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Post by dragash on Aug 30, 2018 19:35:59 GMT
A while back (in MK2), I bought some Cryx models from ebay:
Skarre1 Deathjack Seether Ripjaw 10 Bane Warriors 6 Bane Warriors 6 Mechanathralls Necrosurgeon and Stitch Thralls The Withershadow Combine Bane Lord Tartarus Skarlock Thrall
Obviously it was originally designed to work with Skarre1, but the change to her feat has hurt it greatly.
Anyway, I'm actually more interested in using Skarre2. And I was wondering if I can make any sort of viable Skarre2 list with the stuff I have above?
So, could the above actually form the core of a reasonable Skarre2 list? Or would I basically have to purchase an entirely different army for her?
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Post by grotsnik on Aug 31, 2018 2:38:44 GMT
I would say that nowadays a reasonable list must be a theme force list, and the problem here is that you have some infernal machine models (thralls) and some dark host ones (banes) and none of these themes are particularly good with skarre2 (IM is utter crap with every caster), my advise would be get a kraken and use it along with DJ, the seether and the ripjaw in black industries; you can even use the withershadow combine there. Maybe an ILO for the seether, and some other heavies (and you will need one or two extra 7pt jacks that will be free in theme) and you should have a more or less playable list.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 31, 2018 6:37:16 GMT
As already said, those models are a bit all over the place concerning themes, though most of them fit into Infernal Machines (only the Banes don't fit) and you can't play the Withershadow and Skarlock Thrall together anymore as they are both caster attachments.
What are you looking for in the list? Do you want to be truly competitive or just a having something you can play for fun? If the latter, what you have can mostly work, Deathjack and Tartarus can murder lots of things with the feat and for the rest you can pick your battles on what to feat on.
Skarre 2 got slightly less good at running multiple high value heavies in MK3, this because she lost Perdition, so all her threat ranges are quite static. I would not recommend her with the above models as she doesn't synergize with them very well. If you really want to run her, you can look into running a bunch of heavies in Black Industries, but she can also work well with a Kraken in Slaughter Fleet Raiders and Scourge of the Broken Coast (SFR is my favorite)
What point values are you looking to play at? Are there any other models or casters you would like to get?
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Post by dragash on Aug 31, 2018 9:46:21 GMT
I would say that nowadays a reasonable list must be a theme force list, and the problem here is that you have some infernal machine models (thralls) and some dark host ones (banes) and none of these themes are particularly good with skarre2 (IM is utter crap with every caster), my advise would be get a kraken and use it along with DJ, the seether and the ripjaw in black industries; you can even use the withershadow combine there. Maybe an ILO for the seether, and some other heavies (and you will need one or two extra 7pt jacks that will be free in theme) and you should have a more or less playable list. Hmm, that's disappointing. Is there any way to do Black Industries without a Kraken? I've never liked the gargantuans. As already said, those models are a bit all over the place concerning themes, though most of them fit into Infernal Machines (only the Banes don't fit) and you can't play the Withershadow and Skarlock Thrall together anymore as they are both caster attachments. What are you looking for in the list? Do you want to be truly competitive or just a having something you can play for fun? If the latter, what you have can mostly work, Deathjack and Tartarus can murder lots of things with the feat and for the rest you can pick your battles on what to feat on. Well, it would be nice to have something that's at least moderately competitive. Skarre 2 got slightly less good at running multiple high value heavies in MK3, this because she lost Perdition, so all her threat ranges are quite static. I would not recommend her with the above models as she doesn't synergize with them very well. If you really want to run her, you can look into running a bunch of heavies in Black Industries, but she can also work well with a Kraken in Slaughter Fleet Raiders and Scourge of the Broken Coast (SFR is my favorite) As above, I'm afraid I've little interest in using gargantuans. In any case, if she doesn't work with any of the above models, then I don't think there's much point bothering. I don't have the funds to buy a whole new army for her. What point values are you looking to play at? Are there any other models or casters you would like to get? Probably around 50pts at the moment. The other Cryx casters that interest me, albeit to a lesser degree than Skarre2, are: Goreshade 1 & 2 Asphyxious the Hellbringer The other models that most interest me are: - Malice - Leviathan - Corrupter - Hellsinger Phantom - Pistol Wraith - I also quite like Blackbane's Ghost Raiders, but I'm well aware that they and their theme have no synergy with Skarre2. (I doubt I can afford to buy all three of the above warjacks, but they're the ones I'd most like to own someday.) To be honest, I'd actually like a ranged or semi-ranged Cryx army... unfortunately I've currently got nothing but melee models.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 31, 2018 10:58:00 GMT
Probably around 50pts at the moment. The other Cryx casters that interest me, albeit to a lesser degree than Skarre2, are: Goreshade 1 & 2 Asphyxious the Hellbringer The other models that most interest me are: - Malice - Leviathan - Corrupter - Hellsinger Phantom - Pistol Wraith - I also quite like Blackbane's Ghost Raiders, but I'm well aware that they and their theme have no synergy with Skarre2. (I doubt I can afford to buy all three of the above warjacks, but they're the ones I'd most like to own someday.) To be honest, I'd actually like a ranged or semi-ranged Cryx army... unfortunately I've currently got nothing but melee models. Not many Black Industries list actually include colossals as they don't benefit from Carapace. Based on what you have and are interested in, I think the following should be quite ok: conflictchamber.com/#c4200O_-0U0Ikd1w1s1f1f1u0tf0Cryx Army - 50 / 50 points [Theme] Black Industries [Skarre 2] Skarre, Queen of the Broken Coast [+26] - Corruptor [14] - Deathjack [23] - Leviathan [16] - Nightwretch [0(7)] - Nightwretch [0(7)] - Seether [13] - The Withershadow Combine [9] Soul Trapper [1] Deathjack gets Death Ward (he's a beast) and the Seether gets Admonition (Admonition + Counter Charge shenanigans), Leviathan takes some random pot shots, using its focus whenever it wishes due to Future Sight. Corrupter is an ok gun platform that can heal Skarre and together with the Leviathan can make decent use out of Black Spot. The on-demand arc node makes it so the Nightwretches can be used more efficiently. Withershadow is always great with rerolls and you won't have to cut yourself too much for upkeeps. The Soul Trapper is nothing but an unused point, though he can sometimes give Souls to the WSC, which is nice. Note that an all melee Black Industries can also work reasonably well with Skarre 1, something like this: conflictchamber.com/#c4200O_-0U0F1w1e1e1u1u1h1h0t2n2oCryx Army - 50 / 50 points [Theme] Black Industries [Skarre 1] Pirate Queen Skarre [+28] - Deathjack [23] - Ripjaw [0(7)] - Ripjaw [0(7)] - Seether [13] - Seether [13] - Stalker [8] - Stalker [8] - The Withershadow Combine [9] Necrotech [2] Scrap Thrall (3) [2] You're fairly safe from shooting and you can be quite aggressive, so just feat when you can do the most damage (Stalkers threatening 13" at P+S 17 Blessed is quite scary) Withershadow provides the reroll again and also casts Ritual Sacrifice so Skarre has more focus. The solos are basically fodder for that spell, but the Necrotech can repair or make more Scrap Thralls in a pinch. Skarre 1 can also make a decent Dark Host list. You don't really have great targets for the feat, but Bane Warriors swinging at effective POW 18 Weapon Master can absolutely murder things, so you only need a few to arrive. Asphyxious 3 is decent in most themes, but probably best in Black Industries. Goreshade 1 can do BI well, but I tend to like him in Slaughterfleet and Goreshade 2 was born for Dark Host.
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Post by dragash on Aug 31, 2018 12:05:04 GMT
Not many Black Industries list actually include colossals as they don't benefit from Carapace. Based on what you have and are interested in, I think the following should be quite ok: conflictchamber.com/#c4200O_-0U0Ikd1w1s1f1f1u0tf0Cryx Army - 50 / 50 points [Theme] Black Industries [Skarre 2] Skarre, Queen of the Broken Coast [+26] - Corruptor [14] - Deathjack [23] - Leviathan [16] - Nightwretch [0(7)] - Nightwretch [0(7)] - Seether [13] - The Withershadow Combine [9] Soul Trapper [1] Deathjack gets Death Ward (he's a beast) and the Seether gets Admonition (Admonition + Counter Charge shenanigans), Leviathan takes some random pot shots, using its focus whenever it wishes due to Future Sight. Corrupter is an ok gun platform that can heal Skarre and together with the Leviathan can make decent use out of Black Spot. The on-demand arc node makes it so the Nightwretches can be used more efficiently. Withershadow is always great with rerolls and you won't have to cut yourself too much for upkeeps. The Soul Trapper is nothing but an unused point, though he can sometimes give Souls to the WSC, which is nice. Wow, thanks. That looks like a fun list. I've got a few questions if you wouldn't mind: 1) Would there be any value to having Malice in place of the Corruptor and Soul Trapper? (I ask simply because you mentioned the Soul Trapper being little more than an unused point.) 2) Any advice on playing this list into Cygnar or Legion? 3) Assuming I buy the stuff necessary for this list, would I be able to build any decent lists with Goreshade1, Goreshade2, Gaspy3 and/or Scaverous? Note that an all melee Black Industries can also work reasonably well with Skarre 1, something like this: conflictchamber.com/#c4200O_-0U0F1w1e1e1u1u1h1h0t2n2oCryx Army - 50 / 50 points [Theme] Black Industries [Skarre 1] Pirate Queen Skarre [+28] - Deathjack [23] - Ripjaw [0(7)] - Ripjaw [0(7)] - Seether [13] - Seether [13] - Stalker [8] - Stalker [8] - The Withershadow Combine [9] Necrotech [2] Scrap Thrall (3) [2] You're fairly safe from shooting and you can be quite aggressive, so just feat when you can do the most damage (Stalkers threatening 13" at P+S 17 Blessed is quite scary) Withershadow provides the reroll again and also casts Ritual Sacrifice so Skarre has more focus. The solos are basically fodder for that spell, but the Necrotech can repair or make more Scrap Thralls in a pinch. Skarre 1 can also make a decent Dark Host list. You don't really have great targets for the feat, but Bane Warriors swinging at effective POW 18 Weapon Master can absolutely murder things, so you only need a few to arrive. Asphyxious 3 is decent in most themes, but probably best in Black Industries. Goreshade 1 can do BI well, but I tend to like him in Slaughterfleet and Goreshade 2 was born for Dark Host. Thanks for this. However, I think I prefer the first list you suggested. Partially because I'm not a huge fan of playing all-melee lists and partially because I've found Skarre1 to be a little boring to play.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 31, 2018 12:32:45 GMT
I've got a few questions if you wouldn't mind: 1) Would there be any value to having Malice in place of the Corruptor and Soul Trapper? (I ask simply because you mentioned the Soul Trapper being little more than an unused point.) 2) Any advice on playing this list into Cygnar or Legion? 3) Assuming I buy the stuff necessary for this list, would I be able to build any decent lists with Goreshade1, Goreshade2, Gaspy3 and/or Scaverous? Of course I don't mind - Hmm, it's possible, though I don't see any exceptional synergy between Malice and Skarre, except the potential infinite drag loop *. I must say I haven't given Malice a lot of play, because while she has decent utility, it's still situational and she has only a single POW 16 melee weapon, while Skarre will already have trouble cracking armour. Seeing as you seem interested in playing Malice, I'd say give it a shot and see how it goes, but I think the Corruptor will be more generally useful.
- Basically, both those factions rely on getting a strong melee alpha or shooting you to bits. This list would be excellently equipped against both, between Carapace protecting you from all but the most powerful shooting (and DJ at ARM 25, choose column, should still be fine).
Your feat can easily protect you from melee attacks, so just get into melee as fast as possible while using your ranged elements to pick off support and/or soften up opposing heavies. When playing against infantry, Black Spot will be your friend as the Leviathan will get D3*2 shots and the Corruptor can get 1 (Distillation is the only one that can trigger Black Spot) + a Burster template. Don't underestimate the Nightwretches either with their AoE 3 POW 14 and you don't need to directly hit to trigger Black Spot. Note that the list is more combined arms and you are neither great at melee nor at range, just passable at both. Beware for lists that counter either one of them and do NOT lose Deathjack as he will have a huge target on his head and is 30% of your list. Oh, it's really easy to lose Skarre by accident as you'll constantly be cutting for upkeeps and the feat. Be careful to always block line of sight to her, especially against shooting lists and watch out for electroleaps. - Goreshade 1 really doesn't support ranged elements very well, though he does have some decent spells for Deathjack to cast and likes strong self-sufficient melee jacks such as Seethers.
Goreshade 2 basically synergizes the best with Banes and not at all with (heavy) jacks. If you want to play him, I would suggest getting 2 attachments for the Bane Warriors (and try to fill out your second unit to max) and go from there. Gaspy 3 has Calamity so should be ok, even if a bit sub-optimal. He can't take the Withershadow Combine though as he already has Vociferon attached. Scaverous would be ok, if a bit suboptimal. Deathjack can get Death Ward again and has great spells to cast. He also appreciates the WSC, but the rest wouldn't be that great.
* Black Spot attacks can't trigger additional Black Spot attacks, but the free attack from Drag can. So start by casting Black Spot on a unit of multi-wound infantry, shoot one with Malice, but don't kill it (the obvious tricky part), reel it in and now kill it with your free melee attack, which triggers an attack. Since your initials were ranged, you can trigger a ranged attack, starting the chain again.
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Post by dragash on Aug 31, 2018 14:18:13 GMT
Of course I don't mind - Hmm, it's possible, though I don't see any exceptional synergy between Malice and Skarre, except the potential infinite drag loop *. I must say I haven't given Malice a lot of play, because while she has decent utility, it's still situational and she has only a single POW 16 melee weapon, while Skarre will already have trouble cracking armour.
I'll admit to being a little confused about this. Doesn't the Corruptor also only have a single POW 16 melee weapon? Or is it just that its ranged weapon make up for it? Note that the list is more combined arms and you are neither great at melee nor at range, just passable at both. Beware for lists that counter either one of them and do NOT lose Deathjack as he will have a huge target on his head and is 30% of your list. Regarding Deathjack, I'll have Death Ward on him most of the time (I could also swap it for Admonition if I fear a melee assault on him). I can also give him +5 Def during my feat turn. Is there any other way I can protect him? Or should I try to find points for something that can repair him? Oh, it's really easy to lose Skarre by accident as you'll constantly be cutting for upkeeps and the feat. Be careful to always block line of sight to her, especially against shooting lists and watch out for electroleaps. Am I right in thinking that I should always cut to maintain upkeeps, but then use any spare Focus to heal her at the end of her activation (hopefully still leaving one or two on her for protection)? Goreshade 1 really doesn't support ranged elements very well, though he does have some decent spells for Deathjack to cast and likes strong self-sufficient melee jacks such as Seethers. Goreshade 2 basically synergizes the best with Banes and not at all with (heavy) jacks. If you want to play him, I would suggest getting 2 attachments for the Bane Warriors (and try to fill out your second unit to max) and go from there. Gaspy 3 has Calamity so should be ok, even if a bit sub-optimal. He can't take the Withershadow Combine though as he already has Vociferon attached. Scaverous would be ok, if a bit suboptimal. Deathjack can get Death Ward again and has great spells to cast. He also appreciates the WSC, but the rest wouldn't be that great. Okay, that's fine. I'll just focus on Skarre2 for now then. Oh, one very random question - is Eilish Garrity, the Occultist any good for Cryx/Skarre2? Anyway, thanks for all your help.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 31, 2018 14:22:58 GMT
As you say, the Corruptor has a better ranged weapon and offers quite some utility in general. Utility that Skarre likes. Like I said, I encourage you to try out Malice if you're up for it, all I'm saying is that I don't have enough experience to tell you one way or the other.
You got it right with Deathjack, I just wanted to stress it again, but you can't do much more than that indeed. Ideally you would use the feat/Admonition to protect him after an alpha because you really need multiple turns of output from him. Don't forget about Snacking.
You are right, cutting for 1 and spending a focus to heal is the same net result as spending a focus to upkeep, but doing the former is more versatile.
Eilish is definitely a good buy in general, but I find myself preferring Ragman with Skarre 2 because she doesn't have her own damage buff. Though I usually find him hard to use in a jack list except when I have a Kraken, so maybe you shouldn't put him in this particular list.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Aug 31, 2018 19:54:08 GMT
A while back (in MK2), I bought some Cryx models from ebay: Skarre1 Deathjack Seether Ripjaw 10 Bane Warriors 6 Bane Warriors 6 Mechanathralls Necrosurgeon and Stitch Thralls The Withershadow Combine Bane Lord Tartarus Skarlock Thrall Obviously it was originally designed to work with Skarre1, but the change to her feat has hurt it greatly. Anyway, I'm actually more interested in using Skarre2. And I was wondering if I can make any sort of viable Skarre2 list with the stuff I have above? So, could the above actually form the core of a reasonable Skarre2 list? Or would I basically have to purchase an entirely different army for her? So the models you have above are not super great for Skarre2, however the Dark Host Theme Force, which uses the Bane Models you have, is an extremely good list to pair with Skarre2. At the moment the two Theme Forces I would look into when considering Skarre2 are Black Industries & Slaughter Fleet Raiders. Skarre2’s big strength is that she probably runs the best Kraken in the faction. She makes it 15/21 and unchargable for a round which is extremely hard to remove, as well as letting it boost after seeing the result, and giving it bonus shots with the Unicorn cannon when it kills models she’s put Black Spot on. Skarre2’s big weakness though, is that she’s a Cryx caster with no way to buff damage output. Cryx as a faction is balanced around the ability to generate some absurd armor swings, making even the weakest troops hit massively hard, so as a result our base power tends to be a bit lower to start out with. Where every other Colossal, aside from the new Crucible Guard Vulcan, has base power 20+ Melee Attacks, the Cryx colossals are only power 19 base, and Skarre2 can’t help them with that. This is where the two Theme Forces come in. One of the Theme benefits of Slaughter Fleet is giving all your jacks Gang Fighter, which brings the Kraken up to Pow 21, and the crabjacks to a respectable 19 when they finally go in, and you gain access to Sharde Dirge Seers which allow the Ranged jacks to ignore many common anti shooting defenses. Additionally Slaughter Fleet has some sweet Ranged options that synergize great with Black Spot and the high armored models mean you can potentially pull some interesting tricks by killing friendly models with Soul Strike. Black Industries gives Skarre2 access to the upcoming Deneghra0, who will hopefully retain an Armor Debuff from her CID testing. While the Kraken would not gain Carapace from the Theme Heavies will, & I find the models available to BI, namely Black Ogrun Iron Mongers & the ability to take multiple units of Cephalyx Overlords, the +2 deployment benefit, & free models being granted by spending points on jacks makes Black Industries more compelling than Infernal Machines. Skarre2 also really wants a single Corruptor in her list since she has a nasty habit of cutting herself rather low, and the Corruptor is now the only model that can heal her, and the Corruptor definitely likes having Carapace more than Hyper-Aggressive.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Aug 31, 2018 20:03:37 GMT
As an aside, I don’t know how good it would be, but if you don’t wanna have to invest in another theme you could try playing Skarre2 in Dark Host with a heavy Focus on using the Desecrator. With Black Spot it’s possible to put out 2 Void Fields/Desecrator each turn. Allowing you to litter the board with no go zones for single wound living & construct models. Banes naturally hit extremely hard to help mitigate Skarre2’s weakness of not having an armor fixer. I don’t know how good or viable it would be, but it sounds interesting in theory. Something like:
Theme: Dark Host 2 / 2 Free Cards 50 / 50 Army
Skarre, Queen of the Broken Coast - WJ: +26 - Deathripper - PC: 6 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Desecrator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Desecrator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) Bane Lord Tartarus - PC: 0 Machine Wraith - PC: 0 Bane Warriors - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Bane Warrior Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 5 Bane Warriors - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Bane Warrior Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 5
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Post by gedditoffme on Sept 1, 2018 8:51:28 GMT
I think skarre2 has a lot of potential in Infernal machines. I don’t see her getting much out of other themes, and free pistol wraiths seem like a good benefit for her. Black spot and the feat would go great with her, and brute thralls would make good defence. Battlegroup could be good shooters, ideally kraken but could go leviathan or whatever.
I haven’t played her in mk3, but honestly I think the only reason to so is black spot.
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Post by dragash on Sept 1, 2018 11:00:01 GMT
As you say, the Corruptor has a better ranged weapon and offers quite some utility in general. Utility that Skarre likes. Like I said, I encourage you to try out Malice if you're up for it, all I'm saying is that I don't have enough experience to tell you one way or the other. You got it right with Deathjack, I just wanted to stress it again, but you can't do much more than that indeed. Ideally you would use the feat/Admonition to protect him after an alpha because you really need multiple turns of output from him. Don't forget about Snacking. You are right, cutting for 1 and spending a focus to heal is the same net result as spending a focus to upkeep, but doing the former is more versatile. Eilish is definitely a good buy in general, but I find myself preferring Ragman with Skarre 2 because she doesn't have her own damage buff. Though I usually find him hard to use in a jack list except when I have a Kraken, so maybe you shouldn't put him in this particular list. Good catch on Deathjack - I'd completely forgotten that he had Snacking. Don't want to forget about that in a game! Thanks for all your help. I haven’t played her in mk3, but honestly I think the only reason to so is black spot. What about Field Marshal [Future Sight]?
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Sept 2, 2018 0:05:09 GMT
I haven’t played her in mk3, but honestly I think the only reason to so is black spot. What about Field Marshal [Future Sight]? Field Marshal Future Sight is good, but it’s definitely not a good reason to play her over other options. The big selling points she has are Black Spot and the Feat. Those are the powerful effects that scream play me over other options.
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Zaku
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Post by Zaku on Sept 2, 2018 5:18:09 GMT
I am going to be trying out a few Skarre2 Scourge lists to try and see what I can get her to do in that theme. I am real interested seeing what you guys think about her, because I need a break from Deneghra1 in Scourge, and Skarre2 should give me some interesting matchups.
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