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Post by mcdermott on Aug 30, 2018 19:10:53 GMT
Something to consider: The effect and # of dice rolls all that rapid healing could have in a clock scenario?
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474 
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Post by chuggyg on Aug 30, 2018 19:16:46 GMT
There's no colossal or gargantuan in the game where being supported by the caster or army isn't part of the equation. If your caster isn't supporting a model that is 1/3 of your army, you're bringing the wrong caster. I suppose you can argue the blightbringer as an exception, since he's a support model himself, but the rest of them are really lackluster in a vacuum (whereas the blightbringer is lackluster without the right army around it). I will concede that the army support for a storm raptor is basically non-existent, which I think is the real problem with it. With the casters that can support a Raptor properly (Kromac2, Tanith, Kaya3 are the main ones), its damage output in melee gets pretty high pretty quickly. Being that its melee output is a secondary function, I really don't think there's an issue with it in that regard. A bump in defensive stats (Def, Arm, or Boxes) and a bit more Fury efficiency is really all it needs. I mean, I will concede the point about the caster needing to be factored in. That being said, how many other gargs or colossals are that pillow fisted. Not many, if any. When it comes down to it, my other big issue with the bird is his survivability. He is 37 points (one of the more expensive colossals after CID began) is only 12/18 with 50 boxes. That's extremely squishy. I hope his survivability increases or points reduce dramatically. If one of those things happens I feel pretty good with him. That being said, I will be testing him to see how he plays.
He absolutely needs a bump in defensive stats/abilities. I think the problem when looking at the Storm Raptor's damage output is that it has flight and an extra 2-3 inches of speed on the other huge jacks/beasts. It innately threats a 12" bubble around itself with the melee, and a 19" threat on the gun. They have to offset that somehow. It's certainly not working at its points value, but adding points of strength just doesn't feel like the right way to go. I'd really like them to explore adding Dual Attack |
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Post by bloodhawk on Aug 30, 2018 20:05:11 GMT
I mean, I will concede the point about the caster needing to be factored in. That being said, how many other gargs or colossals are that pillow fisted. Not many, if any. When it comes down to it, my other big issue with the bird is his survivability. He is 37 points (one of the more expensive colossals after CID began) is only 12/18 with 50 boxes. That's extremely squishy. I hope his survivability increases or points reduce dramatically. If one of those things happens I feel pretty good with him. That being said, I will be testing him to see how he plays.
He absolutely needs a bump in defensive stats/abilities. I think the problem when looking at the Storm Raptor's damage output is that it has flight and an extra 2-3 inches of speed on the other huge jacks/beasts. It innately threats a 12" bubble around itself with the melee, and a 19" threat on the gun. They have to offset that somehow. It's certainly not working at its points value, but adding points of strength just doesn't feel like the right way to go. I'd really like them to explore adding Dual Attack
I actually really like the dual attack idea. And agreed about the speed. I am not saying he needs to do it all, but at 37 points he should be markedly better than a 33 or 34 point colossal, but he clearly isn't right now.
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envoy
Read Page 5
Posts: 21
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Post by envoy on Aug 30, 2018 21:02:56 GMT
I've seen some discussion online about how much Iona benefits Tharn vs. everything else. Some people are for it, some against. I am in the latter camp. I realize that balance is a concern, and that in an ever-burgeoning game it's easier for PP to "limit the field" (either explicitly or implicitly) than to keep everything open-ended. However, a major part of the appeal of this game for me is the dynamic of swapping casters to make a list or theme play completely differently. Not that I think every caster should be viable for every theme, but I would like to see every caster have at least two or three that it can be comfortable in. Yeah, Bradigus and Cyrenia from PoM bug me too, but even he COULD eventually have game in Secret Masters, and she can always use her Battle Plans on herself to good effect. Right now, Iona is Miss Devourer's Host, with no feat or Elite Cadre in any other theme.
Do you think this is okay? If you would change it, how would you?
My only clever idea so far? Exchange "Elite Cadre: Tharn" for "Field Marshall: Tharn." Yeah, that's fair and balanced.
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Post by mcdermott on Aug 30, 2018 21:24:13 GMT
I love it, but i love themes in general. You can only make so many general list casters before they get repetitive and one sticks out as best.
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Post by bloodhawk on Aug 30, 2018 22:24:34 GMT
While I hate it in theory, in practice I sort of like the results. There is no way Iona would be half as solid as she is if she was available to the whole faction, the same with Bradigus. With this in mind, I would rather have a powerful caster in his / her niche than a washed out caster who can play in everything. They have stated that Iona has to be tharn only on her feat because she would be OP with wolves of orboros.
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Post by streetpizza on Aug 30, 2018 23:20:37 GMT
While I hate it in theory, in practice I sort of like the results. There is no way Iona would be half as solid as she is if she was available to the whole faction, the same with Bradigus. With this in mind, I would rather have a powerful caster in his / her niche than a washed out caster who can play in everything. They have stated that Iona has to be tharn only on her feat because she would be OP with wolves of orboros. Which I found to be the bullshittiest of bullshit answers. Will said it was because the wolves of Oboros would be too numerous and take the buff too well. Really!? So I guess FA:U Knights exemplar with their higher armor, S&P mini feat, better delivery casters, better caster buffs, higher power and better caster independant support are just breaking the bank at P+S11 WM then? Or skorne swordsmen under Rasheth are just setting the world on fire and I'm not noticing. Sometimes those guys need pull their head out of their own sphincters to see the daylight. Hell just within the theme she's in she drives ravagers up to P+S 18 charges, bloodtrackers to P+S 14 vs prey with both thrown spears and charges, wolf riders up to P+S 12 WM charges. Its not like she's limited where she is. Long story short, its a "we're too lazy to try and balance across themes and while we made exception with the casters released for other factions before this CID this is where we're drawing the line," response. |
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Post by josephkerr on Aug 30, 2018 23:41:43 GMT
While I hate it in theory, in practice I sort of like the results. There is no way Iona would be half as solid as she is if she was available to the whole faction, the same with Bradigus. With this in mind, I would rather have a powerful caster in his / her niche than a washed out caster who can play in everything. They have stated that Iona has to be tharn only on her feat because she would be OP with wolves of orboros. Long story short, its a "we're too lazy to try and balance across themes and while we made exception with the casters released for other factions before this CID this is where we're drawing the line," response. What do you mean by this? Khador, Protectorate, and Legion all introduced new casters requiring model types to unlock their kit. Whats wrong with that in Circle? |
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envoy
Read Page 5
Posts: 21
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Post by envoy on Aug 31, 2018 0:49:36 GMT
Leaving the personal remarks behind, hopefully, I would be happier if they tweaked it so that she was maybe more limited, yet still functional outside her "chosen" theme. Sorscha3, Anamag, and Cyrenia all have type-specific abilities, but they all work with their own personal kit as well. Sorscha is tough enough to get in a bit and use Flank. Anamag can kill a bit to use her free spell. Cyrenia, like I said, has uses for her own Battle Plans. So while limited, they aren't completely lost outside their "home" theme.
With Iona, on the other hand, I'll be disappointed if she makes it out the gate with something as big as her Feat being type-exclusive.
Besides, like streetpizza has already said, Tharn already are nuts under her feat (Bloodtrackers especially!). I would be surprised if it stays as it is.
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Post by onijet01 on Aug 31, 2018 0:55:20 GMT
Okay so i have a few questions based on the discussions her as i Dont play Circle often and i DONT see a fix needed for some models.
Stormraptor- lots of players arw saying it needs to drop in points or get more damage on its melee.
Personally i do not se why. The faction has many melee or str buffs, built in free charging, accuracy duffs and defence debuffs.
To my understanding no colossal should be able to break another colosson one turn outside synergy casters and if you really want pure melee damage just take the construct warbeast instead.
The new caster- is the feat really an issue calling out a single type of model when it also lets you reroll attack rolls? Hell i would be tickled if Damiano had that feat for steelheads.
Really my only two questions and im sure there will be articles explaining why stormraptor and the warlock need changes but well see
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Post by mindwormjim on Aug 31, 2018 1:46:55 GMT
Stormraptor- lots of players arw saying it needs to drop in points or get more damage on its melee. Personally i do not se why. The faction has many melee or str buffs, built in free charging, accuracy duffs and defence debuffs. To my understanding no colossal should be able to break another colosson one turn outside synergy casters and if you really want pure melee damage just take the construct warbeast instead. I won't go into too much detail of the math but it takes very little effort for other colossals and gargantuans to kill the Storm Raptor. For the most part a +2 to hit is all they need. In particular, the Judicator has about a 50% chance of killing the Raptor in a single activation with no buffs of any kind. Conversely, even with Primal and a free charge the Storm Raptor only has about a 33% chance of killing the Judicator (or any similar huge-based model). Personally, I'm willing to accept that the Storm Raptor is weaker and less durable than other colossals and gargantuans in melee because SPD 7 is a big deal. I just wish it had a stronger shooting presence. My experiences has been that even though Lightning Generator is cool, two POW 14's just isn't enough to warrant the model's price tag. *I have not played with the CID version of the model yet, so the quality-of-life changes it received may change my mind. However, just looking at it on paper I am not confident. |
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Post by streetpizza on Aug 31, 2018 2:06:45 GMT
Long story short, its a "we're too lazy to try and balance across themes and while we made exception with the casters released for other factions before this CID this is where we're drawing the line," response. What do you mean by this? Khador, Protectorate, and Legion all introduced new casters requiring model types to unlock their kit. Whats wrong with that in Circle? Each one of those casters have a piece of their kit that doesn't work out of their theme. For Iona its her entire feat. Anamag has a cute interaction with casting a free spell but is other wise open with the rest of her kit. With S3 its just the field marshal. Cyrenia is special because she started out with the same problem as Iona but the community had to tell PP how dumb that was and they relented. Again the community is telling them how dumb it is that the feat is tag typed. Difference being that this time they're pulling out one of the most maligned units in the game for being under powerd as the reason that the feat would be broken if they unleashed it. I'm fine with being told "because we don't want to" but I'm not okay with bullshit. |
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Post by onijet01 on Aug 31, 2018 2:09:41 GMT
What do you mean by this? Khador, Protectorate, and Legion all introduced new casters requiring model types to unlock their kit. Whats wrong with that in Circle? Each one of those casters have a piece of their kit that doesn't work out of their theme. For Iona its her entire feat. Anamag has a cute interaction with casting a free spell but is other wise open with the rest of her kit. With S3 its just the field marshal. Cyrenia is special because she started out with the same problem as Iona but the community had to tell PP how dumb that was and they relented. Again the community is telling them how dumb it is that the feat is tag typed. Difference being that this time their pulling out one of the most maligned units in the game for being under powerd as the reason that the feat would be broken if they unleashed it. I'm fine with being told "because we don't want to" but I'm not okay with bullshit. Thats cool and i do feel pow 14 is really low for a main gun. Infact to my mind i can not think of any other huge base with as low a main gun. |
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Aug 31, 2018 8:37:11 GMT
More damning than the low POW (which is pretty damning itself) is the low volume of fire for something that is essentially a ranged piece.
You look at Judi, and he brings 4 guns, 2 of which are scary sprays. Stormwall brings 2d3 nipple cannon shots plus the 2 big guns plus the pod for further anti-infantry shenanigans. Both of these jacks are stronger in melee than the raptor, and cheaper, and much more survivable.
Simply put, the raptor doesn’t measure up to its task or it’s competition
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Post by slaughtersun on Aug 31, 2018 9:36:54 GMT
Each one of those casters have a piece of their kit that doesn't work out of their theme. For Iona its her entire feat. Anamag has a cute interaction with casting a free spell but is other wise open with the rest of her kit. With S3 its just the field marshal. Cyrenia is special because she started out with the same problem as Iona but the community had to tell PP how dumb that was and they relented. Again the community is telling them how dumb it is that the feat is tag typed. Difference being that this time their pulling out one of the most maligned units in the game for being under powerd as the reason that the feat would be broken if they unleashed it. I'm fine with being told "because we don't want to" but I'm not okay with bullshit. Thats cool and i do feel pow 14 is really low for a main gun. Infact to my mind i can not think of any other huge base with as low a main gun. Let me present to you the Archangel then... |
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