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Post by dazzla on Jul 22, 2018 11:22:11 GMT
I am interested in people's thoughts on how the changing game is affecting Menoth. While the last Menoth CID appears likely to provide benefit, mainly by making several previously sub-par models at least competitive, the broad changes to the game still seem to leave Menoth in a worsening position. In particular, there are several key trends. One is the increasing number of models that have become fire immune or similar - a number of Crucible Guard models being the most obvious recent example. The other is the increasing access to magic weapons. The Ret CID looks like giving MHSF access to magic ranged attacks - that will seriously hurt Menoth in that match-up. I thought Passage was intended to enable Menoth's slow jacks to get across the table. The Menoth jacks were likely to eat the alpha, but passage meant that they were not being damaged too much by ranged attacks and then eating the alpha. However, increasingly that is exactly what is happening.
I do not know if it is the changing game or just my play style (or lack there of), but I have had much less success with Menoth than the other Factions that I played.
For what its worth I have now put my Menoth up for sale. However, I suspect it will be a hard sell - it appears where I am that interest in warmachine is way down and there is particularly limited interest in Menoth. This is a shame because I think that CID is a great process (even if I do not always agree with the outcomes - I still have trouble understanding how Khador tankers finished as strong as they did) and PP does listen. I still own Cygnar for now.
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 22, 2018 13:17:22 GMT
I think Protectorate is fine. We still have a very solid all round stable and can be really potent when we wanna be.
CiD creep sucks but at least our last one was pretty good and gives us more options.
Casters like Sevvy2, Harby, High Reclaimer, Vindictus all are super strong competativeley with either solid denial games, brute force, or typically a healthy mix of both.
Infantry coming into your meta? Sevvy2 will kill them all. He kills about 10-15 infantry models for me a game on his own.
Bricks coming your way? Thyra, High Reclaimer, Kreoss3 are all great options. Reznick 2 also has a solid brick breaking kit with Spell piercer and Curse.
Gunlines got you down? Durst, Amon, Vindictus can all laugh at them at deliver thier army.
We have a solid list of options and adaptability in our faction. It’s why I enjoy it so much.
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Post by paradox on Jul 22, 2018 15:29:08 GMT
Infantry bricks? Feora1.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jul 22, 2018 15:44:48 GMT
I disagree entirely and actually think the Protectorate is one or two releases/changes away from a breakout it hasn't seen since I started playing the game almost 10 years ago. To your specific points and why I'm not worried: The models actually immune to fire in Crucible Guard amount to their medium-based infantry, the CG Infantry, the Alchemists, Syvestro, and like one or two others. All 'jacks are now Alchemically Treated, which just means we roll one less die on damage against them from range. And there's a reason for that: because otherwise we would absolutely pound them into the ground with guns. CG 'jacks have a Legion defensive stat line and a Cygnar damage grid - and almost no way to buff that. Without that rule, they wouldn't stand a chance against us. And CG has to compete in the gunfight, because their melee threat ranges are static and the damage pitiful unless they start stacking a bunch of debuffs (which are largely neutered by Passage and smart placement). And Passage is super effective against them. The only heavy with a Magic shot is the Vindicator and it sacrifices its money shot (the weaponmaster one) to use it. The only other magic shooting they get is a CGI CRA or one dude from Alyce. And if you could handle Cygnar, Sloan, Strangeways, and Aiyana & Holt before, you have this easily in hand. What this means is that our fire-based infantry clearing is not terribly effective (Ashes to Ashes, Zealots, Cleansers, etc.). Broadly, these weren't being used anyway, so we really see minimal change. To Ret, most Protectorate players I know were shocked that the MHSF didn't have Magic Weapons, so I personally haven't seen a major shift in opinion. And even though they do, they only realistically threaten light 'jacks. They still die like utter chumps. Most Ret players aren't super excited by this change, and I can see why. One Redeemer still punks them whenever he feels like it, Judicator positively cackles with delight, and the squad just gives up the second a Vessel hits the table with Rhoven nearby. Ret already has access to higher quality Magic shooting than these chumps - and the type that sits back out of our threats, too. The big money piece in this CID, the Trident, doesn't have magic shooting. We're actually stronger against it than other armies are. I'll be interested to see where they sit after the CID, but Ret was already one of the factions that had the easiest time shooting us, and one of our tougher matchups in general. I don't really see that shifting in either direction (though I remain concerned about the Trident's Slipstream effect that nobody seems to be testing...) To counter, I think there's a ton to be excited about in the faction. Some hot takes: - The last CID did more than bring a couple of models up to par. The Indictor has several Hordes factions ready to rage. Fire of Salavation's Bond is rumored to be Divine Inspiration and he is rumored to be an Exemplar model. The Judicator went from being arguably the worst Colossal to making a case for being the best. Harby changes are still being complained about. Cinerators + CA are now a solid medium based unit that straddles a unique design space of defensive offense, which I think is seriously cool. Cyrenia is awesome. The church is awesome. Hand of Silence is awesome. Really, the Errant CA was the only thing I thought came out of CID milquetoast. Everything else got a shot in the arm - and in some cases, they mainlined steroids. Of course, it remains to be seen what we actually get, but if past CID ends are evidence, we have a lot to look forward to.
- We still have probably the deepest pool of competitive 'casters out there of any faction. Ask Cryx how they're feeling about 'casters like Mortenebra, Venethrax, Terminus, Skarre2, Sturgis2, etc. Ask Circle what they feel like are their competitive pairs and why half their Warlocks aren't considered. Ask Mercs why we're only seeing Ossrum and Magnus2 tear it up and where everyone else is. Heck, even look at Cygnar where at least half their 'casters see no serious competitive play. By comparison, we have a ton. Here's a quick hit list, going down War Room: Durst, Sevy1, Harby, Sevy2, Amon, Cyrenia, Kreoss1, HR, Kreoss3, Reznik2, Testament, Thyra, and Vindy. Kreoss2 might come up with the CID - we'll see. And the ones that are down aren't usually that far down. Feora1 is rock solid and a better answer into the metagame than some others. Feora3 can be a ball buster against the right army, but requires a more specific matchup. Reznik1 is awaiting his manlove Sevy0. And both Malekus and Durant2 are one release away from true greatness. The only 'caster we have that really needs help is Feora2. Except for limited factions, *no* other faction can possibly claim that.
- Our models are good and our theme forces are good to great. We have few duds. What is truly terrible in the faction? What theme is practically unplayable? Ask Circle why they don't play their Wolfsworn more or Secret Masters. Ask Legion how their Rotwings and Banshees are working out, or why we don't see more diverse Children of the Dragon lists. Ask Trolls why the only lists we're seeing are Band of Heroes or Storm of the North. Ask Cryx if they know what Infernal Machines even is. Ask Cygnar where the hell Rangers went. Ask Khador how much they love their themes and why Kossite Woodsmen aren't tearing up the meta.
- Building on that, our good stuff is really good, too. People *hate* Idrians, Champions of the Order of the Wall, Passage, Shielding, the Covenant, Allegiants, Flame Bringers, any time we shoot them, Enliven (because they forget we have it), Blessed, upkeep stripping, and more.
- We are competitive on SR 2018. Faithful Masses remains an astounding theme force. Guardians of the Temple promises to be pretty good too (just wait for it). Exemplar Interdiction is going to be well-featured. Even Creator's Might will get a shot with Sevy0.
I think we have a lot to look forward to. But, since your stuff is listed, got a Revelator? I need one.
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Post by groedius on Jul 22, 2018 17:04:13 GMT
When the CID changes hit and the new models I'll be very happy as I feel like it leaves us in a great place. Compared to other factions we have alot more that feels competitive as outlined above. I struggle to narrow it down to 2 casters for a tournament pairing as we have some great options.
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Post by cgdeth on Jul 22, 2018 17:27:06 GMT
- We still have probably the deepest pool of competitive 'casters out there of any faction. Ask Cryx how they're feeling about 'casters like Mortenebra, Venethrax, Terminus, Skarre2, Sturgis2, etc. Ask Circle what they feel like are their competitive pairs and why half their Warlocks aren't considered. Ask Mercs why we're only seeing Ossrum and Magnus2 tear it up and where everyone else is. Heck, even look at Cygnar where at least half their 'casters see no serious competitive play. By comparison, we have a ton. Here's a quick hit list, going down War Room: Durst, Sevy1, Harby, Sevy2, Amon, Cyrenia, Kreoss1, HR, Kreoss3, Reznik2, Testament, Thyra, and Vindy. Kreoss2 might come up with the CID - we'll see. And the ones that are down aren't usually that far down. Feora1 is rock solid and a better answer into the metagame than some others. Feora3 can be a ball buster against the right army, but requires a more specific matchup. Reznik1 is awaiting his manlove Sevy0. And both Malekus and Durant2 are one release away from true greatness. The only 'caster we have that really needs help is Feora2. Except for limited factions, *no* other faction can possibly claim that.
This ^^ this is why I still play protectorate and have no real desire to start another army.
"What are you playing?" Protectorate "That answered nothing."
IMHO: The allure of playing PoM is our ability to field a large range of threats and play styles.
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Post by paradox on Jul 23, 2018 0:29:02 GMT
RE Ret troospam, simply putting Feora1 in your pairing guarantees they drop the non-troopspam list, or you get a game strongly in your favor. Ive been there. Ive seen the Ret player reactions again and again. Shes a hard Nope to Battle Mages and Mage Hunters. And, frankly, dawnguard and houseguard too. Make sure you can tackle jacks and youre fine.
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Post by dazzla on Jul 23, 2018 0:52:28 GMT
Thanks for all the feedback. I am actually glad that people are feeling more positive then me and are doing well. I suspect that my play style and limitations as a player just did not fit well with Menoth strengths.
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Post by mydnight on Jul 23, 2018 1:29:04 GMT
Still my favourite faction because it really feels like I can actually make choices (deep bench).
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Post by toxichobbit on Jul 23, 2018 7:38:54 GMT
Thanks for all the feedback. I am actually glad that people are feeling more positive then me and are doing well. I suspect that my play style and limitations as a player just did not fit well with Menoth strengths. You do have the option of adapting rather than selling. So many players online use "playstyle" as a catch-all, restrictive term, but it doesn't have to be that way. Trying to make a faction play exactly the way you want to play the game is like using a screwdriver to nail something to a wall. It's possible, but not the best way to do things. Letting the factions strengths guide your development as a player is much more rewarding. You get to do things you couldn't do with previous factions and find new stuff you enjoy.
On the other hand, if you simply don't enjoy playing the faction for any reason then selling and looking for something you do enjoy is the way to go.
Good luck with whichever route you decide to go
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jul 23, 2018 14:31:05 GMT
RE Ret troospam, simply putting Feora1 in your pairing guarantees they drop the non-troopspam list, or you get a game strongly in your favor. Ive been there. Ive seen the Ret player reactions again and again. Shes a hard Nope to Battle Mages and Mage Hunters. And, frankly, dawnguard and houseguard too. Make sure you can tackle jacks and youre fine. Honestly, Feora2 still does super well into them as well. Escort and Fire Starter really punish Ret troops and let the Protectorate project threat vs their heavies. She needs one or two other things for me to recommend her more broadly, though.
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Post by paradox on Jul 23, 2018 15:43:09 GMT
RE Ret troospam, simply putting Feora1 in your pairing guarantees they drop the non-troopspam list, or you get a game strongly in your favor. Ive been there. Ive seen the Ret player reactions again and again. Shes a hard Nope to Battle Mages and Mage Hunters. And, frankly, dawnguard and houseguard too. Make sure you can tackle jacks and youre fine. Honestly, Feora2 still does super well into them as well. Escort and Fire Starter really punish Ret troops and let the Protectorate project threat vs their heavies. She needs one or two other things for me to recommend her more broadly, though. Feora2 lacks: Feora1s feat Wall of Fire Hex Hammer Blazing Effigy.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jul 23, 2018 16:53:48 GMT
Firestarter and her own Feat enable her to make sure important things are on and die to Fire. Escort also provides her a threat vector Feora1 does not.
That said, I'm not disputing that Feora1 is better into Ret. She is. She is also a better 'caster. I was just saying that, of all the factions out there, Feora2 still has good game into Ret.
It's one of the few she does, sadly.
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Post by paradox on Jul 23, 2018 19:29:39 GMT
Firestarter and her own Feat enable her to make sure important things are on and die to Fire. Escort also provides her a threat vector Feora1 does not. That said, I'm not disputing that Feora1 is better into Ret. She is. She is also a better 'caster. I was just saying that, of all the factions out there, Feora2 still has good game into Ret. It's one of the few she does, sadly. Feora2 just needs work. Period.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Jul 23, 2018 20:56:12 GMT
Apart from that, certain factions like Retribution and Cygnar pretty much negate the choir's non magical shooting denial, but it can still be strong even against certain lists or models in those factions. For example, thank god Helios still does not have a magic weapon!
I do agree though about immunity to fire seemingly being more available.
Maybe it's just that people have learned they need a list that has fire immunity. Not just for matches against Protectorate since other factions like trolls, dwarves and Legion have some very good fire based tech
But that is what our second list is for
if anything, I think our "soul taker" models that have the restriction of "destroyed by a continuous effect, an enemy attack, or collateral damage from an enemy attack" are facing more and more challenges. There are an increasing number of effects that are not considered attacks or remove from play options that I see more and more bad matchups.
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