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Post by Sarcastastic on Jun 5, 2018 4:35:12 GMT
So, Mercs is the place for this sort of behaviour (looking at my Rhulic comrades) where you just want to really run that flavourful army. For me, that is Steelheads. I'm sure it's been discussed before, and I thought them getting some (minor) love on Stryker-1's card might do something for them, but they still feel very mediocre. Meanwhile, Halberdiers continue to always amaze me with how much I get out of those fragile soldiers. So what do their shootier counterparts need?
My first thoughts is their abysmal threat range, since with Combined Arms, it's not so much an accuracy problem as much as it is I never seem to have them where I want them to be. I feel like that or maybe one or two other things on their card might help them perform. Something to justify their cost.
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psyllus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by psyllus on Jun 5, 2018 5:09:37 GMT
How about increasing their RNG to 12? It would set them apart from our other ranged units.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Jun 5, 2018 5:15:41 GMT
How about increasing their RNG to 12? It would set them apart from our other ranged units. cant. militry rifle is a standard weapon type. dey need a ua wid minifeat snipe, and granted war tempered
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Post by onijet01 on Jun 5, 2018 6:45:03 GMT
No actually if anything they would bebifite from most is "Precision Strike" on a solo that can affect them.
Weather it is a command buff or action buff this one ability would raise the effect of the Stealhead Rifflemen to over the top.
Its an underated ability compared to War Tempered but is worth so much more on a already accurate unit. (Assumming cra or Damiano 1 buff)
Precision Strike- models can reroll one ranged damage roll once per ranged attack
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Post by borderprince on Jun 5, 2018 9:15:18 GMT
In general, I think if Steelhead Riflemen improve, it should be in the context of Steelheads in general, rather than as a standalone unit. Steelheads are meant to be about working together so the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
1 - Stannis being both a free option in Irregulars and generally cheaper. He's over-priced for what he brings, but can really help the Riflemen. He lets them shoot models engaging the Halberdiers to unjam them, who can then go and do their thing elsewhere. Only really works with Damiano at present (Aim + Coin + Deadeye means effective RAT9 + 3D6 shooting into melee), but it is a nice option with him.
2 - War-Tempered would be really valuable, especially in combination with Stannis. Aim + CRA would enable the Riflemen to shoot into melee much more effectively, and not limit that ability to Stannis. It would be different to lots of shooting units and synergistic. Whites of their Eyes could work instead, but doesn't fit so well with the CRA focus of the Steelhead Riflemen.
3 - Reform (maybe only 3") - advance through the Halberdiers, shoot, then move back, while the Halberdiers move forwards to screen. Keeps the combined-arms feel of the Steelheads, but also helps protect them from melee a little, at least from charges. Alternatively, perhaps let Damiano give more than one coin to a unit a turn. This would only ever benefit the Riflemen as Halberdiers can't using Moneyshot and Cavalry already have Reform. But I'd rather make them less dependent on being fielded with Damiano.
And as Shoe noted, it's hard to change the weapon profile, as their gun is explicitly meant to be the same as that used by Trenchers and others. A Double Powder ration mini-feat ability could work.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 5, 2018 9:34:08 GMT
**Warning! Cross-Faction Comparison Inbound**
I guess the most similar unit to compare them to would be Trencher Infantry, as they both have similar stats and identical weapons. Trenchers cost 2 points more for the min and max units, but for that 2 points you get:
- +1 mat - +1 rat - Tough - Smoke Bombs - Assault - Advance Deployment - Dig-in - Brutal Charge
The only thing the Steelheads have over Trenchers is Combined Arms.
Now I am not saying Steelhead Rifleman should become Trencher Infantry, but I think they could afford to go down a point or two.
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Post by onijet01 on Jun 5, 2018 11:15:35 GMT
**Warning! Cross-Faction Comparison Inbound** I guess the most similar unit to compare them to would be Trencher Infantry, as they both have similar stats and identical weapons. Trenchers cost 2 points more for the min and max units, but for that 2 points you get: - +1 mat - +1 rat - Tough - Smoke Bombs - Assault - Advance Deployment - Dig-in - Brutal Charge The only thing the Steelheads have over Trenchers is Combined Arms. Now I am not saying Steelhead Rifleman should become Trencher Infantry, but I think they could afford to go down a point or two. Actually the most common infantry to compare them to would be Trencher Longgunners no UA. To be frank as the roll of the two units are both primarily ranged expertise. Unlike the Trencher Infantry whom are a more all rounded unit. Not to discredit your point as it is viable about the point drop but wrong unit to compared
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 5, 2018 11:51:46 GMT
**Warning! Cross-Faction Comparison Inbound** I guess the most similar unit to compare them to would be Trencher Infantry, as they both have similar stats and identical weapons. Trenchers cost 2 points more for the min and max units, but for that 2 points you get: - +1 mat - +1 rat - Tough - Smoke Bombs - Assault - Advance Deployment - Dig-in - Brutal Charge The only thing the Steelheads have over Trenchers is Combined Arms. Now I am not saying Steelhead Rifleman should become Trencher Infantry, but I think they could afford to go down a point or two. Actually the most common infantry to compare them to would be Trencher Longgunners no UA. To be frank as the roll of the two units are both primarily ranged expertise. Unlike the Trencher Infantry whom are a more all rounded unit. Not to discredit your point as it is viable about the point drop but wrong unit to compared I don't think Longgunners are a good comparison, their guns are different which is the most important feature. Yes Trencher Infantry are more all-rounders by virtue of all their extra rules, but they still have the same weapon, which is the most important thing for a direct comparison
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Post by onijet01 on Jun 5, 2018 14:42:00 GMT
I still trongly disagree with that thinking.
My oppinion is that a comparison should always be made by using "Same or Like" rolled models only.
Using "Differently" rolled models is detrimental to the game development when comparing. Especialy when the case is based off of a single weapon a model has. If thats the case also compare the models to Ferrow Brigans and Dawnguard Invictors, Because like the military riffle they are also range 10. And o would accept the argument.
Like i said we should look at a unit whos primary roll is ranged combat and compare.
Like Rolled Models (my personal comparison base) and Same weapon stats (forum comparison) -Longgunners (both flavors) (rng 14 pow 10 duelshots) -Most Trencher Models (military riffle) -Winterguard Rifflemem (rng 14 pow 10 rof 1) -Dawnguard Invictors (rng 10 pow 12 rof 1) -Housguard Rifflemen (rng 14 pow 10 rof 1) -Ferrow Brigans (rng 10 pow 12 rof 1) -Pyg Bushwackers (rng 14 pow 10 rof 1) -Exemplar Errants (rng 10 pow 10 rof 1) -Hammerfall Highsheilds (rng 10 pow 10 rof 1) -Iridian Skirmishers (rng 10 pow 11 rof 1) -Venator Reivers (rng 12 pow 10 rof 1) -Venator Slingers (rng 10 pow 10 rof 1) -Blighted Niss Archers (rng 10 pow 10 rof 1)
The list goes on. Like i said its best to compare like rolles models
A list i would compare are models who do a strickly similar roll. And as i stated really all the...
STEALHEAD RIFFLEMEN cane use most is a solo that would grant "PRECISION STRIKE" as it allows the models when using a CRA the ability to reroll both attack and (cra and non-cra) damage rolls once each. It is the very ability that takes a fair concept unit and makes it a competitively viable option.
Look to cygnar between longgunners and trencher longgunners to see wht the latter is clearly much more played.
Rerolling damage is a powerful ability and is the best way to optimise a ranged unit
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 5, 2018 14:56:33 GMT
onijet01They don't just share a military rifle, they have identical defensive stats 13/13, spd and p&s 9 melee weapon. That cannot be said of Farrow Commandoes and Invictors. They are the same basic 'chassis' if you like, just with a 2 point difference and one has a whole host of extra rules tacked on. Take a look at that list of rules the Trencher Infantry have and ask yourself: 'is this worth more than 2 points on the cost of a 10 man unit?' - +1 mat - +1 rat - Tough - Smoke Bombs - Assault - Advance Deployment - Dig-in - Brutal Charge I would say yes, and as Trencher Infantry are reasonably costed imho, I can reasonably conclude that Steelhead Rifleman are overcosted.
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Post by fallenexile on Jun 5, 2018 15:06:14 GMT
I think you're both right, in different ways. Longgunners would be the best unit to compare to in terms of role and trenchers are best to compare for stats. So the points cost of Rilemen either needs to be reduced a bit or They need to gain some abilities to make them worth it.
They already reroll CRA attacks. How many rerolls do we want to waste our clock on each turn?
I would suggest something to allow them to help unjam Halbies, like the ability to shoot through Steelheads (or other friendly models?) and ignore the penalties for shooting into melee. Or the ability to shut down charge lanes via Covering Fire or even Sentry Fire. With these changes, I'd maybe give them a 1 point increase.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Jun 5, 2018 15:12:28 GMT
While I agree that it would be best to compare them to longgunners over trenchers, I disagree on what they need. They already reroll CRA attacks. How many rerolls do we want to waste our clock on each turn? I would suggest something to allow them to help unjam Halbies, like the ability to shoot through Steelheads (or other friendly models?) and ignore the penalties for shooting into melee. Or the ability to shut down charge lanes via Covering Fire or even Sentry Fire. stannis alreddy lets dem shoot through other models. u want mini Feat snipe for a turn of alpha strike and granted war tempered to unjam
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 5, 2018 15:15:03 GMT
On the subject of what could change, I don't think they need a UA or solo, Steelheads are meant to be 'cheap, numerous and effective', they are the back-to-basics merc infantry of the Iron Kingdoms, they don't need fancy UAs, they just need to drop down to 12 or 13 points for a full unit.
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Post by onijet01 on Jun 5, 2018 15:56:53 GMT
onijet01They don't just share a military rifle, they have identical defensive stats 13/13, spd and p&s 9 melee weapon. That cannot be said of Farrow Commandoes and Invictors. They are the same basic 'chassis' if you like, just with a 2 point difference and one has a whole host of extra rules tacked on. Take a look at that list of rules the Trencher Infantry have and ask yourself: 'is this worth more than 2 points on the cost of a 10 man unit?' - +1 mat - +1 rat - Tough - Smoke Bombs - Assault - Advance Deployment - Dig-in - Brutal Charge I would say yes, and as Trencher Infantry are reasonably costed imho, I can reasonably conclude that Steelhead Rifleman are overcosted. Actually the p+s melee weapons are different. Damage may be the same but not range. Outside of a single weapon and the AVERAGE def and arm values for infantry in this game they are not alike. I can agree they are slightly over cost but shine when played with a caster to maximize them Fyi also trencher infantry dispite being the common infantry in cygnar are elite military troopers. Not conscripted soldiers. (Fluff rant done) Whats bugging me personally is the hang up of trying to make mercs have a trencher unit out of theme just built it. I know thats not your goal cygnar but to me it reads that way. I still say dispute the clock being eaten up for re rolls the stealheads should be able to make good use of that ability. All war tempered does is grant a cra into melee, but with rerolls and aiming and a coind damiano fixes the problem Magnus and osrum(i think) brings snipe. Damiano brings both a buff and dice addition. Ashlynn brings a massive dice fixing feat, caine 3, constance 1, and others bring def debuffs or feats that move around models. If the primary argument is something like. ... they need to unjam halbadiers... mercs have alot of caster options that help with that. What they need is the ability to optimize their ranged damage potential in a faction that has no ability to boost or add damage dice to ranged attacks outside of battle group models. Shooting more accuratly into a jammed unit means nothing if your shot lacks the punch to kill the target on average dice. So any unit jamming with arm 18 or above would still be just as effective with accuracy or not. Maximizing ranged damage is what the stealheads need and a reroll damage ability or a auto wound ability would make them viable more as a unit than any other buff.
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Post by Charistoph on Jun 5, 2018 18:49:42 GMT
On the subject of what could change, I don't think they need a UA or solo, Steelheads are meant to be 'cheap, numerous and effective', they are the back-to-basics merc infantry of the Iron Kingdoms, they don't need fancy UAs, they just need to drop down to 12 or 13 points for a full unit. I have to agree with this sentiment.
However, I would still like the option of a decent CA, but more importantly, a WA, or better yet, a selection of different types of WA to provide flavor as to where the unit comes from.
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