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Post by kingensai on Jul 19, 2018 19:42:03 GMT
So, as I understand it, Lukas can maintain 6 juice tokens per turn with little consequence as long as we include Lynus & Edrea + Morely. Given that he's such a focus laden caster, I'd think that he should be running a 'jack heavy list since he can realistically fuel 2~3 of them while also casting spells. Is this the case? Or is he better off casting full time and using infantry as his main tool for attrition/scenario pressure?
How have you folks who have been running Lukas prefer him? I'm leaning toward Assault Troopers at the moment because he can focus on laying down clouds to protect them instead of fueling them in order to do work.
Current list concept:
Lukas Alyce Vindicator Liberator x2
Ragman Gorman di Wulfe Crucible Guard Mechanik Prospero Suppressor
Lynus & Edrea + Morely Max Assault Troopers Min Assault Troopers Max Storm Troopers
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jul 19, 2018 21:22:51 GMT
This is my current Lukas list: conflictchamber.com/#cf201b_-12lpltlslblF7kfC9ulClmlmlAlklkk8lDCrucible Guard Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Magnum Opus [Lukas 1] Aurum Legate Lukas di Morray [+29] - Liberator [10] - Retaliator [9] - Suppressor [13] - Aurum Ominus Alyce Marc [0(5)] Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist [4] Hutchuk, Ogrun Bounty Hunter [0(6)] Ragman [4] Combat Alchemists [7] Crucible Guard Assault Troopers (max) [13] Crucible Guard Assault Troopers (max) [13] Crucible Guard Storm Troopers (max) [16] Dragon's Breath Rocket [0(5)] Dragon's Breath Rocket [5] Lynus Wesselbaum & Edrea Lloryrr [5] - Doctor Adolpheus Morley [4] Hutchuck is good but not essential. Combat Alchemists are really good because Lukas can only cast 3 clouds on any given turn (without feating) if he upkeeps his 2 good upkeeps, and the Alchemists can turn 9" of cloudy goodness into 18" if you want; also, Ice Cages are real good. I really like having a decent ranged element in the list. It feels very necessary to bolster the otherwise slow nature of the list. Currently that means Storm Troopers, but when CGI come out they seem like a much stronger sub-in. Also, I don't think you want a battlegroup heavy list. Other casters run warjacks much better (Syvestro, Locke, Mackay, and Gearhardt all run a battlegroup better). Lukas' strength comes from his versatility with Infantry, I'd say. A cloud wall for the advance, a strong armor debuff, strong assassination threat all game, and good infantry buffs (Mirage and Iron Flesh).
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Post by kingensai on Jul 19, 2018 22:39:36 GMT
Wait, did I miss something? Does Lukas have a hard Juice counter limit? I thought he could theoretically have as many as he wants, limited by the fact that he'll kill himself very quickly if he gets greedy. I was working under the assumption that I have 11 focus + Harmonious to work with.
I'm curious about the Retaliator there. What's his purpose in the list? Also, I'm curious about how reliable that Liberator has been in terms of the arc node holding up. Seems to me like a bad run of luck could render it unable to arc after a few tries, which of course means that I'm giving up 10 points for redundancy when I could instead have a larger army.
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Post by Korianneder on Jul 20, 2018 1:53:08 GMT
You don't get a focus for each juice token on him (outside of feat turn anyway). Every other turn you only get +1 FOCUS for the tokens that were added that turn specifically, and you can only add up to 3 a turn. So outside of his feat he's capped at 8 focus personally.
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Post by kingensai on Jul 20, 2018 3:49:39 GMT
Oh ok, missed that little part.
Since we are running a really similar list, I'll take it that I'm going down what looks like the correct path for now. I'll give the list a shot and see how it shakes out.
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Post by danfromchicago on Jul 20, 2018 16:18:14 GMT
I believe Trancers will be strong with him. While he doesn't do anything to enable them specifically(aside from delivering them with clouds), they should help him in the scenario game.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jul 20, 2018 19:21:26 GMT
Wait, did I miss something? Does Lukas have a hard Juice counter limit? I thought he could theoretically have as many as he wants, limited by the fact that he'll kill himself very quickly if he gets greedy. I was working under the assumption that I have 11 focus + Harmonious to work with. I'm curious about the Retaliator there. What's his purpose in the list? Also, I'm curious about how reliable that Liberator has been in terms of the arc node holding up. Seems to me like a bad run of luck could render it unable to arc after a few tries, which of course means that I'm giving up 10 points for redundancy when I could instead have a larger army. Retaliators are really good utility, that's what they do. They have a boostable RAT6/Spray8 that can choose one of three attack types. Black Humor (Corrosion Continuous + Grievous) is what you'll use most often, and that's worth 9 points by itself. But you can also choose Aetheric Blast (crit knockdown + clouds are gone) spray type, which is invaluable when you are facing a cloud wall. Also, sometimes it means you just kill a warcaster. Yesterday, for example, I boosted an Aetheric Blast spray on Ravyn (DEF15) who was sitting behind a wall (because I was spraying some Mage Hunters anyway, so why not?). I rolled 3, 3 4. Ravyn is knocked down; now she is 99% dead to a spell assassination. Last, the Retaliator has Alchemical Accelerant, and once the CGI are released, they'll be in the list and able to get boosted damage rolls against any targets that the Retaliatory sprays first. The Retaliator is basically a Swiss Army Knife of awesome, for only 9 points. In terms of how reliable the Liberator is, well, it's all dice. You have a 33% chance each spell to lose an Arc Node Box. If that happens twice, no more channeling. I can't possibly tell you how reliable it is beyond that, because my anecdotal experiences are worthless when we're dealing with a very simple mathematical question. I can tell you that the chances of you not getting to channel more than 2 spells is very low (only a 10% chance to lose the arc node with the first two spells). I can also tell you that the Liberator is useful beyond its arc node. It is 13/19 with Ashen Veil, (which stacks with Burning Ash, by the way), and has a 2" POW13 chain weapon. It's worth bringing 1, and while a second is certainly not dead-weight, I find the opportunity cost to be too high.
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Post by kingensai on Jul 20, 2018 19:58:03 GMT
Wait, did I miss something? Does Lukas have a hard Juice counter limit? I thought he could theoretically have as many as he wants, limited by the fact that he'll kill himself very quickly if he gets greedy. I was working under the assumption that I have 11 focus + Harmonious to work with. I'm curious about the Retaliator there. What's his purpose in the list? Also, I'm curious about how reliable that Liberator has been in terms of the arc node holding up. Seems to me like a bad run of luck could render it unable to arc after a few tries, which of course means that I'm giving up 10 points for redundancy when I could instead have a larger army. Retaliators are really good utility, that's what they do. They have a boostable RAT6/Spray8 that can choose one of three attack types. Black Humor (Corrosion Continuous + Grievous) is what you'll use most often, and that's worth 9 points by itself. But you can also choose Aetheric Blast (crit knockdown + clouds are gone) spray type, which is invaluable when you are facing a cloud wall. Also, sometimes it means you just kill a warcaster. Yesterday, for example, I boosted an Aetheric Blast spray on Ravyn (DEF15) who was sitting behind a wall (because I was spraying some Mage Hunters anyway, so why not?). I rolled 3, 3 4. Ravyn is knocked down; now she is 99% dead to a spell assassination. Last, the Retaliator has Alchemical Accelerant, and once the CGI are released, they'll be in the list and able to get boosted damage rolls against any targets that the Retaliatory sprays first. The Retaliator is basically a Swiss Army Knife of awesome, for only 9 points. In terms of how reliable the Liberator is, well, it's all dice. You have a 33% chance each spell to lose an Arc Node Box. If that happens twice, no more channeling. I can't possibly tell you how reliable it is beyond that, because my anecdotal experiences are worthless when we're dealing with a very simple mathematical question. I can tell you that the chances of you not getting to channel more than 2 spells is very low (only a 10% chance to lose the arc node with the first two spells). I can also tell you that the Liberator is useful beyond its arc node. It is 13/19 with Ashen Veil, (which stacks with Burning Ash, by the way), and has a 2" POW13 chain weapon. It's worth bringing 1, and while a second is certainly not dead-weight, I find the opportunity cost to be too high. Excellent points, especially considering a swap of Shocktroopers to CGI. Retaliators make more sense in that context, I'll be sure to keep that in mind. Thanks for the help, I always appreciate your insight.
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Post by Valcaro on Sept 8, 2018 11:30:38 GMT
I think it's pretty safe to say that you will not be playing Prima Materia with him. Lukas really needs Magnum Opus to get all the medical attention (e.g. Linus&Edrea+Doc, Alyce) to be able to play into late game. Also you need at least one Liberator (probably just one) and fill up the army with mostly guns. Storm Troopers and CGI are probably the way to go. I'm considering picking Taryn Di La Roivissi too, for that sweet Shadow fire.
I'm not too sure, what else he needs. Building a list with him feels a little like building a list with Sylvestro. He can pick almost anyting.
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Post by Valcaro on Nov 15, 2018 9:04:21 GMT
So I did play a game with Lukas yesterday against issyria with a hyperion and double dawnmowers. Good lord, i got pretty much completely destroyed that game. Lukas did valiantly take on the hyperion and wrecked it with some assistance but there is like no game at all. I did pick two liberators and a vindicator for his bg, also prospero with a suppressor. Apparently playing a spell asassination list against a caster with arcane vortex isn't too great lol
That aside: He can really deliver some pain, unfortunately my Meta consists of a number of protectorate players as well as some ret and circle, so my perception is probably biased when I say: his Kit feels more limited than that of Baldwin/Mackay.
Conclusion is: I'm not sure, if Lukas does even want anything other than Vulcan+Liberator or just 3 lights (Liberator/Vanguad) in any combination. I still haven't figured out an effective way to run him. Any thoughts?
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Nov 15, 2018 21:52:53 GMT
So I did play a game with Lukas yesterday against issyria with a hyperion and double dawnmowers. Good lord, i got pretty much completely destroyed that game. Lukas did valiantly take on the hyperion and wrecked it with some assistance but there is like no game at all. I did pick two liberators and a vindicator for his bg, also prospero with a suppressor. Apparently playing a spell asassination list against a caster with arcane vortex isn't too great lol That aside: He can really deliver some pain, unfortunately my Meta consists of a number of protectorate players as well as some ret and circle, so my perception is probably biased when I say: his Kit feels more limited than that of Baldwin/Mackay. Conclusion is: I'm not sure, if Lukas does even want anything other than Vulcan+Liberator or just 3 lights (Liberator/Vanguad) in any combination. I still haven't figured out an effective way to run him. Any thoughts? Were you playing him in Prima Materia? Try Magnum Opus with infantry. Although Issyria sounds like a bad time for Lukas, but not just because of Arcane Vortex (although that is certainly part of it).
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Post by Valcaro on Nov 16, 2018 13:37:04 GMT
I was playing this: conflictchamber.com/#cf201b_-12lpltltlvlFlHlHlnlb9ulGlGlElElClmlkk8lDCrucible Guard Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Magnum Opus !!! Your army contains a pre-release entry. [Lukas 1] Aurum Legate Lukas di Morray [+29] - Liberator [10] - Liberator [10] - Vindicator [15] - Aurum Ominus Alyce Marc [0(5)] Crucible Guard Mechanik [2] Crucible Guard Mechanik [2] Prospero [0(5)] - Suppressor [13] Ragman [4] Rocketman Ace [4] Rocketman Ace [4] Trancer [3] Trancer [3] Combat Alchemists [7] Crucible Guard Assault Troopers (max) [13] Dragon's Breath Rocket [5] Lynus Wesselbaum & Edrea Lloryrr [5] - Doctor Alejandro Mosby [4] I don't think Lukas' current incarnation can play Prima Materia well if at all, because you'll have no healing at all and most of the time you can't ensure his survival until the feat turn without the madical attention Magnum Opus gives you. Now I know, this list isn't optimized and probably a bad choice against issyria, but I feel Lukas' kit is severely limited if your opponent has a way to deal with clouds in conjunction with having access to arcane vortex or any kind of spell ward. I did play him with Rocketmen and Shocktroops too, but not vs Issyria (played him into Laeleese Resistance with Crosse2) and it went much more smoothly. Still I'm not convinced, he wants to run an infantry heavy list, because even with more infantry, his bad matchups (same issyria) won't change.
Juris : do you have a prefered List for him? I just can pinpoint, what he wants to run in terms of army comp. It seems he can use anything, as nothing really stands out. I do like IF on Assault Troops though.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Nov 16, 2018 17:10:31 GMT
I was playing this: ... Juris : do you have a prefered List for him? I just can pinpoint, what he wants to run in terms of army comp. It seems he can use anything, as nothing really stands out. I do like IF on Assault Troops though. I think you have too many points spent on Warjacks and solos. You're losing out on a free card and I don't see any real benefit for it in that list. I think that the best build archetype for Lukas is one which focuses primarily on maximizing shooting output, while also delivering some strong melee infantry behind a cloud wall. This takes advantage of the incredible strength of Disintegrate on his card to give you a +4 ranged damage swing every turn. To do that, you obviously want to bring some effective guns. You also definitely want 2 DBRs (3rd free card). I like one unit of CGI in this role, because with Iron Flesh and a cloud wall they are very difficult to get rid of. If you go the route of CGI, then I think you also want a Retaliator to maximize their output on a target. For the above paradigm, I like the following build, spice to taste: Theme: Magnum Opus 3 / 2 Free Cards 59 / 75 Army Aurum Legate Lukas di Morray - WJ: +29 - Aurum Ominus Alyce Marc - PC: 0 - Suppressor - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Liberator - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Retaliator - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) Ragman - PC: 4 Gorman Di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist - PC: 4 Dragon's Breath Rocket - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 0 Dragon's Breath Rocket - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 0 Crucible Guard Infantry - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Crucible Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - PC: 4 Lynus Wesselbaum & Edrea Lloryrr - Lynus & Edrea: 5 - Doctor Alejandro Mosby - PC: 4 Crucible Guard Assault Troopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 13 Combat Alchemists - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 This list leaves 16 points unspent. A Railless is actually really good here. Storm Troopers are another solid choice. So are a second unit of Assault Troopers and a Trancer. There are a lot of options.
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Post by skathrex on Nov 20, 2018 15:33:52 GMT
I am actually most interested why you have no Trancers in your list. I mean they are probably not as valuable as they are with Syvestro but 1 or 2 always find spots of terrain to abuse well
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Post by disgruntledwargamer on Nov 21, 2018 4:37:09 GMT
I am actually most interested why you have no Trancers in your list. I mean they are probably not as valuable as they are with Syvestro but 1 or 2 always find spots of terrain to abuse well Took me a second too... but it has 16 points unspent. You could run max trancer at 12 points if desired, with another 4 point solo.
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