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Post by cygnarstronk on Jul 6, 2018 8:25:52 GMT
Title says it all, these kind of things make me want to sell all and drop the game. Can't drive more than half an hour, spend time unpacking all my stuff, roll and deploy to then face an opponent I can't beat in any way unless he makes stupid mistakes.
My list was the usual siege2 gravediggers: ironclad, triumph, hitch, doggo, finn, ragman, A&H+murdoch, full infantry+UA, full commandos+UA+3WA, express team,2Xtrench busters.
His list was legion Tagrosh1 (dunno theme name): 2xcarnivean, typhoon, naga, 2xBattle engines, ice witches, 2xflying solo with spray (dunno the name).
I had first turn and alpha but his whole army outside of the typhoon was ARM22 against melee due to Tagrosh aura. His first turn was basically just running, didn't need to do much. My turn 2 he just had Throne out of the aura hat got harmed by Ayana and then minifeated on by the commandos, effective pow16 bombs destroyed it; on the otstther side some trencher infantry+feat from siege managed to get to a Carnivean and do damage, but they also needed buster to kill it including fury. In that moment I killed 2 heavy targets with my alpha not bad.
In his turn 2 everything got screwed. Sprays everywhere and also pseudo eleaps. The surviving BE just casually eats some free strikes (ARM 20+2 from tagrosh 36 boxes lol) and starts eating my trenchers negating tough. After each kill, he gets a free rat 7 spray or a free lighting generator shot at rat 7 lol. nearly all of my unit dies. The dead Carnivean gets resurrected to full health, while the surviving one has freaking 19 inches of TR with the assault spray and some boosts, so kills some more model(and ayana). Typhoon was behind the Throne killed by the commandos, they couldn't save themselves even with repo3 to open formation, 3 sprays with full boosts at 10 inches are just too much. He had one cavalry/flying solo also spraying and removing ragman from very far away.
By the end of his turn 2 I basically had triumph, 3 or 4 commandos, 3 trencher infantry, the ironclad, a buster and the express team. He had lost just a single throne cause the carnivean got resurrected. I couldn't use clouds cause full eyeless sight for reasons, I couldn't protect my models with dig in cause sprays, even with fury and damage buffs cracking ARM 20/22 30+boxes requires a stupid amount of work. I had 0 chances of winning the game unless he played so bad to get his caster killed, his only strategy was "run turn 1, eat my alpha, turn 2 spray and kill all my army".
WTF? Why should I even play the game if it is so one sided? Oh, the whole time he was reminding me that cygnar was OP and trenchers were OP while he was LITERALLY BUTCHERING my army with no effort. Yeah, cygnar hate, very fine lol. (side note, thrones at 16 points are stupid. 4 reach4 POW16+chain weapon attacks, mat and rat 7, after each kill free spray/lighting generator shot and at reach4 mat7 pow16 no tough he surely will kill about 3 models, easy. But somehow people complains about 18 points striders and nerf nemo3 lmao)
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 6, 2018 11:02:05 GMT
Technically that is not list chicken, that is just playing a bad match up. My suggestion would be that you each bring a list pairing, and swap lists like you would at a tournament, and then pick one to play. Alternatively you could discuss which match-ups you each want to test, and agree on one that suits both of you.
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Post by jisidro on Jul 6, 2018 11:14:32 GMT
Following the idea of Cygnar hate... You take a list that has a possible 7dmg swing/9dmg on commandoes. A Unit of commands shots at Throne killing it because of a casual +4 dmg swing for colossal lvl shots...
I submit to you that perhaps you didn't respect his threat and offense enough and should have gone for a multi-turn engagement instead of throwing everything and the kitchen sink at him.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 6, 2018 11:47:04 GMT
For reference, it sounds like the theme he played in was Oracles of Annihilation (spell casting stuff + beasts), the solos are Nyss Sorceress on Hellion. I'm not sure how his Throne killed your models while negating Tough. I might be missing something, but the Throne has Snacking, which RFPs on boxed, while Tough triggers on Disabled), so you can and should definitely Tough against his attacks, because if you pass the roll, he doesn't get his free spell. Dig In is still kind of useful, because it means his spray is his only option, but it can be partially countered by proper positioning. His other spells, Spine Burst and Ice Cage are not really viable against DEF 17. The Throne also doesn't have Eyeless Sight, so clouds are definitely useful here. Only Typhon and Carniveans have Eyeless Sight and they're RAT 5. Typhon also doesn't get fully boosted sprays, he needs to pay Fury to boost like everybody else.
It's probably not a great matchup for you, but it really does sound like you had no idea what abilities your opponent had, rushed everything in and then got gotcha'd, whether that's up to your opponent for not telling or up to you for not asking, I don't know.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Jul 6, 2018 11:56:12 GMT
Technically that is not list chicken, that is just playing a bad match up. My suggestion would be that you each bring a list pairing, and swap lists like you would at a tournament, and then pick one to play. Alternatively you could discuss which match-ups you each want to test, and agree on one that suits both of you. Sometimes we do the "bring two list like a tournament", and it works decently. It take a bit more to set the game up, meaning that we are probaly gonna sto playing even later, but it is doable. A big problem is that even with two list, chicken may happen. Let's think if we both had those lists, and two other lists that countered each other. It would just have been a flip of the coin, and if one of us chooses the "wrong" list we could well just not play the game and sleep, instead of going to bed 1:30AM just to auto lose and then have to face a day of work.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Jul 6, 2018 11:57:58 GMT
For reference, it sounds like the theme he played in was Oracles of Annihilation (spell casting stuff + beasts), the solos are Nyss Sorceress on Hellion. I'm not sure how his Throne killed your models while negating Tough. I might be missing something, but the Throne has Snacking, which RFPs on boxed, while Tough triggers on Disabled), so you can and should definitely Tough against his attacks, because if you pass the roll, he doesn't get his free spell. Dig In is still kind of useful, because it means his spray is his only option, but it can be partially countered by proper positioning. His other spells, Spine Burst and Ice Cage are not really viable against DEF 17. The Throne also doesn't have Eyeless Sight, so clouds are definitely useful here. Only Typhon and Carniveans have Eyeless Sight and they're RAT 5. Typhon also doesn't get fully boosted sprays, he needs to pay Fury to boost like everybody else. It's probably not a great matchup for you, but it really does sound like you had no idea what abilities your opponent had, rushed everything in and then got gotcha'd, whether that's up to your opponent for not telling or up to you for not asking, I don't know. He told me that everything outside the solos/witches had eyeless sight, and that the Thrones negated tough.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Jul 6, 2018 12:00:14 GMT
Following the idea of Cygnar hate... You take a list that has a possible 7dmg swing/9dmg on commandoes. A Unit of commands shots at Throne killing it because of a casual +4 dmg swing for colossal lvl shots... I submit to you that perhaps you didn't respect his threat and offense enough and should have gone for a multi-turn engagement instead of throwing everything and the kitchen sink at him. It's not that I didn't respect his threat, it's that I couldn't kill his stuff without committing nearly full units to the cause. To kill and ARM22 carnivean i need a whole lotta stuff (exactly triumph shots, 4 furied trenchers and a buster), that is then going to be in range of one of the Thrones, flying past them, killing them with reach 4 attack and spraying/spine bursting the stuff that I kept in reserve. Same thing with the Throne, I needed the full commando unit that was then in range of the opponent's sprays (as I had no other models that could kill the typhon on that side, and I was lucky that i could kill the cavalry solo with the express team) EDIT: spine burst is very strong if I had to charge with my infantry, since they aren't dug in. and I can't stop his models because he has sprays everywhere and flight on the thrones, meaning he just tank the free strikes at arm 22, gets behind my dudes and kills them.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jul 6, 2018 12:13:12 GMT
Technically that is not list chicken, that is just playing a bad match up. My suggestion would be that you each bring a list pairing, and swap lists like you would at a tournament, and then pick one to play. Alternatively you could discuss which match-ups you each want to test, and agree on one that suits both of you. Sometimes we do the "bring two list like a tournament", and it works decently. It take a bit more to set the game up, meaning that we are probaly gonna sto playing even later, but it is doable. A big problem is that even with two list, chicken may happen. Let's think if we both had those lists, and two other lists that countered each other. It would just have been a flip of the coin, and if one of us chooses the "wrong" list we could well just not play the game and sleep, instead of going to bed 1:30AM just to auto lose and then have to face a day of work. List chicken is just part of this game unfortunately, my only suggestion would be that in a casual gaming night setting you agree with your opponent on lists that will each give you a fair shot at winning.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 6, 2018 12:33:42 GMT
He told me that everything outside the solos/witches had eyeless sight, and that the Thrones negated tough. Sound like you need to educate him about his own rules and maybe kick his ass in a rematch in the progress While you're at it, he can only bring back beasts, so if you can, focus on killing the thrones and Hellions. The latter are not Dragoons so they're not that hard to eliminate. He also can't bring back stuff if it's not dead, so you have the option to RFP (I know this is rare in Cygnar) or by leaving them alive but crippled and applying Grievous Wounds to limit their effectiveness without giving him a feat target. A Carnivean without Mind and/or Spirit won't be doing much, same for Typhon.
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Post by Aegis on Jul 6, 2018 13:59:10 GMT
List chicken is something different...
Is when you have a list that dominates one of his, but get dominated by the other one. At that point, the whole game is decided by the list he picks.
What happened to you is to have your list countered (Other than some rules errors on his side it seems). It happens.
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Post by jagius021 on Jul 6, 2018 15:09:43 GMT
He told me that everything outside the solos/witches had eyeless sight, and that the Thrones negated tough. Golden rule.... RTFC! always read the firetrucking cards. Back in mk2 I'd get decimated by my good friends khador. Doom reavers seemed so damn busted, having spell ward, tough, Pathfinder, stealth, reach, berserk.... Something seems off with that right? Yeah I never checked to see if they ever actually had those abilities. He got confused once and it just stuck. I didn't learn better until I bought skorne and then wanted to compare nihilators.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Jul 6, 2018 15:28:48 GMT
So basically the state of the game is "you play the wrong list, get countered, wasted an entire night of gaming and sleep" + some errors on his side regarding his own models (casually making them OP, hum guess if he was cheating blatantly, I dunno). I'm still salty, but less than before.
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Post by jagius021 on Jul 6, 2018 15:54:20 GMT
Your mood won't improve if you keep conceptualizing things so negatively. Yes, it does suck to lose like that, and I get that it's making you upset. If you look at this as a wasted day, then you have all the weight what could have been pressing down on you. This is a "lesson learned" sort of situation. Try to grow from that. Read his cards, freshen up on the rules, and brainstorm. A lot of people from mk2 don't realize that snacking doesn't negate tough (I believe that's how it used to work, which would explain why so many players mix that up).
Orrrrr, build an anti thagrosh list and mop the floor with him. That might make you feel better too.
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 6, 2018 15:57:46 GMT
Always bring 2 lists man, its the only way to avoid bad match ups. Playing infantry into double throne is always gonna end bad.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 6, 2018 16:03:13 GMT
Title says it all, these kind of things make me want to sell all and drop the game. I've had days like that. It sucks. Well, the feeling will pass, until then maybe just jump into sometging completely different for a while. Like videogames or something.
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