and say 'good game'.
Bear in mind, I've invested my fair share of money and time into this hobby, made friends with a lot of people through it, but I don't know... I can't remember what I found fun about it, other than that I did, right from the get go when I started (pissing off my opponent by somehow making a 15pt MkII game last four hours), to my first tournament placing, to SmogCon winning an IA game at 3am while watching a 300pt PoM vs LoE on a 4x4 and a year long winning streak in Mk2 with an out of theme combined arms list. Somewhere along the way, my book smarts massively overtook my ability to even entertain the idea of contemplating maybe deploying an army and my capacity to think 'Firetruck it, it's a dice rolling game of pushing little soldiers and machines about, what's the worst that could happen?!'. I do know my confidence took a substantial hit sometime winter 2017-8, for some reason I honest to God don't know, but only know that it hasn't recovered, and even if it did recover a little, I'd lose it as quickly as how little of it I got back. I don't know what I find fun about PLAYING Warmachine, nor what I want to get out of PLAYING Warmachine, other than I have fun talking about the technical aspects of the game and socialising with others just talking about the game, even (or perhaps especially) when they're playing. While this would be OK in the short term, I just fear that at some point, I'll get called out for being a hypocrite and jackass since I can critique tactics competently and recount a player's list's rules in their entirety (whether I play the faction or not) but can't even muster the courage to pick up a Firetrucking die and roll it, leading all the shit to come out. And then I get that nagging feeling about other players who, behind my back, say 'you know, he knows a lot about WMH and he comes here nearly every week... but I've never seen him play, why's that?'
Ugh... not sure whether the level of retarded in this is worse than it appears in that I'm currently playing Cryx...!!
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 5, 2018 6:42:29 GMT
To me it sounds like you've gone too deep into the theorymachine tank and it's making you over analyze every move, leading to a sort of action paralysis.
I would suggest (granted without knowing anything about your group) that you try to play very casually for a while and just play games instead of analyzing them. Stuff like getting to the table and rolling a dice to determine your caster, then rolling for two heavies, one unit and two solos before packing out the rest of the list with whatever. Or mad uneven non-steamroller scenarios, something like that. Even if your meta is competitive, any sensible player will happily play a game against the "casual" player because it gives them a chance to practice their list. Especially useful when it sounds like the person across the table is likely able to give them some handy post game thoughts.
Don't worry so much about winning. Sure, someone might make it so that on your turn one you're very unlikely to win (though as you say, dice happen), so at that point set yourself a different goal and if you complete that then take that as a small win for yourself. Something like killing a certain heavy, scoring a certain zone or getting your caster to do something cool. I had Strakhov2 cast Last Stand on himself and he and his kommandos took out a heavy and half a battle engine before dying in one of my recent games. Sure I lost the game, but who cares? Went out in a blaze of glory! Plus I got table time with a list I've been tweaking, so it was a win-win.
Play games to the end so both you and your opponent get a full game experience, save the theorymachine discussion on the game until after the game to prevent it dragging out, and most importantly take a step back from worrying about winning every game.
All this will definitely be easier said than done, but hopefully something in my rambling helps!
Cheers, Dave
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Post by Gamingdevil on Sept 5, 2018 7:03:22 GMT
I would say, yes it's possible, but I wouldn't say that you [expletive deleted] at this game. In many ways this game is kind of like chess in that your opening matters a lot and then there are an infinite amount of possibilities the game plays out after that, but they are all foreseeable. (dice matter, but a good player will minimize the impact they can have) It's easy to get stuck into decision paralysis based on all the options you have available and the counters your opponent has available. This especially matters with control casters who often have a plethora of options available any given turn, but have to select a sub-set of them to actually execute. I think it's important to realize that, just like in chess, of course your opponent always has some path to victory, especially when they haven't lost anything yet. But, so do you. Your opponent's actions matter a lot and this game is a constant back and forth based on actions taken by both players changing the state of the game. It's not because there is a possible convoluted path to victory in turn 4 that that will be your opponent's game plan or that the game will play out this way. Countering decision paralysis is a big reason why it can sometimes help to play on the (death)clock, because it forces you to make decisions and the person that can make the best decisions the quickest will often still win the game, because the other person will make sub-optimal decisions and/or clock themselves. There's nothing wrong with theorymachining or talking to your opponent/friend about a game, but try to keep it for outside of a game (unless teaching/practicing, then small suggestions or questions can help) Back seat driving is actually very easy in any game. Note how people watch a quiz on TV and often get an answer when the candidate got it wrong and they think how could this person not know this. Usually they do, but pressure caused them to black out. Or when people spectate a game of Hearthstone and can see lethal before the player, because they don't have to deal with any of the pressure and/or don't get tunnel visioned into executing the "optimal strategy". The same goes for Warmachine and actually executing the theory on the table is something entirely different than thinking about the theory. Being able to make quick assessments and solid decisions based on them is a valuable skill to have, both in this game and in life. Honing that skill and beating my opponent based on my wits, while constantly reevaluating my strategy based on the board state is something I enjoy immensely. I assume this is/used to be the same for you and that's what originally drew you into this game. You could also see playing games as putting the theory into practice and confirming the ideas you have. Maybe you'll find that they don't work out as you expected and it's back to the drawing board. Or you will find that it works very well and you can refine the idea. Play whatever you like and go from there, even if it is kind of janky. The important part is that you both have fun, play a game, banter a bit, smash the opposing models and all around have a good time, preferably without getting lost in your own mind, because I doubt that's fun for anybody. If you really can't do that, considering becoming a coach for players wanting to step up their game and/or for a WTC team. Keep in mind that you will still have to play some games to show them what you mean TL;DR: Sometimes you just have to say "Firetruck it" and go with a decision in the spirit of having a good game.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Sept 6, 2018 0:09:08 GMT
Here are a selection of ideas, starting with the one I think would do you the most good (from the tiny but I know) and working down to this that might help.
I would strongly recommend picking up mindfulness meditation as a hobby, because you sounds like you are stuck so deeply in your head that you can't even see your way back, and mindfulness may well help you learn to live in the moment again.
My first suggestion would be to take some time off from playing. Don't even bring models to the store! Go, hang out, talk to people. Maybe focus on the hobby side for a while, I have found painting to be very therapeutic, and it is way more fun to play with the model you just painted!
I second the clock suggestion. If you are used to a clock cut a quarter (or half?) off your clock, anything to get out of your head and start moving models. I know a guy that plays better on the clock than of the clock. Lightning chess is a great palate cleanser in chess, you just have to be careful to play just as cleanly for the last minute as the first.
Good luck!
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Sept 7, 2018 10:49:20 GMT
Hi all,
Thanks for the responses, appreciate you taking the time to air ideas. For now, I'm taking a step back from the game, and in the meantime, the local ex-PG has asked me to judge at an event or two if I can make them. And since I am in possession of about 80pts of Cryx unpainted (more, now, I think, now that I've assembled my first unit of Banes...), I'll slap some paint on them at long last, though Toruk forgive me, I need a tutorial or three on painting skin tones...(!) Finish assembling Malice/Corruptor and plan out a Denny2 BI list.
I'll agree that most of it is in my own head and I need to worry less, and not least because it's a game. It wasn't long ago that I metaphorically Wrack'd myself every week (with my non-Destor Ret) trying to come up with a list pairing that could answer literally everything in the game, and consequently never touching a model or die. This still bothers me, but at least I've stopped thinking about the whole idealised list pairing, since I've set what I actually want to play in Cryx (three themes, choice limits and caveats that are only there for the sake of my wallet, not any desire to limit the strength of my Cryx roster).
Hopefully, an upcoming IKRPG variant campaign will get my mind off of the rest of the negativity as well. Then I can come back in a few weeks', months' or however long a time somewhat refreshed.
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Post by marxlives on Sept 26, 2018 15:47:54 GMT
Been losing more games than winning for 10+ years and still having fun.
Honestly, as someone who knows the lore and the technical aspects of the game your niche or happiness may not be being a competitive player. Which is not unusual.
Some players are hobbyists and others are competitive players, so where do you fit?
As someone who suffers from the same issues as you (lore and inside rules expert) where can we find happiness?
As with sports you may find your happiness for the game as a coach and event organizer. I have found good success as this. I have been a coach/practice dummy of good and sometimes great players in my area for almost 15 years. I have seen players who knew nothing about the game grow as I encouraged them to grow. And I have also ran some memorable local events.
At the end of the day everyone wants to be part of a community and be useful to that community. The fact that you hang out and talk shop about the game means you want to be part of the community, the main issue seems to be finding your niche or usefulness within it. So start coaching games with players, enjoy seeing people grow, and throw some awesome events.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Sept 27, 2018 2:05:34 GMT
Been losing more games than winning for 10+ years and still having fun. Honestly, as someone who knows the lore and the technical aspects of the game your niche or happiness may not be being a competitive player. Which is not unusual. Some players are hobbyists and others are competitive players, so where do you fit? As someone who suffers from the same issues as you (lore and inside rules expert) where can we find happiness? As with sports you may find your happiness for the game as a coach and event organizer. I have found good success as this. I have been a coach/practice dummy of good and sometimes great players in my area for almost 15 years. I have seen players who knew nothing about the game grow as I encouraged them to grow. And I have also ran some memorable local events. At the end of the day everyone wants to be part of a community and be useful to that community. The fact that you hang out and talk shop about the game means you want to be part of the community, the main issue seems to be finding your niche or usefulness within it. So start coaching games with players, enjoy seeing people grow, and throw some awesome events. this is some really awesome advice! I know that I get a lot out of watching players grow, and getting beaten for the first time by someone you taught as a new player is a particularly fun way to lose a game.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Sept 27, 2018 6:40:11 GMT
Play CID games! You should talk about the ifs and coulds there, it does not matter who wins, you might even reverse mistakes and in the end the very game of warmachine itself is winner!
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Post by HighPaladin on Sept 28, 2018 14:34:45 GMT
I actually think it's pretty difficult to really know what you're talking about and be fundamentally bad at the game. Having a good sense of the game, how rules interactions work and how match ups and games flow is what tends to make someone good at the game.
The specific problem you describe is something I wouldn't classify as being bad. Rather, you're just not playing the game at all, as you're conceding before the game has begun. No one has ever lost round 1 going second without making catastrophically bad decisions.
I do think that if you can't stop yourself conceding early, you should probably just stop playing for a while. It's a really bad experience for your opponent to set up a table, get models out, spend time talking about the match up and then not play a game.
The advice above about getting into tournament/event organisation and encouraging new players is really sound advice - I know some people who enjoy the game but realise they'll never be super competitive, so focus on enjoying the community and organising events.
P.S. I do know what you mean about list pairing analysis getting all consuming and leading to paralysis. I think eventually you just have to realise that you're going to have some awkward matchups, though, and you just need to play out of them.
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Post by anderfreak on Oct 2, 2018 18:21:21 GMT
Talking out the possibilities is great, but ultimately your opponent only has so many options, and just like chess, maybe your opponent doesn't see the optimal move you think they'll make.
Half the fun is seeing what little mistakes you and your opponent make during the actual gameplay that compound into something much different than what the theory says it should be. It's incredibly rare in my experience to have a game where someone doesn't misplace something, or doesn't forget some aspect of your army composition that you can exploit to their surprise.
Checkmate in 3 is often subverted by an unexpected play, and that's what I find exciting personally.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 3, 2018 6:52:50 GMT
Talking out the possibilities is great, but ultimately your opponent only has so many options, and just like chess, maybe your opponent doesn't see the optimal move you think they'll make. Half the fun is seeing what little mistakes you and your opponent make during the actual gameplay that compound into something much different than what the theory says it should be. It's incredibly rare in my experience to have a game where someone doesn't misplace something, or doesn't forget some aspect of your army composition that you can exploit to their surprise. Checkmate in 3 is often subverted by an unexpected play, and that's what I find exciting personally. I agree with you, but in a game as complex as this one, it goes much further than that. It's not just about making mistakes, it's that you basically don't think the same as your opponent, approximately ever. The "optimal move" that you see might have unexpected consequences that you didn't see. Or perhaps your opponent saw the possibility and the long-term benefits, but decides that he needs short-term benefits more. The "optimal move" may also depend on dice and could fail, with no contingency available, where a good player will adapt his plan on the fly or simply not go for something risky. Strategies change all the time over the course of a game and your opponent might not even have the same endgame plan as you are thinking of, for instance he might push for a scenario win, where you assume he will always get to your caster.
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Post by GumbaFish on Oct 7, 2018 17:08:15 GMT
As others have mentioned perhaps your strength in theory has become a weakness in play since you view the game as much more deterministic than it actually is. If you play out the optimal moves of each player in your mind and think that you can't win then you forget about a few important things. Your opponent may not have as much knowledge about the game as you do and may not pilot the list to its full potential. Also, since the game is often about reacting to your opponent they may react to a move you make in a completely unpredictable way. I have had games on both sides of the table where something was done that completely surprised the other person. Maybe taking a step back from making lists or thinking on the theory to focus on other parts of the hobby like painting, running events, etc... might help clear your mind. I find whenever I start to feel paralyzed by choice at the start of my turn I try to realize what is happening and just start moving models around even if it isn't the most optimal thing to be doing. I'm not a hyper competitive person though so for me it is more fun to get on with having a game then agonizing for ages on a single thing.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Oct 16, 2018 12:05:07 GMT
Mini update...
Thanks for all the advice and good will, chap(esse)s, and getting a job (even if some of its particulars annoy the hell out of me) has also helped my situation. Anyway, after spell as the local judge (helping out the local ex-PG with running his events when I can), and just generally talking shop both online and IRL, I had a game today and went in a tad nervous (didn't really mean to play, but since I didn't have a good excuse to refuse (they knew my reasons for pausing for however long) and because I actually wanted to play, I openly stated a simple desire to throw dice and hang the consequences).
And praises to Toruk, I had fun. I fielded an OK-ish Denny1 Scourge list against Madrak1 Band of Heroes and played a solid game, knew what mistakes I made and made a surprisingly early push for scenario (turn 3, must be a record...!) and we stopped on turn 4 (both for time and) when we realised he couldn't stop me from scoring CP turn 5 to win on scenario. Granted, damn near all the dice went my way, a fact of which we both acknowledged (sure, it helps, but it can take away from how well I think of myself as a player), but I'm glad with the game I played (nothing too out there, but sensible tactics, logical allocation of resources, mindfulness of scenario, knowing my list's rules, mindfulness of scenario, sensible placement for the most part, mindfulness of scenario(!) etc.), even with the, perhaps not outright errors per se, but mis-steps here and there (like Axiara was out of position for most of the game, should've pushed Denny further on turn 1, not committed my second chicken so early... and other little things). Hopefully, I can simultaneously keep a bit of a distance from the genuinely intense nature of the game and remain immersed in it, just need to find that balance.
A good afternoon's mini-pushing-across-a-table.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 17, 2018 6:27:45 GMT
Great to hear germanicus! Don't worry about the model placements just yet; it's always tricky to make the most out of models you haven't played a couple of dozen times. I'm still getting the hang of optimising Axiara's use as well, it'll come to you if you keep rolling dem dice
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Oct 17, 2018 9:17:00 GMT
Now to repair a few lacerators... -_-
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