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Post by mcdermott on Sept 3, 2018 2:04:54 GMT
Yknow what, I'll take it back. Having just dug up the skinwalker ikrpg class, it specifically comments on skinwalker/warlocks. Cross your fingers for one of those for the wolves of oroborus CID in the future.
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bacon
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by bacon on Sept 3, 2018 2:39:27 GMT
Yknow what, I'll take it back. Having just dug up the skinwalker ikrpg class, it specifically comments on skinwalker/warlocks. Cross your fingers for one of those for the wolves of oroborus CID in the future. Calling it now Grayle 2 will be a skinwalker
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Sept 3, 2018 3:38:54 GMT
They have retconned a lot of stuff the IKRPG. Previously Tharn were never capable of becoming warlocks. It was something completely unique to Kromac and partially responsible for his rise to power and his working with the Circle or as an equal-ish among some blackclads rather than just being used by them as canon fodder and shock-troops like the rest of the Tharn. I was kind of disappointed when Iona was announced and I checked out the RPG stuff and saw some posts from the team/heard them on podcasts talking about how they just retconned that part of the fluff. Really took Kromac down a few pegs in my opinion, but it was what it is. We may see other stranger warlocks out there, though, as a result.
What OP fails to realize, though, is that a faction like Legion is the huge exception. Cygnar, Khador, Protectorate all humans. The Skorne are lead by Skorne. The trolls by trolls. The Circle Orboros is lead by druids who are humans, but there is nothing "regular" about them. They are, after all, druids and none of the warlocks in play are even regular among druids. They are the highest ranking. Some of the wisest and most learned in arcane lore and powers on all of Caen. The Circle Orboros predates all human nations and as an entity the power and knowledge it wields and guards is really something else. I think OP is really missing the point behind this faction. By all means, play warpwolves and constructs. They are cool, but at the end of the day are just tools used by The Circle. Not proactive members thereof.
I would urge OP to read more about what the faction is about and who the characters are. You'll see they aren't just regular old humans. If you don't like the models then you don't like them. Play with what looks coolest to you. Maybe Legion or Cryx is just more your preference if you like undead and gribbly monstrosities. Personally I love most of our models. Give me cloaks and cowls, axes and floating stones covered in runes any day.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 3, 2018 3:47:21 GMT
Legion, cryx grymkin and minions are the only ones that immediately leap out as factions with multiple races of caster. An argument for convergence if human/robot counts.
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Post by toxichobbit on Sept 3, 2018 6:26:50 GMT
Cygnar - humans. Protectorate - humans. Cryx - a combination of living and undead snowflakes. Khador - humans, ancient deity. Mercenaries - humans, cephalyx, dwarves. Retribution - elves. Convergence - once-human constructs and one still fleshy human. Crucible Guard - humans.
Trollbloods - trollkin. Circle - humans, tharn, a tree. Skorne - skorne. Legion - varying degrees of blighted elves & blighted ogryn. Grymkin - things that were once human, ancient deity. Minions - farrow, gatormen, a human.
Yes, Tharn do count as a different race. You're lumping them in with humans completely disregarding that they are a actually different species who share their ancestors with humans, yet you're willing to demonstrate the diversity of Legion by differentiating between an elf and an elf who's helmet doesn't have eye holes? Not the strongest of evidence there .
The point I want to make is that you're lamenting the lack diversity in Circle warlocks but using the two special snowflake factions as examples. Look at the bigger picture and Circle is actually more diverse than most, having three different races of warlocks compared to many other factions one (although one of those "races" is flora rather than fauna). Even Legion have less races than Circle. Everthing in Legion is either Ogryn or Nyss. It's the blight that gives them their diversity because it fundamentally changes them in extreme ways. Same deal with Cryx. They're diverse because they are largely undead mechanical constructs, which gives plenty of leeway to have different forms.
What I'm getting at is that the reason for Cryx and Legions diversity is because it's fundamentally tied to their faction identity. Circle's identity has always been druidic humans (and the occasional tharn) leading the beasts. It's what makes Circle, Circle. There's some wiggle room while staying within the bounds of that identity (the skinwolf warlock idea above is a good example) but if we start seeing warpwolf and satyr warlocks suddenly Circle isn't a druidic circle anymore, it's just the "wild" faction. And what comes after that - do Trollbloods need a dire troll warlock, do Skorne get a titan warlock, does every WM faction need their own Karchev? I for one don't want to see faction identity sacrificed for the sake of diversity, because ultimately when every faction wants to be the special snowflake like Cryx and Legion, none of them are.
That said, if we are going to make a case of Circle's warlocks being bland (and there is defintely a case for it) then i'd say the blandness comes not from them being all human, (with a couple of tharn and a tree), but that they're mostly just single model infantry warlocks. Diversity can be explored through other avenues, such as huge based warlock (druid on some kind of levitating wold palanquin/crawling wold beetle, for example) or warlock units. Even then, Circle doesn't need much because they already have one warlock who has two forms, two cavalry warlocks and a tree warlock + solo.
I haven't mentioned Mercenaries or Minons above because although they're multi-race factions, they're more like a group of sub-factions. Their faction identity isn't one faction of different races, rather it's different sub-factions each with their own distinct identity that can be mixed together (or not, in the case of Cephalyx).
Legion, cryx grymkin and minions are the only ones that immediately leap out as factions with multiple races of caster. An argument for convergence if human/robot counts. Mercenaries are also a multi-race faction - humans, dwarves & Cephalyx. Likewise Minions are a mix of human, pigs and gators.
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Post by dragash on Sept 3, 2018 11:31:37 GMT
What OP fails to realize, though, is that a faction like Legion is the huge exception. Cygnar, Khador, Protectorate all humans. Except that none these factions have anything resembling monsters or warbeasts in their army. The Skorne are lead by Skorne. That's fair. As opposed to Warpwolves led by a Warpwolf? The Circle Orboros is lead by druids who are humans, but there is nothing "regular" about them. Bloody hell, how many times do I have to say this? Yes, I get it. Every Circle warlock is great and wonderful and clearly they're all competing for having the greatest backstory in the history of the universe. Fine. Whatever. It still doesn't change the fact that all their models are just those of regular, boring humans in increasingly silly outfits. I would urge OP to read more about what the faction is about and who the characters are. I would urge you to consider that I'm not talking about a bloody novel here. If you want me to read about Circle in-depth you first need to convince me to start the army. Something that the current line of warlock models has utterly failed to do. Yes, Tharn do count as a different race. You're lumping them in with humans completely disregarding that they are a actually different species who share their ancestors with humans, yet you're willing to demonstrate the diversity of Legion by differentiating between an elf and an elf who's helmet doesn't have eye holes? Not the strongest of evidence there . Given that I was talking specifically about the models (not the fluff), it probably doesn't say much for the Tharn race that I literally couldn't tell the difference between them and humans. The point I want to make is that you're lamenting the lack diversity in Circle warlocks but using the two special snowflake factions as examples. Look at the bigger picture and Circle is actually more diverse than most, having three different races of warlocks compared to many other factions one (although one of those "races" is flora rather than fauna). So Circle have humans, race-that-looks-exactly-like-humans-but-is-apparently-different, and a tree. Is this supposed to be a rebuttal to my point? Because it really doesn't address it in any meaningful way. What I'm getting at is that the reason for Cryx and Legions diversity is because it's fundamentally tied to their faction identity. Circle's identity has always been druidic humans (and the occasional tharn) leading the beasts. It's what makes Circle, Circle. There's some wiggle room while staying within the bounds of that identity (the skinwolf warlock idea above is a good example) but if we start seeing warpwolf and satyr warlocks suddenly Circle isn't a druidic circle anymore, it's just the "wild" faction. That's disappointing but fair enough. That said, if we are going to make a case of Circle's warlocks being bland (and there is defintely a case for it) then i'd say the blandness comes not from them being all human, (with a couple of tharn and a tree), but that they're mostly just single model infantry warlocks. Diversity can be explored through other avenues, such as huge based warlock (druid on some kind of levitating wold palanquin/crawling wold beetle, for example) or warlock units. Even then, Circle doesn't need much because they already have one warlock who has two forms, two cavalry warlocks and a tree warlock + solo.
Maybe that would work for Circle's identity, but it's not the sort of diversity that would make me want to play the faction. Personally, what drew me to this faction was "normal-looking" humans, small and relatively unassuming, controlling the giant, slavering monsters. It's also the fact that they're often so picturesque or "clean" looking on the outside, and yet really genocidal civilization murderers on the inside. Morvhana is especially intriguing to me--beautiful, clever, manipulative--but I like all of them. I also like the mystique that all blackclads command in the fluff. Sure, they look like "boring" humans, but whenever a blackclad walks into a village, people view them with dread and quail away. See, I think this is a big part of the issue. Because that's all cool ideas and definitely stuff I can get behind... in a novel. However, in terms of their actual models, none of them make me want to start Circle. I'm sorry for having the wrong opinion on this, but I just look at Circle's gorgeous Warpwolf models and think to myself 'I wish I could have something like this leading my army'. Then I look at the actual warlock models and just lose all interest.
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Post by paradox on Sept 3, 2018 14:00:37 GMT
Guess Circle isnt for you, then.
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Post by dragash on Sept 3, 2018 15:26:25 GMT
Guess Circle isnt for you, then. Thank you for your insightful response.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Sept 3, 2018 18:01:43 GMT
Not really sure what your point is. Are you expecting someone to convince you to like models you don't like? If you don't like the models then you don't like them. There are many other factions to pick from and that's fine. Just play what you like the look of. I'm sure you're well aware by now there are good reasons for why the Circle warlocks are the way the way are. You might not like those reasons or just not care about them, but that's still the way it is. What you're asking for, outside of one or two weird scenarios, just wouldn't make any sense in terms of the faction or the setting.
Also, Trollbloods are not led by their warbeasts. Trollkin, Pygmy Trolls, Fullblood Trolls and Dire Trolls are all very different. You really should dig into the lore of the game. It might help make it easier to find a faction you really like.
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Post by dragash on Sept 3, 2018 18:20:57 GMT
Not really sure what your point is. Are you expecting someone to convince you to like models you don't like? No, though there have nevertheless been several attempts to convince me that I've somehow misinterpreted my own opinion. All I was asking in this thread was whether anyone else would like to see Circle casters that resembled their warbeasts. It seems, however, that I am the only one who would like that; so I'll just chalk it down to me being weird. I'm sure you're well aware by now there are good reasons for why the Circle warlocks are the way the way are. You might not like those reasons or just not care about them, but that's still the way it is. What you're asking for, outside of one or two weird scenarios, just wouldn't make any sense in terms of the faction or the setting. Indeed. I think it's a pity, but I accept it nonetheless. Also, Trollbloods are not led by their warbeasts. Trollkin, Pygmy Trolls, Fullblood Trolls and Dire Trolls are all very different. Even if the casters aren't identical to their warbeasts, it's still trolls led by trolls. You really should dig into the lore of the game. It might help make it easier to find a faction you really like. I think perhaps you and I are approaching this from opposite sides? You keep telling me to read up on the fluff, but that is simply not how I pick an army. In fact, to me the fluff is tertiary at best. I am coming at this from the perspective of the actual models (with rules/playstyle being a close second). Fluff is something I might read a little of if I find it interesting, but it's just not something I find useful for picking an army. For example, in the case of the aforementioned Trollbloods, no amount of fluff will change the fact that I think they're ugly as sin. Likewise, an army could have amazing fluff, but if I don't get along with its playstyle then it's simply of no interest to me. You clearly differ greatly in that you appear to value fluff first and rules/aesthetics second. This is perfectly fine, but please understand that it simply doesn't work for me.
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envoy
Read Page 5
Posts: 21
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Post by envoy on Sept 3, 2018 20:38:22 GMT
As for trolls, I actually find the big hands and chin rocks endearing. To each his own?
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Post by toxichobbit on Sept 3, 2018 20:39:36 GMT
Given that I was talking specifically about the models (not the fluff), it probably doesn't say much for the Tharn race that I literally couldn't tell the difference between them and humans. Yet you make distinctions for Legion based on Lylith wearing a helmet with no eye holes. You specifically said elves, then went on to put eyeless elves as a seperate part of their diversity (followed by more blighted stuff, which I agree with you do add a lot of diversity to Legion). Lylith isn't diverse, she's just a normal blighted Nyss with a helmet. She's Saeryn, Vayl or Rhyass in different clothes. And you wouldn't know she was blind unless you actually were into the background which you apparently aren't talking about (more on that below). Tharn are significantly more different to humans than Lylith is to her peers, with a tribal aesthetic, pointed ears, claws, face masks, less clothing, a general barbarian appearance. and less refined weapons. So Circle have humans, race-that-looks-exactly-like-humans-but-is-apparently-different, and a tree. Is this supposed to be a rebuttal to my point? Because it really doesn't address it in any meaningful way. It does address your point, just not in an obvious way. I didn't want to be blunt because I didn't want to come across as offensive. To hell with that though, I'll just say exactly what I mean this time and if you get offended, tough . You come across as having double standards for diversity in a faction. While I agree that the really blighted stuff in Legion is significantly more diverse than Circle warlocks (apart from the tree; it's really unique, although lets face it not the most exciting of concepts), you're willing to explore the diversity between Lylith (eyeless elves, as you put it) and other minimally blighted Nyss like Saeryn, Rhyas and Vayl. That diversity is barely there and only really apparant if you read the background. To a casul onlooker, Lylith is just Saeryn with a helmet and bow. Just like to a casual onlooker Tharn are just humans dressed differently. The devil is in the details, as I said above. The tribal aesthetic, the severed body parts, the bone jewelry and headresses, the pointed ears and claws, the transformation the male Tharn undergo, the more animalistic posing of the miniatures. I find it frustrating that you're clearly capable and willing to look closesly at Legion and see the diversity between Lylith and the others, yet not willing to do the same for Circle to explore the diversity between the Druids and the Tharn. Then on top of that you are being negative about it and wanting it to change. Circle's only Tharn warlock is Kromac, who in beastial form (Kromac 1 alternate and Kromac 2) is noticeably different to any other Circle warlock, even to a random person just browsing the models. He's way more than just a "big human" and I don't believe for a second that you can't see that. When you go beyond the warlocks and look into the units/solos, this diversity only becomes more apparant.
Basically, it's annoying that you seperate out elves and eyeless elves for your chosen faction, then go on to claim that Tharn look just like humans when talking about Circle. If you're going to accuse a faction of a lack of diversity, then at least put in as much effort as you do with Legion to investigate it properly first, otherwise you can expect the kind of responses you've got in this thread.
If that diversity isn't enough for you and you want more and something that's less human-looking than the Tharn are, then that's a valid point. I can fully understand why Legion would be more appealing as they come from a more unusual baseline (from our perspective as humans) and they definitely diverge more from that blighted elf baseline with the draconic monstrosities they become. Plus the blighted Ogryn are very different to the blighted Nyss. I certainly see the appeal of Legion over Circle for that reason and why you'd want that diversity in other factions you're interested in. I'm sorry for having the wrong opinion on this, but I just look at Circle's gorgeous Warpwolf models and think to myself 'I wish I could have something like this leading my army'. Then I look at the actual warlock models and just lose all interest. Your opinion isn't wrong, but due to the faction identity of Circle it's probably wishful thinking. I very much doubt we're going to see a Warpwolf warlock anytime soon. Maybe a Skinwalker in a year or two when they do the Wolfsworn theme force, but until then it's humans (and feral not-humans) or nothing I'm afraid. I don't want to speak for everyone, but I feel given the answers in this thread that the subtle differences between the Circle warlocks are what attract people to Circle, with the druids being powerful, manipulative, controlling individuals who look like normal humans, while the Tharn are more wild, bestial and less human. So you're probably not going to find many kindred spirits who want huge hulking warbeast-style warlocks. Those type of people are more than likely already playing Legion or Cryx. Up to you whether you accept the "boring" human warlocks as the price to pay for being able to use warbeasts you like, or go back to a more diverse faction.
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Post by dragash on Sept 3, 2018 21:11:48 GMT
Yet you make distinctions for Legion based on Lylith wearing a helmet with no eye holes. You specifically said elves, then went on to put eyeless elves as a seperate part of their diversity (followed by more blighted stuff, which I agree with you do add a lot of diversity to Legion). Lylith isn't diverse, she's just a normal blighted Nyss with a helmet. She's Saeryn, Vayl or Rhyass in different clothes. And you wouldn't know she was blind unless you actually were into the background which you apparently aren't talking about (more on that below). Tharn are significantly more different to humans than Lylith is to her peers, with a tribal aesthetic, pointed ears, claws, face masks, less clothing, a general barbarian appearance. and less refined weapons. You're right, I shouldn't have put Lylyth into a separate category. Honestly, I'm not even sure why I did. I think I had it in my head that the eyeless thing made her significantly different, but you're completely right. As with Kallus, I shouldn't have included it because it's not obvious on her model. You come across as having double standards for diversity in a faction. While I agree that the really blighted stuff in Legion is significantly more diverse than Circle warlocks (apart from the tree; it's really unique, although lets face it not the most exciting of concepts), you're willing to explore the diversity between Lylith (eyeless elves, as you put it) and other minimally blighted Nyss like Saeryn, Rhyas and Vayl. That diversity is barely there and only really apparant if you read the background. To a casul onlooker, Lylith is just Saeryn with a helmet and bow. As above, putting Lylyth as a separate category was a mistake on my part and for that I apologise. Just like to a casual onlooker Tharn are just humans dressed differently. The devil is in the details, as I said above. The tribal aesthetic, the severed body parts, the bone jewelry and headresses, the pointed ears and claws, the transformation the male Tharn undergo, the more animalistic posing of the miniatures. I find it frustrating that you're clearly capable and willing to look closesly at Legion and see the diversity between Lylith and the others, yet not willing to do the same for Circle to explore the diversity between the Druids and the Tharn. Then on top of that you are being negative about it and wanting it to change. Circle's only Tharn warlock is Kromac, who in beastial form (Kromac 1 alternate and Kromac 2) is noticeably different to any other Circle warlock, even to a random person just browsing the models. He's way more than just a "big human" and I don't believe for a second that you can't see that. When you go beyond the warlocks and look into the units/solos, this diversity only becomes more apparant. 1) I've already said I was wrong to separate out Lylyth from the other unaltered elves. 2) The differences between Tharn and other druids simply isn't the diversity I'm looking for. The whole point is that they still look like humans - which is exactly what I *don't* want. 3) Regarding Kromac, I was being a little facetious when I called him a big human, but I think the point still stands. The reason I compared him to Mr. Hyde is that, whilst not quite human, he still bears far more resemblance to a human than to any of our actual warbeasts. Basically, it's annoying that you seperate out elves and eyeless elves for your chosen faction, then go on to claim that Tharn look just like humans when talking about Circle. If you're going to accuse a faction of a lack of diversity, then at least put in as much effort as you do with Legion to investigate it properly first, otherwise you can expect the kind of responses you've got in this thread.
For the 4th time, I admit that separating out Lylyth was completely wrong and a mistake on my part. If that diversity isn't enough for you and you want more and something that's less human-looking than the Tharn are, then that's a valid point. I can fully understand why Legion would be more appealing as they come from a more unusual baseline (from our perspective as humans) and they definitely diverge more from that blighted elf baseline with the draconic monstrosities they become. Plus the blighted Ogryn are very different to the blighted Nyss. I certainly see the appeal of Legion over Circle for that reason and why you'd want that diversity in other factions you're interested in. This does indeed sum up what I would like. Your opinion isn't wrong, but due to the faction identity of Circle it's probably wishful thinking. I very much doubt we're going to see a Warpwolf warlock anytime soon. Maybe a Skinwalker in a year or two when they do the Wolfsworn theme force, but until then it's humans (and feral not-humans) or nothing I'm afraid. I don't want to speak for everyone, but I feel given the answers in this thread that the subtle differences between the Circle warlocks are what attract people to Circle, with the druids being powerful, manipulative, controlling individuals who look like normal humans, while the Tharn are more wild, bestial and less human. So you're probably not going to find many kindred spirits who want huge hulking warbeast-style warlocks. Those type of people are more than likely already playing Legion or Cryx. Up to you whether you accept the "boring" human warlocks as the price to pay for being able to use warbeasts you like, or go back to a more diverse faction. For the record, I'd settle for a Skinwalker caster instead of a Warpwolf one. I get your point, though. Thank your for your answer.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 3, 2018 22:14:24 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised to find a skinwalker caster in the wolves CID Grayle2
Edit: although..i imagine the hyper regeneration rule inherent to a warlock could prove problematic from a balance perspective.
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Post by dragash on Sept 4, 2018 8:09:01 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised to find a skinwalker caster in the wolves CID Grayle2 Edit: although..i imagine the hyper regeneration rule inherent to a warlock could prove problematic from a balance perspective. What about the Warlocks that already have Hyper Regeneration? I thought with most of them it was regarded as a largely inconsequential thing, since assassinations generally won't give them the chance to make use of it. Regardless, I hope you're right about seeing a Skinwalker caster in wolves CID. Any idea when that's likely to come out?
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