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Post by streetpizza on Jun 29, 2018 13:41:55 GMT
In our CID wish list thread the subject of the Gnarlhorn's old animus keeps coming up. In the transition it changed from +2 movement on charges and slams with +2 to hit on those attacks (bounding) to its current no knock down no stationary version. Overall for the functionality of the gnarlhorn this isn't strictly speaking a bad change since it gives the gnarlhorn a way to guarantee its providing its function as a counter slam provider. So what about an animus that returns the +2" threat range to our beasts? In all fairness this animus wasn't even used that much in MKII (looking at competitive lists). A big reason being that druids were able to pull models in or people were already playing Kreuger2 or Kromac1 and didn't need the help to out threat their opponents or we were playing Morv2 and didn't care because the infantry were the stars. Also there was a huge opportunity cost in that if you cast bounding on a beast it wasn't also able to receive primal. As such trading well with bounding up was unlikely to produce good results. Enter the MKIII feral. With primal now being present on a heavy some truly powerful combinations could start to emerge which are likely to be too good. To understand lets start with his base threat range at spd 6. 6+3+1=10. Not bad for unbuffed and assuming warping str on that he's arriving at Mat 7 with P+S (16,17,17) with primal up that goes mat 9 (18,19,19) which is very respectable especially with 4 more attacks to be purchased. But wait he's got other warps, namely warping for speed so that unbuffed threat range is actually 12" albeit at -2 damage on the previously stated stats. Now with bounding he's suddenly up to 14" threat range before caster buffs and for the low cost of a single bought attack (call of the wild) he can now still have primal up. So 14" (presumably with pathfinder soon) with mat 9 and P+S (16, 17, 17). But wait we're not done. If you can tag something with hunters mark (black clad, Kaya3) He's now 16" if you tag a heavy near a caster or some other juicy target. We all know the drawbacks of HM and hitting but it needs to be accounted for. So in ANY call of the wild list we now have the possibility of a 16" pathfinding missile arriving with mat 9 and 5x P+S 17 and 1x P+S 16 attacks. From there you can apply all of the usual caster specific and solo buffs you want to arrive at truly ridiculous numbers. Kaya 1 - 16" threat and he comes back, Mat 11 Kaya 2 - 18" threat and he comes back and he's P+S 19/18 Kaya 3 - 16" threat and he does it without free strikes, possible Mat 12, P+S 20/19 Kromac 1 - 19" threat range, free charge (+1 attack) and boosted attack rolls Kromac 2 - 16" threat range with P+S 19/18 and mat 11, animus for free so +1 attack Kreuger 1 - 17" threat range and an additional 6x Pow 10 leaps Kreuger 2 - 20" threat range (TK enemy and feral) mat 11 for back arc Tanith - 16" threat range with P+S 19/18 and mat 11 Mohsar - 18" threat off of mirrage with possible P+S 19/18 with CoS Wurmwood - easy 19" possible 22" with use of Hellmouth and possible P+S 19/18 On any of our other beasts these numbers are actually pretty reasonable given the self limiting nature of the absence of primal and the lack of warping for speed. On the feral I don't think this is okay as this will trivially destroy casters and remain a super ranged threat throughout the entire game if you just preserve two beasts. I'm all for bounding but if we're going to reasonably lobby for its return I think we need to consider asking for primal to come off the feral as well. Another alternative would be to forget the whole bounding thing and instead focus on getting a +2" range on the stones teleport, and +1 spd buff to the goats. I mean seriously ... why are the nimble goats the same speed as a walking pile of rocks ...
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Post by sirk on Jun 29, 2018 14:09:08 GMT
This is a topic I've always being interested in since I was one of those players playing outside of Krueger/Brad/Morv and I suffered a lot from this change, so I gave a lot of thoughts about possible answers.
I agree that, with where the game is sitting now, a return of a straight +2" threat would probably be too much, expecially if the supposed CiD changes are going throught.
My proposal would be a different animus providing +2" spd and +2 mat for trample and slam attacks. This way we can keep the goat fluff (even more goatish if you ask me! ^^) AND get a situational threat extender. Considering the loss of initials I am sure it would be totally viable and not a game breaker while still retaining the option of a conditional extender. Also, it would situationally fix mat, another issue we have with several beasts. (it could also last one round, so having a minor sinergy with the rare counterslam)
My2cents-
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 29, 2018 14:11:48 GMT
Not even remotely close to overpowered, given the things that currently exist in the game.
I(n terms of long linear threat, I'm utterly unconcerned. Arkadius can put a Road Hog up to 22" upfield on feat turn. Strakhov can manage a 15" threat on a jack...before overrun. Mortenebra1 is similar. Even Carver can put a Road Hog onto something 15" away with just mobility + Hunters Mark (and it can have primal or rage on top of that, plus feat if necessary). Kraye can get a Stormclad to 17'. And so on. Long threat ranges are a part of the damn game, and considering that Circle living beasts can't take a hit, it is not unreasonable to expect us to have max threat ranges on par with other factions.
This is also misleading, because A) you're factoring hunter's mark into extreme threat ranges and B) you're ignoring the fact that the feral is not hitting hard if he's warping speed (no primal from the caster if he gets bounding). Hunter's mark has a 16" threat from the blackclad's' starting location. If you want to get it on something 18" away from your feral, you need to have your blackclad 2" in front of your feral for a turn (and thus he is likely dead). Add in counterplay with arcane vortex, spellward, choir, or just a reasonable defense, and...yeah. Not concerned. There are many worse things in this game than a pillowfisted beast charging kinda far when the stars align perfectly and your opponent derps his models into the perfect position.
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Post by sirk on Jun 29, 2018 14:17:32 GMT
Oh, and since we are at it, I would complete the Gnarlhorn with: Impetuos Slam: this model gains Bulldoze while performing a Slam power attack. Fixing once a for all the absurdity of a counter move that is almost impossible to make happen. This way there wouldn't be the need to a p+s increase for the gnarlhorn (maybe it could go down 1pt) since it would be a support/softhitter and it wouldn't compete in the same narrow space of the riphorn (and feral). I'm sure the current proposed str upgrade for him it's not gonna work, or it's just moving the problem: we cannot have 3 beasts in the 12-16 range that are only supposed to punch, probably two of them won't just be played. PS: I agree with oncomingstorm that factoring in Hunter's Mark in the 16" or more range is at very best optimistic (and you probably also need a stone teleport of the Wayfarer in order to do it or a VERY situational battle wizard use).
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 29, 2018 14:25:00 GMT
Not even remotely close to overpowered, given the things that currently exist in the game. I(n terms of long linear threat, I'm utterly unconcerned. Arkadius can put a Road Hog up to 22" upfield on feat turn. Strakhov can manage a 15" threat on a jack...before overrun. Mortenebra1 is similar. Even Carver can put a Road Hog onto something 15" away with just mobility + Hunters Mark (and it can have primal or rage on top of that, plus feat if necessary). Kraye can get a Stormclad to 17'. And so on. Long threat ranges are a part of the damn game, and considering that Circle living beasts can't take a hit, it is not unreasonable to expect us to have max threat ranges on par with other factions. This is also misleading, because A) you're factoring hunter's mark into extreme threat ranges and B) you're ignoring the fact that the feral is not hitting hard if he's warping speed (no primal from the caster if he gets bounding). Hunter's mark has a 16" threat from the blackclad's' starting location. If you want to get it on something 18" away from your feral, you need to have your blackclad 2" in front of your feral for a turn (and thus he is likely dead). Add in counterplay with arcane vortex, spellward, choir, or just a reasonable defense, and...yeah. Not concerned. There are many worse things in this game than a pillowfisted beast charging kinda far when the stars align perfectly and your opponent derps his models into the perfect position. I haven't ignored either of those points storm and in fact they're listed right in the text. The feral is hitting hard without warping str as discussed that used to be draw back but being able to primal on arrival changes the math significantly. All of your long threat ranges discussed are caster specific. This is 16" before caster application. Getting up to 22" with wurmy is pretty damn high.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 29, 2018 14:38:34 GMT
Oh ... stormraptor too I guess if deceptively mobile goes through.
Kromac1 could send it 7spd+3 warpath+2 bounding +2 HM (questionable) +3 charge +2 reach = 19" with boosted mat 6 P+S 18 and pow 12 electro leaps from 6 attacks.
18" on Una2's feat turn with HoF or 16" with kaya3 at the usual +3/+3 for synergy.
All with flight.
Caveat being landing space and all that usual jazz for a gargantuan.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 29, 2018 15:06:10 GMT
streetpizzaI think you have to do the math on a few other beast/jack missiles present in the game for comparision. Here are 2 that I have seen up close as personal (as in, wandered a couple of inches out of my deploy and got hit): - Molik Arn + Makeda1: 15"+Side Step+IGNORING THE LASH on the idea that the armies haven't clashed if they did you can add another 3"(Quicken + Rush) at MAT 9 (Carnage + Future Sight), P+S 16WM (Futu Sight) w/Free charge - Mammoth + Makeda1 (To give a non character beast version): 13" + Carnage + Enrage w/free charge. - Stormclad with Haley2: 10" base + 4 TK + Temporal + Hunter Mark from Lanyssa = 18", MAT 7, P+S 19 with extra attack. (Not in Heavy Metal, possible in all other themes). Add feat to taste. I don't think we'll get it because of the possible threat increases 2 are outside warlock sources and we are doing ok result-wise.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 29, 2018 15:16:25 GMT
Not even remotely close to overpowered, given the things that currently exist in the game. I(n terms of long linear threat, I'm utterly unconcerned. Arkadius can put a Road Hog up to 22" upfield on feat turn. Strakhov can manage a 15" threat on a jack...before overrun. Mortenebra1 is similar. Even Carver can put a Road Hog onto something 15" away with just mobility + Hunters Mark (and it can have primal or rage on top of that, plus feat if necessary). Kraye can get a Stormclad to 17'. And so on. Long threat ranges are a part of the damn game, and considering that Circle living beasts can't take a hit, it is not unreasonable to expect us to have max threat ranges on par with other factions. This is also misleading, because A) you're factoring hunter's mark into extreme threat ranges and B) you're ignoring the fact that the feral is not hitting hard if he's warping speed (no primal from the caster if he gets bounding). Hunter's mark has a 16" threat from the blackclad's' starting location. If you want to get it on something 18" away from your feral, you need to have your blackclad 2" in front of your feral for a turn (and thus he is likely dead). Add in counterplay with arcane vortex, spellward, choir, or just a reasonable defense, and...yeah. Not concerned. There are many worse things in this game than a pillowfisted beast charging kinda far when the stars align perfectly and your opponent derps his models into the perfect position. I haven't ignored either of those points storm and in fact they're listed right in the text. The feral is hitting hard without warping str as discussed that used to be draw back but being able to primal on arrival changes the math significantly. All of your long threat ranges discussed are caster specific. This is 16" before caster application. Getting up to 22" with wurmy is pretty damn high. You mentioned the issues with hitting Hunters Mark (which is one half of the problem). The other issue is range. The Blackclad should almost always not be out in front of your army, and projects a limited threat range. If he is out front, a good opponent (and I prefer to assume I am not playing against a potato) will remove him or mitigate his ability to hit relevant, low DEF targets. Also relevant: You’re assuming that the opponent is going to allow you to pull off your long-threat range linear threat into something important without jamming the charge lane with something less important, which is a big assumption. Many of the threat ranges you listed also require your caster’s entire fury stack to pull off, and/or are highly situational (ie if Wurmwood pulls a double hellmouth, he’s either absurdly well-positioned from last turn (and your opponent failed to take advantage of it), of he’s running on empty (2xhellmouth + dark path to keep the feral in control, and you’re also not getting CoS on top of that). Finally, even if your plan does off without a hitch, and you manage to alpha a feral from slightly-further-than-otherwise into something…All you’ve done is initiated a piece trade, starting with a beast that is very likely as or more expensive than the thing you’ve killed. If your opponent plays like a potato, and gives you a direct line on their caster, or lets you alpha an expensive key heavy off the table, that’s not something to balance around.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 29, 2018 15:28:28 GMT
I would imagine the rationale behind the change in animus from Mk2 to Mk3, is that they felt that 'Earths Blessing' was something all Circle Warlocks needed/should to have access to. If they had just left it on the Woldwatcher, then themes that only allow living warbeasts would never be able to access Earths Blessing.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 29, 2018 15:33:10 GMT
I would imagine the rationale behind the change in animus from Mk2 to Mk3, is that they felt that 'Earths Blessing' was something all Circle Warlocks needed/should to have access to. If they had just left it on the Woldwatcher, then themes that only allow living warbeasts would never be able to access Earths Blessing. Bounding could go on the Riphorn. Or the Shadowhorn (he 'bounds', after all). Or the Riphorn could get earth's blessing, and the Gnarlhorn bounding. There are options here, is what I'm saying.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 29, 2018 15:34:50 GMT
If by limited threat range you mean 18" from where he's standing in the shifting stones ... then yeah ... limited.
You talk about blockers like we don't have other models that can participate to remove screens with abilities like sprint.
Wurmwood can be in the stones. Not hard to do. You don't need to account for unseen path.
You can cherry pick the counter examples but the fact remains its a base 16" threat with every single caster in our roster. EVERY SINGLE CASTER. Not just caster specific combinations like have been listed in counter examples. It gets worse when we factor in circle casters. Remember I'm specifically stating that its a feral problem, not a general best problem, because you can primal after you go in. Long threat ranges aren't necessarily bad. Long threat ranges with a big caster independent buff after are.
Other wise we'd have things like the stalker and Gehtorix mattering here too but when you remove primal from the equation its a reasonable trade off. +2" threat for the loss of hitting power and Mat. If the feral gave up primal (especially primal for 1 fury in CotW) I don't think we'd have an issue here.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 29, 2018 15:34:57 GMT
I would imagine the rationale behind the change in animus from Mk2 to Mk3, is that they felt that 'Earths Blessing' was something all Circle Warlocks needed/should to have access to. If they had just left it on the Woldwatcher, then themes that only allow living warbeasts would never be able to access Earths Blessing. Bounding could go on the Riphorn. Or the Shadowhorn (he 'bounds', after all). Or the Riphorn could get earth's blessing, and the Gnarlhorn bounding. There are options here, is what I'm saying. #options
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 29, 2018 15:51:24 GMT
I would imagine the rationale behind the change in animus from Mk2 to Mk3, is that they felt that 'Earths Blessing' was something all Circle Warlocks needed/should to have access to. If they had just left it on the Woldwatcher, then themes that only allow living warbeasts would never be able to access Earths Blessing. Bounding could go on the Riphorn. Or the Shadowhorn (he 'bounds', after all). Or the Riphorn could get earth's blessing, and the Gnarlhorn bounding. There are options here, is what I'm saying. I was thinking the riphorn would be perfect to give him a reason to be in lists over the feral. That's what led me to thinking about the combo.
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Post by sirk on Jun 29, 2018 16:02:59 GMT
Would you druids think about my proposal? (+2" SPD and +2 MAT for trample and slam power attacks) I think it could work but I'd like some feedback
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Post by bloodhawk on Jun 29, 2018 16:29:50 GMT
Here is the way I look at it. Circle lost almost all of its movement tricks in MkIII, and it has already been stated that the hit and run style was too powerful. If that's the case, we have to have some other way to play. Right now, we don't have that. Improving our threat ranges by a static 2 inches, if we take the beast with the appropriate animus, would be one way to give us an identity. That identity would be as a faction with long threat ranges. I fail to see how this would be too powerful in the context of the game. Yes, we can get long threat ranges in some cases without a static plus 2, but we are a faction which is almost required to out threat an opponent in order to compete with COTW.
We don't hit that hard outside of a few specific casters, and if we use primal we lose our model for an entire turn (an enormous opportunity cost that virtually no other faction in the game has to deal with). Finally, we also rely on the outdated defense stat which is so easily negated as to be laughable. Sure, an opponent will miss here and there, but with a 27 box Arm17 stalker it literally won't matter. He dies to a stiff breeze. Not to mention the Feral is Arm 16 if he does one of his other warps, which is horrendous for a heavy.
So in summary, we can hit hard, but only in specific scenarios, we die easily, and without some sort of caster independent speed buff we are also pretty slow. Not to mention our changes still give us one more expensive sets of beasts in the game, so we can't piece trade effectively with Warpwolves. TBH, if we had bounding as an option but no hunter's mark in COTW I would be much less concerned about this issue, but as it stands I am loathe to the idea of gambling my game on a hunters mark hitting. I am pretty much planning to include eilish and or the croc pot in all my COTW lists just to help ensure I can hit a hunters mark when it is needed. Although even with that it is still a bit of a crap shoot.
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