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Post by challenger on Jul 9, 2018 5:32:11 GMT
So, using the spoiled rules for Tharn we have:
Tharn Blood Pack - Cheap, melee POW is low, excels at killing infantry. their most notable ability is Hog Wild letting them shoot then run 12" to really skirmish.
Tharn Ravagers - Cheap, melee pow low except for on the charge. They want to mini feat and heart eater their way through infantry - This unit has a big risk of outshining the others. At 15pts they are cheaper than warmongers (per model) while also delivering the most accurate, highest pow attack. Under iona and a veteran leader you'll be delivering MAT 8 POW 18s, possibly on a unit with surefoot to take their statline to 15/18 with dodge and vengeance. When they do the thing everyone else does (kill infantry) but also has the ability to potentially crack armor the theme has a problem with, and are the most accurate troops, why would you do anything than start a DH list with 2x ravagers with UA?
Blood Trackers - Best ranged output for cost with Nualas new feat. But overall excel at... killing infantry
Tharn Bloodweavers - very low pow daggers means they are outclassed in every regard except for having grievous wounds. The proposed UA just makes them a little bit more accurate and hit a little bit harder while gaining a niche defensive ability
Tharn Wolf Riders - ranged skirmishers who have pretty good melee output. gets the best stats. Best target however? infantry. Even Iona only takes them to pow 12wm for a turn.
though not Tharn, the death wolves are also excellent infantry killers... who overtake... in that theme.
So essentially the problem is the 5 key units are massively overlapping with each other, and a secondary problem is i currently believe ravagers will outshine all the other units because of this.
my question to you all - how would you differentiate the units?
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Post by paradox on Jul 9, 2018 12:23:29 GMT
PS13 is not “low” melee power. Moderate, sure. But it’s not low.
As to bloodtrackers, I find they are pretty goid at downing harder targets. Good use of Prey and buffs or debuffs easily sees them throwing PS13WM shots. And though they are short ranged, they are also fast, letting you get in a solid number of shots. So I do not really see too much of an issue between bloodtrackers and ravagers.
Bloodpack might still struggle vs trackers, though, because they can lag in output and volume. We’ll have to see if hinted CID changes help this.
IMO, bloodweavers are more a specialist unit. They dont really excel at killing, but offer utility. Whether its worthwhile is debateable.
Wolf riders probably fall in with bloodpack in that the trackers probably offer a better solution. Where bloodpack have more range and treewalker, trackers have greater numbers and can hit harder. Where wolf riders have greater speed, trackers again have numbers and piwer, and better defensive stats and abilities. Both blood pack and wolf riders are kinda samey as well. Id really focus in on the roles of these units and how they square with trackers, more than anything else.
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 9, 2018 12:23:49 GMT
You’ll actually notice in all our themes we have a plethora of infantry hate.
If I were to choose dedicated roles for our units:
1: Blood pack: Hard hitting Long Range skirmishers targettong medoum to heavy targets then finishing them off with charges.
2: Ravagers: Mainstay Shocktroops. They currently fulfill this role with preloaded changes.
3: Trackers: Short Range shirmishing Unit. If you add repo 3 and the prey swap minifeat they do a good job there.
4: Bloodweavers: They are GW in a stick. I’m not sure how to help them out more without causing overlap. Healing and tough denial can be huge though.
5: Wolf Riders: Backline/flank harrassing Unit. I could see them hitting a little harder, or more accurately but now by much. They could probably just be cheaper and be OK
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Post by jisidro on Jul 9, 2018 12:50:29 GMT
Wolfriders had Prey/Hunter/Lucky on their javelins and still weren't seen as a good unit. I used them a lot in the Morv theme and they were very hit or miss... Sometimes great, sometimes an expensive speed bump.
I fail to see how 5 RAT 6 shots for 18pts harrass anything and be worth the price tag.
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Post by mindwormjim on Jul 10, 2018 0:34:10 GMT
To me Wolf Riders have always suffered from conflicting design. They want to operate like heavy shock cavalry, but they have the stats of light skirmish cavalry. As a result they tend to be poor/mediocre at both roles.
I see them as needing a complete review from the ground up so Privateer can figure out what the unit is supposed to actually be. I would personally want to see Backstab (a call out to Mk I) as that would make them excellent flankers but I doubt it would ever happen.
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Post by wolfchild on Jul 14, 2018 22:40:57 GMT
To me Wolf Riders have always suffered from conflicting design. They want to operate like heavy shock cavalry, but they have the stats of light skirmish cavalry. As a result they tend to be poor/mediocre at both roles. I see them as needing a complete review from the ground up so Privateer can figure out what the unit is supposed to actually be. I would personally want to see Backstab (a call out to Mk I) as that would make them excellent flankers but I doubt it would ever happen. Bloodpack are also conflicted in design with the Heart Eater rule trying to make them a melee unit while toting big bows with relative low output per point that suggests u wanna keep em out of melee. I don’t see Hogwild fixing that problem. Some of these options n overlap are going to come down to : How many points do I have left? Which models do I prefer? Rather than any one unit’s actual function/output. As it stands tho I suspect current favourites will stay the same in Bloodtrackers and Ravagers. The others only being used if points don’t allow n u find an ‘almost’ substitute from the others. |
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Post by elshinare on Jul 15, 2018 4:21:29 GMT
Gotta disagree on blood trackers...had blood Trackers take out a sacral vault and put damage on an ironback spitter in one turn under Baldur 1. I don't think those are considered soft targets, are they? given on the spitter I was rolling hot dice (I don't think I rolled under 14 which after all the math was an average of 2 damage)
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 15, 2018 9:55:16 GMT
Gotta disagree on blood trackers...had blood Trackers take out a sacral vault and put damage on an ironback spitter in one turn under Baldur 1. I don't think those are considered soft targets, are they? given on the spitter I was rolling hot dice (I don't think I rolled under 14 which after all the math was an average of 2 damage) So average damage on an arm 20 target for “boosted” pow 13’s (prey and SS) is around 33 is you have nualla. An ironback spitter is Arm 22 from guns. I think that’s some very high spiking dice and you cannot expect that every time. Trackers can reasonably kill a heavy if they have prey on it. But not much more than that. My issue with trackers is not damage output. They die way too easy and after you commit them they are super vulnerable. |
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Post by jisidro on Jul 15, 2018 13:43:55 GMT
They have Def 14,it's their only defense. What they need is a way to converge on a target and then scatter to reduce vulnerability and get out of the way... You know, Shield Wall unit style.
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Post by bloodhawk on Jul 15, 2018 15:59:11 GMT
They have Def 14,it's their only defense. What they need is a way to converge on a target and then scatter to reduce vulnerability and get out of the way... You know, Shield Wall unit style. You mean our "skirmishing" unit should have repo? No, that doesn't make any sense. *sarcasm* |
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Post by elshinare on Jul 15, 2018 17:53:35 GMT
Gotta disagree on blood trackers...had blood Trackers take out a sacral vault and put damage on an ironback spitter in one turn under Baldur 1. I don't think those are considered soft targets, are they? given on the spitter I was rolling hot dice (I don't think I rolled under 14 which after all the math was an average of 2 damage) So average damage on an arm 20 target for “boosted” pow 13’s (prey and SS) is around 33 is you have nualla. An ironback spitter is Arm 22 from guns. I think that’s some very high spiking dice and you cannot expect that every time. Trackers can reasonably kill a heavy if they have prey on it. But not much more than that. My issue with trackers is not damage output. They die way too easy and after you commit them they are super vulnerable. As I said...I had hot dice, but between baldur1 and prey that's pow 13 boosted rolls going in on a target...oh, and I forgot I hit the Vault with Hutchuck's throw too...So pow 15s on the Vault. |
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Post by wolfchild on Jul 15, 2018 23:48:42 GMT
So average damage on an arm 20 target for “boosted” pow 13’s (prey and SS) is around 33 is you have nualla. An ironback spitter is Arm 22 from guns. I think that’s some very high spiking dice and you cannot expect that every time. Trackers can reasonably kill a heavy if they have prey on it. But not much more than that. My issue with trackers is not damage output. They die way too easy and after you commit them they are super vulnerable. As I said...I had hot dice, but between baldur1 and prey that's pow 13 boosted rolls going in on a target...oh, and I forgot I hit the Vault with Hutchuck's throw too...So pow 15s on the Vault. So u can get them up to effective POW 15 with a particular combo and spiking dice to achieve your boasts. That’s a very niche way to boast about a units’ damage output. If I stacked that many boosts on most things they could take out way more than usual.... it ceases to be about the unit and more about the buffs n debuffs. |
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Post by elshinare on Jul 16, 2018 4:34:08 GMT
As I said...I had hot dice, but between baldur1 and prey that's pow 13 boosted rolls going in on a target...oh, and I forgot I hit the Vault with Hutchuck's throw too...So pow 15s on the Vault. So u can get them up to effective POW 15 with a particular combo and spiking dice to achieve your boasts. That’s a very niche way to boast about a units’ damage output. If I stacked that many boosts on most things they could take out way more than usual.... it ceases to be about the unit and more about the buffs n debuffs. eh...isn't that what optimising lists is about? finding a niche for a specific unit and the best armor/defense breaks you can throw out? |
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Post by onijet01 on Jul 16, 2018 10:40:39 GMT
Wow so much salt here. (Begins to dig in the salt mine)
Male tharns always have heart eater. Its more than just a rule taken into account from pp, it is core to the tharn culture. Ill be back after i research models a bit more, usually complaints come down to not u understanding the models in question.
But i hold back judgment until i have data.
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Post by paradox on Jul 16, 2018 15:28:31 GMT
Wow so much salt here. (Begins to dig in the salt mine) Male tharns always have heart eater. Its more than just a rule taken into account from pp, it is core to the tharn culture. Ill be back after i research models a bit more, usually complaints come down to not u understanding the models in question. But i hold back judgment until i have data. Are you suggesting that folks here who have actually been playing ravagers dont understand ravagers? |
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