Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Jul 24, 2018 14:04:42 GMT
I'm hoping to get some ideas and help on some competitive list ideas to get me to expand from my current rut. I've been running Skarre1 Dark Host and Denny1 Satyxis with very good success, but I have been getting a little tired of the lists. The problem I have is that I've really been struggling to figure out new lists to play that I feel are as strong. I have been avoiding Slayer-spam by the way, I don't really want to play it, but I would be open to other ideas. I really am trying to see if I can make some lesser used casters shine as well, but maybe I lack the imagination to figure them out. Hopefully this thread can start a discussion on list building in general.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
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Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jul 24, 2018 15:53:52 GMT
Denny2, WSC, DJ, Inflictor, ILO + Seether (x2 if you're feeling fancy), flavour to taste... that's my take on BI at the moment, since I, like you, don't want to go the Gaspy3 Slayer-spam route (I'm meh on owning so many Slayer chassis, much less actual Slayers and overall I just don't like Gaspy3...!).
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Jul 24, 2018 18:06:56 GMT
germanicus I actually had a Denny2 list with Slayers, albeit not 9, I need to find my list and add it as an edit, but it just seemed to fall short a lot. Could you share how you run yours, what kinds of lists you drop it into? This was the Denny2 list I was using the most; Denegrah2 industries Theme: Black Industries 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Wraith Witch Deneghra - WJ: +28 - The Withershadow Combine - Maelovus, Admonia & Tremulus: 9 - Nightmare - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Slayer - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Slayer - PC: 10 - Slayer - PC: 10 - Nightwretch - PC: 0 - Nightwretch - PC: 0 Warwitch Siren - PC: 4 Warwitch Siren - PC: 4 Machine Wraith - PC: 2 Iron Lich Overseer - PC: 5 - Seether - PC: 13 Iron Lich Overseer - PC: 5 - Seether - PC: 13
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germanicus
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Post by germanicus on Jul 25, 2018 3:16:32 GMT
In all honesty, I'm starting out in Cryx (not new to the game though), so I'm not entirely certain how the list would run. Spitballing, though, ILO + Seethers can work (with a chicken in tow) on a flank as expected, and with Breath Stealer when required helps to lock down one pivotal corner of the board, while battlegroup works on the rest. I'm thinking of playing her relatively aggressively to take advantage of Shadowstep + Dark Banishment and it will be a scalpelling/piecemeal breakdown sort of plan. Haven't the faintest idea whether this is a good idea or not as 7 Focus doesn't seem enough to do all I want her to do in any given turn, but hey, that's a part of the game. Not quite sure if I want to sprinkle in some Overlords. EDIT: But definitely, Damnation is her biggest spell and needs to be leveraged as much as possible, so the second chicken needs to be played on a near flank which may limit how far the Seether can go... :/
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Jul 25, 2018 3:22:34 GMT
So competitive list ideas that are different I would suggest looking at Ghost Fleet, Dark Host, Slaughter Fleet, & Black Industries. If you’re looking to be competitive I would avoid Infernal Machines until the release of Warwitch Initiate Deneghra since that Theme is rather lacking, and even then, I’m not sure how many Casters will actually thrive there outside of Terminus & Goreshade2. You could try just shaking up your Scourge of the Broken Coast caster by playing Satyxis with Asphyxious1, Coven, or Skarre3 but I imagine you won’t find the differences in caster/battlegroup all that exciting if you’re already bored of the Deneghra1 version. I’ve found Scourge to be a very linear Theme in list building, and the Casters don’t change up the playstyle all that much.
Now starting with Dark Host I assume the Skarre1 list you’ve been playing is the Double Wraith Engine version from your battle report thread. There’s a couple DH builds that play differently from the Skarre1 engine build, most notably Goreshade3, Terminus, Asphyxious2, & Skarre3.
Terminus is going to have a similar build as Skarre1 playing small based Banes, 1-2 Wraith Engines, & Darragh with his battlegroup being Barathrum + 2 Deathrippers. While the build is similar, the playstyle is very different. With Skarre1 you’re using your caster to dial your troops up to obscene levels, while with Terminus the Banes are all meant to deliver Terminus himself. While Skarre tends to be fragile & easily killed if she steps out of position, Terminus becomes an unkillable Monster that bullies the table late game once the Banes take care of all the heavy hitters your opponent’s brought.
The second Dark Host alternate is Skarre3. Skarre3 is one of the few Casters who probably doesn’t actually want a Wraith Engine in Dark Host. What Skarre3 wants to do is stack Darragh & Dash to make Banes as fast as Satyxis. Fun tech for Skarre3 in DH is to use your mercenary unit slot on Cephalyx Overlords. The Overlords count towards free points since they’re Cryx Units & it gives Skarre a Unit for reinforcements living.
Asphyxious2 brings massive anti shooting to Dark Host thanks to his ability to Cloud Wall. Again he wants to focus on more of the small based units since he can’t Feat back Bane Riders, but he doesn’t super need the Wraith Engine since he brings his own shooting denial.
The final Dark Host caster I’d consider is Goreshade3. Goreshade3 is probably the best caster at running Bane Riders thanks to Mockery of Life. It’s very hard to get good use out of Bane Riders in today’s meta, but Goteshade3 does a very good job at it. The trick is to use them in waves. Send 2-3 Riders in at a time and keep the remaining hidden back behind terrain, forests & clouds preferably, & out of command if needed. After your opponent kills the Riders you sent into their lines, Vengence the remaining Riders forwards through the terrain they were hiding behind so they now have LoS to charge, activate Goreshade & Mockery back all the Riders that died behind the terrain, & charge with the Riders that his the previous turn while walking the newly reanimated Riders into position to repeat the process next turn.
When it comes to Ghost Fleet the only Casters I’d really consider looking at if you want to be competitive are Asphyxious1 & Terminus. Asphyxious1 Ghost Fleet is all about Assassination. Take as many Ghost Shot Guns as you can & threaten to assassinate the enemy caster the second they step into the killbox. The Terminus Ghost Fleet plan is basically the same as the Terminus Dark Host plan with the difference being Ghost Fleet has an insanely easier time keeping Terminus alive vs guns thanks to Rengrave making Terminus’s effective Sac pawn bubble ludicrous, but a much harder time killing the heavier Melee targets that threaten Terminus.
For Black Industries there’s a ton of options that aren’t Slayer spam, the Casters I’d look to being any of the 3 Skarre, Deneghra2, Aiakos2, Scaverous & Mortenebra2. IMO one of the biggest reasons to play in Black Industries is access to Deathjack. The only other theme that can take Deathjack is Infernal Machines, which I don’t like competitively at the moment. Deneghra2 I would play primarily Slayers, but I would also make sure to grab Deathjack. If you’re not bringing Deathjack with her don’t play her in BI. Deathjack is the reason to run her in that theme over playing her in something like Dark Host instead.
Scaverous is another caster where the primary reason to play him in BI is access to Deathjack & Overlords. His Feat gives Cephalyx Overlords Boosted Sprays that ignore LoS, and Deathjack is a monster when he gets Death Ward & can cast Telekenesis. Scaverous BI also gets a lot better once Deneghra0 comes out since she’ll bring an Armor debuff that doesn’t drain Scaverous’s Focus, something he sorely wants.
Mortenebra2’s big draw is once again access to Deathjack. The important interaction many people miss is the wording on Locomotion. Locomotion allows you to move a jack once per ACTIVATION, meaning both Mortenebra2 & Deathjack can Locomotion the same jack for an effective +6 speed. Game plan is to use her massive threat range buffs to apply Stalkers/Scavengers/Heavies to their caster until they’re dead. Ending their caster’s activation within 19” of any Stalker is potentially lethal.
Aiakos2 like Mortenebra2 has massive Threat range increasing potential, but his threat increase is tied to charges & his Feat. What Aiakos brings is easy access to Knockdown thanks to White Squall. White Squall is an absurdly powerful spell with so many potential applications it’s not even funny. While it’s tempting to try and play Aiakos2 as a control caster due to White Squall & Stranglehold, he really doesn’t have the focus to be spamming & upkeepimg his spells. Like Mortenebra2 the game plan is Assassination, clear a path & bullet a jack into the enemy caster after knocking them down with White Squall.
Skarre1 in BI is all about the Chicken Farm. Spend all her jack points on Stalkers, then take Aiakos1 and give him a bunch more Stalkers. Then spend your free cards on Ripjaws & Scavengers. The. Spend your remaining points on Mechanics, Warwitch Sirens, and more Stalkers. Murder things with Pow 17 Stalkers.
Skarre2 in BI is super interesting and only gets even more interesting once Deneghra0 releases and gives Skarre2 access to an Armor Debuff. The big thing Skarre2 does is she easily runs the best Kraken. Stacking her Feat & Death Ward the Kraken is 15/21, immune to charges, and you choose the column for damage. Add Wrong Eye for Star-Crossed and you have an almost impossible to remove Colossal that gets to do an insane amount of work thanks to Black Spot nonsense & Field Marshal: Future Sight.
Skarre3’s big draw to Black Industries is the ability to stack the Carapace benefit with Deceleration to give Cryx Heavies +6 Armor vs Guns. Mulch Infantry with Cephalyx that you get to revive with your reinforcements living & shoot down Heavies with Leviathans they get Boosted hit rolls thanks to Guided Fire. This is another list that gets better when Deneghra0 comes along to provide a ranged damage buff for Skarre3, because right now it’s heavily geared towards using Skarre’s Shadow Fire Shots & Guided Fire to go for Assassinations.
Slaughter Fleet currently feels like the Wild West of Theme Forces. This theme is amazing, and definitely competitive, but I’m completely stumped when it comes to building a list for it. There’s just so many options & so many Casters that benefit from the tools in the theme that I really can’t say who runs it best. My favorite Casters so far have been Skarre3, Asphyxious2, & Agathia, but I’ve been playing infantry focused builds around Marauders, Bloodgorgers. & Smog Belchers. I haven’t really played any Warjack focused SFR builds & have no idea who would run them best, though I’m completely convinced the Scavenger is the single best jack you can take in the Theme. Scavengers with Gang Fighter are just so good, and I take 2-3 in almost every Slaughter Fleet list.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 25, 2018 7:24:23 GMT
I think Deller offers a great rundown of things, though I would like to add some things. I would also recommend giving Skarre 1 a whirl in Black Industries. It's the version I'm playing at the moment and like it a lot, though I play Kharybdis on Aiakos and include 2 Slayers so I still have some punch left after the feat. I might downgrade the Slayers to more Stalkers once I can include Denny 0. Coven is also still a decent contender for running Dark Host with Bane Riders. Their feat still near-guarantees the alpha and they have a good toolkit to have in a tournament pairing, such as Stygian Abyss against opposing battle engines. When playing Asphyxious 3 in BI, you don't have to play the full Slayer spam. Taking a more healthy mix of Seethers/Inflictors/Slayers still gets you 6-7 (depending on if you take DJ or not) heavies + Cankerworm and leaves you with 8 points for support. This list punches harder and offers more utility. I also main Terminus DH at the moment and I don't take Darragh, seeing as he pays for a min unit of Bane Knights. I recommend going min units all around to mitigate the effects of things like Enfeeble and Rebuke. I don't have Barathrum in the battle group as I think Stalkers offer more needed utility, but your mileage may vary. Deller, have you considered Skarre 2 in Slaughterfleet? She still runs a mean Kraken and Gang Fighter fixes its biggest weaknesses (pillow fisted + lackluster MAT) while Carapace from BI doesn't really add much anyway. She synergizes well with the units in the theme as well, with Deathward being an option on Bloodgorgers and Black Spot helping out Marauders and Smog Belchers. The Belchers can also protect her with some clouds where she is often hard to protect in other lists and the Marauders can swarm around the Kraken to up his effective defense. Access to Misery Cages, Ragman and the Blood Priestess is also not bad.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Jul 25, 2018 8:26:52 GMT
I agree the Carapace benefit doesn’t do much for Skarre2. The reason I go with BI is the free cards, and soon access to Deneghra0 which is going to be a massive game changer for Skarre2. The second you take a Kraken + Deathripper in Slaughter Fleet you’ve already lost the 3rd free card, where in Black Industries taking a Kraken gets you a free Nightwretch. None of the free options in Slaughter Fleet are as good for Skarre2 as free Arc Nodes are. While Cages & the Blood Priestess are nice, I did not find I need them, and they’re more of a luxury. Free upkeep’s are nice, but I can cut to upkeep & bring a Corruptor to heal. Sucker! is nice, but I didn’t find myself getting shot very frequently since in both SFR & BI Skarre2 tended to be one of the only small based models in the list & had a plethora of medium+ bases to hide behind. While the Cages were great I did find myself missing the Siren’s ability to shake disruption since disruption super sucks when you only have a handful of quality Heavies. If I were going to try a Skarre2 Kraken list in a different theme, I’d probably be more inclined to take her in Scourge over Slaughter Fleet. I’d still get the Cages, but I’d also get access to Raider Capitans so I can make Skarre2 Knockdown immune. I’d also get to add more Feedback models to the list & make the Backlash Assassination a very real threat. Also Satyxis Raiders under Star-Crossed make people tear their hair out.
As for Coven, I’ve vastly preferred them in Scourge over any other theme. The Dodgeball is hilarious. I need to get a Coven painted in Globo Gym colors with big red Egregore.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 25, 2018 8:55:41 GMT
Yeah, Skarre 2 gets something out of most of the themes you mentioned. BI and Scourge might support her better, but add less to the Kraken, while SFR dials up the Kraken to 11. After taking Kraken, 2 Deathrippers and Ragman, you still have enough left to take 40 points of units and get 2 options. It depends on your preferences. When only playing the Kraken, you don't even need the Siren anyway.
Now I want to play Coven in Scourge... Though, doesn't it struggle with damage in general?
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
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Post by germanicus on Jul 25, 2018 9:20:34 GMT
Yeah, Skarre 2 gets something out of most of the themes you mentioned. BI and Scourge might support her better, but addless to the Kraken, while SFR dials up the Kraken to 11. After taking Kraken, 2 Deathrippers and Ragman, you still have enough left to take 40 points of units and get 2 options. It depends on your preferences. When only playing the Kraken, you don't even need the Siren anyway. Now I want to play Coven in Scourge... Though, doesn't it struggle with damage in general? As thematic as it is, Skarre2 Scourge is one of the combinations that doesn't strike me as particularly effective 'cos she doesn't give them an ARM debuff to chomp down with (though the Backlash/Feedback doubling up can apply quite a lot of pressure against WMH, but the same goes for Skarre1, who can feat on some of the girls for some good damage swing). Being a Cryx n00b, though, I'm sticking with Parasite casters for now until I get some solid game time and develope the tactical nous to play into ARM/box skew. Skarre2 SFR is an interesting idea, think you could get pretty good work out of the Bloodgorgers/Marauders.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 25, 2018 10:07:25 GMT
As thematic as it is, Skarre2 Scourge is one of the combinations that doesn't strike me as particularly effective 'cos she doesn't give them an ARM debuff to chomp down with (though the Backlash/Feedback doubling up can apply quite a lot of pressure against WMH, but the same goes for Skarre1, who can feat on some of the girls for some good damage swing). Being a Cryx n00b, though, I'm sticking with Parasite casters for now until I get some solid game time and develope the tactical nous to play into ARM/box skew. Skarre2 SFR is an interesting idea, think you could get pretty good work out of the Bloodgorgers/Marauders. Yeah, in Scourge the Kraken would basically do all the heavy lifting (sometimes literally), but I find that even it, without a damage buff, doesn't do enough to be the entirety of the damage output of a list. The SFR list does work quite well, although it "suffers" from the same weakness as every SFR list: having to choose which of all the cool units you actually take. There are arguments for basically all the medium bases and since you want a Kraken + support, points can be quite tight.
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Growl
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Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Jul 25, 2018 22:01:11 GMT
Really great ideas! I’m not trying to be difficult, but I’m still having a hard time figuring out how some of these other list ideas would fair against my most recent opponents, and yes I have been delinquent in posting up reports... I’ve been facing Skorne with all the statue guys and Zaal2 with his ARM feat, battle engine Xerxis with double engines, tiberion, Sentry, Gladiator, Archidon and some krea, convergence with Locke and loads of jacks, and Orion with a colossal and electric jacks, Cygnar with Sloan with a hurricane and hunters, and Krae with a bunch of jacks.
My current lists deal with these pretty well, though the double turtle is really hard for me, but I can’t wrap my head around how some of these other list ideas can contend? Like I would love to get scaverous to work, but I think he gets eaten or shot up. Denny2 though I think she is good, I don’t see her threatening some of these lists enough. Can you guys relate any experiences from games you’ve had?
Maybe I need to look at Skarre2 more?
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Jul 26, 2018 6:53:27 GMT
So Scaverous is a Control/Assassination caster that doesn’t play fair. His bread & butter is Telekenesis abuse. Telekenesis is one of the best spells in the game, possibly the best. You can use it to get extra threat range. You can use it to gain LoS by hiding behind a forest or cloud then TKing your model into the LoS blocker to see past it. You can use it to gain +2 to hit by turning an enemy completely around. You can deny charges by turning an enemy completely around since they don’t have LoS to anything of yours, and since you can move them 2” backwards they lose another 2” of threat. You can use it to clear zones without killing models. You can use it to move an opponent’s model to set up the perfect Spray, AoE, or power attack. You can use it to unjam your model & avoid free strikes. Telekenesis has endless uses.
If you’re super worried about getting shot up, the best thing to do is trade some offense for defense by swapping themes. I personally prefer Scaverous in Black Industries, because Deathjack gives you more focus and more casts of Telekenesis, but he is more vulnerable in that theme. However we have three themes with great defensive benefits for Warcasters, Dark Host, Scourge of the Broken Coast, and Slaughter Fleet. When playing in Dark Host Scaverous puts the two theme clouds next to each other and plants himself behind them out of sight. That plus the armor buff from the Wraith Engine is usually enough to keep him alive. In Scourge & SFR Scaverous gets the Blood Priestess. I find Sucker! is an extremely effective deterrent. Most people don’t bother going for Ranged assassinations against you if you have 3-5 bodies around you. Slaughter Fleet also adds the additional layers of Cloud defense with the Dirge Seers & Smog Belchers (using Telekenesis to clump up your opponent’s unit & using Smogs to deny them runs/charges is hilarious) to block off LoS.
A lot of people like Croe’s Cutthroats with Scaverous since Telekenesis means triggering Backstab is super easy. Personally I’m not as sold on them since even with Backstab, they’re only Pow 10s. Until Deneghra0 comes out to bring them an Armor Debuff that doesn’t cost Scaverous half his focus, I’ve found they struggle to do much outside of being dedicated assassins.
Lastly Scaverous has a ton of Soul Collection methods. He gets the souls of enemies that die in his Feast of Worms Aura, enemies killed by his soul Harvester, enemies killed by Erebus, and enemies that dies within 2” of him. Knowledge of the Damned is an amazing ability you can use your souls on. Assume you’ll get 0 souls every game. Be happy when that doesn’t happen. If your Scaverous list relies on him getting souls to cast more spells or reroll with Knowledge, it’s a bad list. There’s plenty of lists that either deny soul collection, or just don’t run any souls to collect, and Scaverous doesn’t have any method of collecting souls aside from killing enemies. Assume your opponent won’t bring you any souls, be happy when they do.
I’m mostly playing Scourge & SFR these days, though I did play a lot of Deneghra2 BI when her new rules dropped. I think she does fine into Skorne & Locke. Her Feat lets her trade profitably with Skorne Heavies & Double Turtles, and into Immortals she keeps casting Breath Stealer on them & laughing as they become speed 2 with a 4” base run speed that goes to 6” near an Ancestral Guardian. Then when the lines do finally get close she Hellmouth’s them to death denying souls, or corrodes them with Venoms on Zaal’s Feat Turn. But yea, as long as you don’t trigger vengence Immortals with the Ancestral buff & Breath Stealer threaten 9” Charging. Their run to engage threat is 8”. Breath Stealer is Range 10. Immortals can’t touch Deneghra2’s army until you allow them to. I don’t have too much experience into CoC Locke, but I played a few games into her back during week 1 of the Crucible Guard CID when she was super busted, and Deneghra2 didn’t completely fold, so I assume she has game into her now. The only Cygnar I’ve played Deneghra2 into was Haley3 & Nemo3. I haven’t seen Krae vs Deneghra2 on the table, but in theory Deneghra2 should be favored into that off the back of the Feat. I haven’t played Deneghra2 into Sloan, but I’ve played her into Caine3 and those games came down to can Caine kill Deneghra because he’s never chewing through Deathjack & all the Slayers. I’d assume it plays similarly into Sloan where you’re basically just trying not to get assassinated as Carapace’d Heavies run the table.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 26, 2018 6:58:34 GMT
Really great ideas! I’m not trying to be difficult, but I’m still having a hard time figuring out how some of these other list ideas would fair against my most recent opponents, and yes I have been delinquent in posting up reports... I’ve been facing Skorne with all the statue guys and Zaal2 with his ARM feat, battle engine Xerxis with double engines, tiberion, Sentry, Gladiator, Archidon and some krea, convergence with Locke and loads of jacks, and Orion with a colossal and electric jacks, Cygnar with Sloan with a hurricane and hunters, and Krae with a bunch of jacks. My current lists deal with these pretty well, though the double turtle is really hard for me, but I can’t wrap my head around how some of these other list ideas can contend? Like I would love to get scaverous to work, but I think he gets eaten or shot up. Denny2 though I think she is good, I don’t see her threatening some of these lists enough. Can you guys relate any experiences from games you’ve had? Maybe I need to look at Skarre2 more? Well, it also depends on how competitive you want to be compared to how much you're looking for something "fun" and different. Asphyxious 2 is a decent drop into most of those, as he brings plenty of Banes to give Sloan trouble and his feat can still delete something against the other lists. Skarre 2 is a middle of the pack caster, but her Kraken, with the help of Black Spot, blends infantry and in SFR, with Ragman, it mauls heavies as well (starts at POW 23 and if you could Black Spot a nearby unit to help it with corpses and put your triggered attacks into the heavy at every increasing POW). I personally think she's a lot of fun, but she doesn't offer enough to a competitive pairing to come out much. If you want to play her though, she has game into most of those except Sloan I think. Denny 2 is good, but I currently don't like her much in the current meta. There are way too many counters to her feat and then her jacks are just regular, fragile Cryx jacks. She has no staying power at all, at least in BI, though I know that some people like to play her in DH. Terminus with as many Banes as you can fit can out-attrition a lot of those lists, though double derp turtle might be difficult because of Reposition. Ghost Fleet will have trouble cracking armour, but most of those lists will have trouble chewing through all those recurring models. If all else fails, you can still assassinate. Honestly, I would recommend just experimenting a bit and see what's fun/good for you. When you only stick to the tried and true, the game can sometimes start feeling stale and there's no fun in that. There's no shame in losing just because you want to try some janky shit sometimes, for science!
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Growl
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Post by Growl on Jul 26, 2018 12:11:25 GMT
Deller you're like a WMH Cryx sage! Thanks for the insights! Gamingdevil likewise your take on lists and playing are spot on! I think because I am trying to get reps in for a tournament that's coming up soon, I am so focused on competition and winning that experimenting right now just feels too hard. I guess I've already been playing my current lists for a while now, that they just feel a little stale, but they are serving their purpose. After this tournament, I think I will be in a better spot mentally to mix things up and take some lumps if need be while I'm trying out something new.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Jul 27, 2018 1:11:08 GMT
Deller you're like a WMH Cryx sage! Thanks for the insights! Gamingdevil likewise your take on lists and playing are spot on! I think because I am trying to get reps in for a tournament that's coming up soon, I am so focused on competition and winning that experimenting right now just feels too hard. I guess I've already been playing my current lists for a while now, that they just feel a little stale, but they are serving their purpose. After this tournament, I think I will be in a better spot mentally to mix things up and take some lumps if need be while I'm trying out something new. Also reminder for things like Zaal2 Immortals or Madrak1 Fennblades. Vengence only triggers if they were damaged by an enemy attack. Damage from Continuous effects do not trigger Vengence. Low powered corrosion Sprays & AoEs like Venom & Blood Rain that can apply corrosion without damaging their models are your friend as well as damage from sources that aren’t considered attacks like the Corruptor’s Burster (the initial shot will trigger it so try to take it on a friendly sacrifice or something nearby) or the Desecrator’s Void Field. Zaal2’s worst nightmare is probably Deneghra2 Dark Host. You can Breath Stealer all his Immortals to make them slow as hell & throw Desecrator Void Fields everywhere that he needs to walk around with his now miserable speed. You can Venom his Immortals to corrode them for a 66% chance to kill & deny Vengence, and when the lines finally do collide you have some of the hardest hitting weapon masters in the game. A Dark Host Deneghra2 should also have good game into the rest of Skorne since the Feat is just as effective in Dark Host as it is in BI.
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